Question about the homophobia thread

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

There are apparently two posters accusing me of misinterpreting the statement about "unethical doctors" and now both of them are claiming they didn't post the message that said that. So, I went back to check and it is true that it wasn't you who wrote that. But, the other poster, who actually did write it, is also denying it for some reason. I apologize for confusing the two of you.

But, you ignored the primary point of the post that led to this diversion. If you believe that all voices should be heard, then you can set an example for all of us. When you post about those who detransition, be sure to mention how they are exploited by those who are anti-trans and that some of them reverse their decision again and retransition.

Will you be mentioning detransitioners everytime you post on the subject?

No, I am not the one arguing that all voices should be heard.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

There are apparently two posters accusing me of misinterpreting the statement about "unethical doctors" and now both of them are claiming they didn't post the message that said that. So, I went back to check and it is true that it wasn't you who wrote that. But, the other poster, who actually did write it, is also denying it for some reason. I apologize for confusing the two of you.

But, you ignored the primary point of the post that led to this diversion. If you believe that all voices should be heard, then you can set an example for all of us. When you post about those who detransition, be sure to mention how they are exploited by those who are anti-trans and that some of them reverse their decision again and retransition.

This is my reply to that.

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

Yes, some people “retransition.” Is it because they are constantly threatened by activists? Is it because the only ones standing up for them are republicans?

I can’t help but wonder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you spend any time on r/detrans you’ll see many detransitioners feel like they were young and impressionable children when they were put on puberty blockers, estrogen, testosterone….or when they had sex-reassignment surgery.

It’s pretty tragic.

“What happens when you’re wrong?”

Crickets.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

There are apparently two posters accusing me of misinterpreting the statement about "unethical doctors" and now both of them are claiming they didn't post the message that said that. So, I went back to check and it is true that it wasn't you who wrote that. But, the other poster, who actually did write it, is also denying it for some reason. I apologize for confusing the two of you.

But, you ignored the primary point of the post that led to this diversion. If you believe that all voices should be heard, then you can set an example for all of us. When you post about those who detransition, be sure to mention how they are exploited by those who are anti-trans and that some of them reverse their decision again and retransition.

This is my reply to that.

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

Yes, some people “retransition.” Is it because they are constantly threatened by activists? Is it because the only ones standing up for them are republicans?

I can’t help but wonder.

It is simply amazing how much power you attribute to a very marginalized population. In the face of an entire political party and several state governments attempting to restrict their rights, a group armed with little more than Twitter accounts is able to convince people to transition and then bully them into retransitioning when they stray. Yet, we should not let the word "conspiracy" escape our lips.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:there is a huge difference between being gay and being trans. my niece identifies as a trans male and after a few years of therapy, it was determined that she didnt want to be a girl because she went through puberty at a young age and was very uncomfortable with how her body changed. She didnt want boobs. she is now finishing her first year of college, as a woman and is so relieved to not have had any hormones or surgeries. she has always struggled with confidence and she is the first to tell anyone that most trans kids she knows have confidence issues. There are so many topics to explore when a child makes this type of announcement and you cant just jump on the bandwagon and support that decision because it isnt about feeling like you are in the wrong body for many of them. it is hard to find someone qualified to help a child through this process. Niece says that when her mom accepted her, she felt that she had given up on her.

Excellent points.

[Anonymous]

^Did you miss how they treated J.K Rowling? This isn’t a meek little group, Jeff.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you spend any time on r/detrans you’ll see many detransitioners feel like they were young and impressionable children when they were put on puberty blockers, estrogen, testosterone….or when they had sex-reassignment surgery.

It’s pretty tragic.

“What happens when you’re wrong?”

Crickets.

There were, in fact, not crickets. There were multiple replies to that post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:I got tired of removing posts that I considered hateful from that thread. Of course, the authors of those posts will deny that they are hateful because they obviously believe that calling trans women men and accusing them of having mental health issues are just differences of opinion. But, I don't find such posts acceptable.

Every trans-related thread here ultimately goes the same way. It's just too much effort to try to keep the threads civil.

