NOVA Stats for spring '17 UVA, W & M & Tech acceptances (or not)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

First, in any AP school you are not seeing more than 20 percent of the students pushing for a full range of AP courses across the subjects

That may be true, but we certainly don't see 20% of students in IB schools getting the IB diploma--at least not in the vast majority of them.

I am going to repeat myself since you don't want to hear this. In the three schools where it's thriving, roughly 20 percent of the students complete the IB diploma.

Also, looking at the chart the other poster provided, all you can take away is that in AP schools, a large portion of the students complete a minimum of three AP courses with a score of 3 or better. That still doesn't contradict the point that AP's strength is that it's an a-la cart program and students can tailor their coursework to their strengths and that AP schools often have the issue that there's no defined "most rigorous," which creates this arms race where students are loading up on APs as early as 9th grade.

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20% does not seem to be indicative of a "thriving" IB diploma program, especially in comparison to the numerous AP schools where higher numbers of students are succeeding in AP courses and receiving recognition.

As for whether the less prescriptive nature of AP creates an "arm's race" among students, one could just as easily describe IB as a "one-size-fits-all" program with multiple hoops for IB students to jump through to placate the educational bureaucrats at the IBO in Geneva.

Finally, I think you mean "a la carte," not "a-la-cart."

You are completely wrong. Beyond TJ, there is no school in the county where you will find more than 20 percent of students completing a full cohort of AP courses across the disciplines. It just doesn't happen.

What you will see -- and what you keep ignoring -- is that a large cohort of kids will choose courses that focus on their strengths. Then again, this happens in IB schools as well. Over 80 percent of students complete an IB course.

An IB diploma program where 20 percent of the students are successful is actually amazing because it's a rigorous program. It's not meant for a general education -- it's an advanced program of study like AP classes.

I am going to ignore the snark since you feel compelled to be rude, but I am going to reiterate, IB is a great program and at the schools where it's doing well, these students are getting an extraordinary opportunity to learn. I'm not saying one is better, but it's also not a dumpster fire at Marshall or Robinson.

And looking at other places, you can see its appeal. Falls Church City, WL in Arlington, the MCPS IB magnet schools. People are clamoring to get into these IB programs.

What you don't like is the strategic thing FCPS did when it put IB in high poverty schools. I get that. But it doesn't undermine the point that the IB program is a fantastic opportunity for some kids if they can get into a successful IB school like Marshall or Robinson or South Lakes.

Sorry, but you're missing the salient points.

Others have already pointed out that the IB diploma program is not equivalent to what you'd call a "full cohort of AP courses," because the IB program includes SL courses that are not as rigorous as AP.

Calling IB a success because students take a single IB course in four years of high school is preposterous, when the express goal of the IB diploma program, at least initially, was for all students at "IBO World Schools" to pursue an IB diploma. The IBO may have dialed that back, in an effort to preserve its educational market share, but every IB high school still revolves around the IBO diploma program, with non-diploma students made to feel second-class. You should, but refuse, to ask whether the students who take a few IB courses would have been better served if other courses were available instead of being presented with IB options.

People are clamoring to get into the IB magnet program in MCPS because it is a magnet. People only "clamor" to get into George Mason or W-L because of their locations and/or demographics.

You keep trying to minimize the problems with IB in FCPS by declaring it an amazing success at the three schools (out of eight) where there is marginally greater participation in the IB diploma program. As others have noted, however, the "fantastic opportunity" that IB provides for a small fraction of the students comes at the expense of other students, who both fail to obtain IB diplomas and have limited access to the more flexible AP curriculum (or additional vocational courses that might be offered if we weren't overpaying for IB coordinators at everty school and incurring IB training costs). That would be the case even if FCPS had been able to convince one of the highest-achieving schools in the county to adopt IB (which it has not been able to do), but it is particularly unfortunate when IB is forced upon high-poverty schools in an unsuccessful attempt to retain higher-achieving kids.

We should have IB magnet programs in, at most, two schools in the county.

Your statement that people only clamor to get into George Mason or W-L because of locations/demographics makes no sense, and refutes some of your previous points. You previously argued that high SES parents aren't clamoring for IB. But we see that at least some of them are very happy with IB--by the fact that many people purposely buy in FCC so they can send their kids to George Mason (certainly many of those same families could easily choose a high SES/AP high school in FFX if they really thought IB was so terrible) and by the fact that many of the transfers into W-L for IB are from the higher SES Yorktown district.