My kid has identified as trans. He most definitely has mental health issues, diagnosed well before. OCD and on the spectrum. What's cruel is the medical community and trans community preying on him, determined to separate him from a family who has always been his advocate.

Yes, you have been repeating this non-stop. It is very clear that you are not willing to accept your child's trans identity and prefer to view them as mentally ill and a victim of groomers. That is not a healthy attitude and, as you are seeing, the results are not good. I hope that your child will find love and support from those who truly are their advocate.

Can you please tell me how you can be so sure of my child's medical history?

I did not comment on your child's medical history. Your inability to accept them as trans is very clear and you repeatedly document the negative outcome of your lack of acceptance.

BTW, you refer to your child with male pronouns. Are those your kid's preferred pronouns?

You absolutely did. I bolded it. I asked you if you have access to my child's medical history, from childhood on. And if you have access to my child's interactions with his doctors and therapists. Because you are making a lot of accusations and assumptions without any data, if you don't.

I commented on your preference for viewing your child as mentally ill. Do you view your child's gender identity as a mental illness? Do you respect your child's gender identity in even the most basic way by using preferred pronouns? Everything you have written suggests that rather than providing your child support, you treat them as defective and mentally ill. Then, you blame others for your alienation.

NP. You’re not helping anyone’s case here. The PP clearly stated their child was diagnosed with mental health issues long before they identified as trans.

Right, but she has a reductive view of her child, only seeing her child as mentally ill and using that as an excuse to reject her child's trans identity. That has predictably resulted in alienation which she blames on everyone else. Moreover, she is extrapolating from that to justify calling all trans people mentally ill. That's why she got in this conversation which had nothing to do with her in the first place.

I have said NOTHING of the sort. I stated that my own child was diagnosed with OCD well prior to when this whole trans movement exploded. And has been diagnosed on the spectrum since early childhood. YOU seem to believe that this issue is black and white, that when a child states he/she is transgender, he/she definitely is. Some are, some aren't and there's a lot to unwrap with this issue, especially when there are previous mental health diagnosis. Since you do not have the full picture into MY child's particular situation, making your own 'diagnosis' is its own form of delusion. It shows the danger of activism in full view and demonstrates EXACTLY how some children are preyed upon. YOU, in your infinite leftist wisdom, has decided that MY child is transgender and that ME, as that child's PARENT, is clearly unfit to raise him. And you call conservatives tyrants? Wow.

"Well-intentioned" and "loving" parents used to send their kids to "pray the gay away camps" too. Just saying. Just because you gave birth to your child and love him/her on some level, doesn't mean you are doing right by them.

More assumptions. This is all you have - attacks and assumptions. If your child told you he had testicular cancer, would you seek a doctor's opinion and medical testing, or just lop them off because your child said he had cancer?

Well-intentioned and loving parents both listen to their children and seek out proper care. And that proper care is different for each child because each child has individual needs and issues. Groupthink and Groupspeak only serve to meet an agenda, not the individual child.

You can just love your child, you know. Use their preferred pronouns. Accept that they know who they are. Love them if that identity changes again. Or doesn't. You can treat his/her OCD while accepting them for who they are. I am on team Jeff on this.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:^Did you miss how they treated J.K Rowling? This isn’t a meek little group, Jeff.

Yes, they were mean to J.K. Rowling. Unlike their anti-trans opponents, they have not passed laws to restrict her rights. She has not been murdered simply due to her identity as have many trans people.

[Anonymous]

Isn’t the debate over how young is it appropriate to engage in this risky, major surgery?

Adults can obviously do whatever they want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:I got tired of removing posts that I considered hateful from that thread. Of course, the authors of those posts will deny that they are hateful because they obviously believe that calling trans women men and accusing them of having mental health issues are just differences of opinion. But, I don't find such posts acceptable.

Every trans-related thread here ultimately goes the same way. It's just too much effort to try to keep the threads civil.

My kid has identified as trans. He most definitely has mental health issues, diagnosed well before. OCD and on the spectrum. What's cruel is the medical community and trans community preying on him, determined to separate him from a family who has always been his advocate.

Yes, you have been repeating this non-stop. It is very clear that you are not willing to accept your child's trans identity and prefer to view them as mentally ill and a victim of groomers. That is not a healthy attitude and, as you are seeing, the results are not good. I hope that your child will find love and support from those who truly are their advocate.

Can you please tell me how you can be so sure of my child's medical history?

I did not comment on your child's medical history. Your inability to accept them as trans is very clear and you repeatedly document the negative outcome of your lack of acceptance.

BTW, you refer to your child with male pronouns. Are those your kid's preferred pronouns?

You absolutely did. I bolded it. I asked you if you have access to my child's medical history, from childhood on. And if you have access to my child's interactions with his doctors and therapists. Because you are making a lot of accusations and assumptions without any data, if you don't.

I commented on your preference for viewing your child as mentally ill. Do you view your child's gender identity as a mental illness? Do you respect your child's gender identity in even the most basic way by using preferred pronouns? Everything you have written suggests that rather than providing your child support, you treat them as defective and mentally ill. Then, you blame others for your alienation.

NP. You’re not helping anyone’s case here. The PP clearly stated their child was diagnosed with mental health issues long before they identified as trans.

Right, but she has a reductive view of her child, only seeing her child as mentally ill and using that as an excuse to reject her child's trans identity. That has predictably resulted in alienation which she blames on everyone else. Moreover, she is extrapolating from that to justify calling all trans people mentally ill. That's why she got in this conversation which had nothing to do with her in the first place.

I have said NOTHING of the sort. I stated that my own child was diagnosed with OCD well prior to when this whole trans movement exploded. And has been diagnosed on the spectrum since early childhood. YOU seem to believe that this issue is black and white, that when a child states he/she is transgender, he/she definitely is. Some are, some aren't and there's a lot to unwrap with this issue, especially when there are previous mental health diagnosis. Since you do not have the full picture into MY child's particular situation, making your own 'diagnosis' is its own form of delusion. It shows the danger of activism in full view and demonstrates EXACTLY how some children are preyed upon. YOU, in your infinite leftist wisdom, has decided that MY child is transgender and that ME, as that child's PARENT, is clearly unfit to raise him. And you call conservatives tyrants? Wow.

"Well-intentioned" and "loving" parents used to send their kids to "pray the gay away camps" too. Just saying. Just because you gave birth to your child and love him/her on some level, doesn't mean you are doing right by them.

More assumptions. This is all you have - attacks and assumptions. If your child told you he had testicular cancer, would you seek a doctor's opinion and medical testing, or just lop them off because your child said he had cancer?

Well-intentioned and loving parents both listen to their children and seek out proper care. And that proper care is different for each child because each child has individual needs and issues. Groupthink and Groupspeak only serve to meet an agenda, not the individual child.

You can just love your child, you know. Use their preferred pronouns. Accept that they know who they are. Love them if that identity changes again. Or doesn't. You can treat his/her OCD while accepting them for who they are. I am on team Jeff on this.

Medicalizing a child for identity confusion is the exact opposite of accepting them for who they are.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Isn’t the debate over how young is it appropriate to engage in this risky, major surgery?

Adults can obviously do whatever they want.

Some of the posters here assert that gender identity is solely a manifestation of mental illness. So, presumably they are also opposed to medical transitions by adults.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Did you miss how they treated J.K Rowling? This isn’t a meek little group, Jeff.

Yes, they were mean to J.K. Rowling. Unlike their anti-trans opponents, they have not passed laws to restrict her rights. She has not been murdered simply due to her identity as have many trans people.

The vast majority of trans people who are subjected to violence are either in the sex trade and attacked by customers or are abused by their domestic partners. There’s no epidemic of random stranger homocide against trans people.

[Anonymous]

Increasingly, Europeans question doing the surgery to *children*.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Increasingly, Europeans question doing the surgery to *children*.

And most trans children aren’t having surgery. Gender affirming care does not mean surgery for the vast majority of trans kids.