Second, if students who aren't pursuing the IB diploma are free to take IB classes, then they aren't suffering at all by not taking AP, unless you think that AP classes are some kind of nirvana. My DS went to W-L and took both AP and IB courses. At least with social science/history, he thought the IB classes were far superior to the AP classes, which he felt were focused too much on memorization and not enough on critical thinking. Regardless, his college granted him credit for the AP classes he took, as well as the IB classes. It would have been perfectly fine with him (and me) if he had stuck to taking IB classes only (but not pursued the diploma). I can think of no way in which he would have "paid a price."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've spent a lot of time looking at the AP test stats at lots of schools. Regarding the number of kids who take a full complement of classes in AP, (from looking at the stats), it appears that most AP kids take:

World Hist (2600 tests in FCPS) + & US Hist (2700 tests) & US Gov (4300 tests in FCPS)
Eng. Lang (3000 tests in FCPS)
AP Calc (either AB or BC = 3500 tests in FCPS)

(that accounts for three of the four core subject areas). The question mark is whether those kids who took the three core subjects above also took a science course -- which is hard to say. I actually would expect that most kids who take a science AP feel confident enough to take one history, one english and one math AP class. I wouldn't say the reverse (i.e. I don't think everyone who takes an AP history + AP eng. + AP math necessarily takes an AP science class).

But, at any rate, 1500 take AP Bio, 1000 take AP Chem, and 2100 take AP Phys I.


So, you probably have about 3000-3500 kids who take at least three of the four core subjects as AP classes, and perhaps half of those (or more -- based on the numbers who take a science AP) take all four AP core classes.

The other two subjects in IB are business/mgn and fine arts. I'm not sure that I even care whether a student takes a college level class in those areas. That's where IB falls off the rails for me. I support my kids taking band/strings/art, but that's not where I would want them to put their efforts in college prep efforts (unless they wanted to pursue that as a career). To me, those non-core IB level requirements seem a little "check the box" -- for most kids, they would be better off taking another hist/psych/statistics/science class rather than "must do ALL six genres b/c that's what we predetermined we want IB kids to do!"

Maybe you should read more carefully. There is a rather serious foreign language (3+2) requirement in IB, that many special snowflakes avoid taking as AP.

Another fallacy is the statement that SL classes aren't college level. In fact, more and more colleges provide recognition for SL level classes as well. Even *gasp* the holy grail of Virginia William & Mary:

http://www.wm.edu/offices/registrar/documents/catalog/prematriculationexamtable.pdf

But the most important point you are missing in your comparison of AP and IB is that IB isn't just a collection of courses. The papers that are written require interdisciplinary analysis of the curriculum in all six areas of study. In terms of preparedness for college or, frankly, and career requiring critical thinking, you can't beat that.

You know why AP is more popular and parents in the more affluent FCPS HS don't choose it? Because it is easier to test in AP (multiple choice), why should my oh-so-gifted future engineer also have to write. Some of the FCPS IB schools require that diploma candidates take IB English HL. You can't escape the writing in an IB program.

There is substantial research to demonstrate that affluent parents successfully find ways to maximize the future success of their children. If IB were a means to further that goal compared to AP, they would be all over it. They aren't.

That being the case, why should we pay more for IB? The arguments that (1) it assists slightly less affluent students who couldn't handle taking multiple AP courses and/or (2) IB families are prepared to accept challenges that more affluent AP families look to avoid seem entirely contrived and unconvincing, particularly when you consider that most TJ students (who work harder than students at other AP or IB schools) primarily come from the AP pyramids.

Again, please explain then why FCC is so attractive to so many affluent parents, and why Yorktown students transfer to W-L for IB.

Is your child at an IB school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've spent a lot of time looking at the AP test stats at lots of schools. Regarding the number of kids who take a full complement of classes in AP, (from looking at the stats), it appears that most AP kids take:

World Hist (2600 tests in FCPS) + & US Hist (2700 tests) & US Gov (4300 tests in FCPS)
Eng. Lang (3000 tests in FCPS)
AP Calc (either AB or BC = 3500 tests in FCPS)

(that accounts for three of the four core subject areas). The question mark is whether those kids who took the three core subjects above also took a science course -- which is hard to say. I actually would expect that most kids who take a science AP feel confident enough to take one history, one english and one math AP class. I wouldn't say the reverse (i.e. I don't think everyone who takes an AP history + AP eng. + AP math necessarily takes an AP science class).

But, at any rate, 1500 take AP Bio, 1000 take AP Chem, and 2100 take AP Phys I.


So, you probably have about 3000-3500 kids who take at least three of the four core subjects as AP classes, and perhaps half of those (or more -- based on the numbers who take a science AP) take all four AP core classes.

The other two subjects in IB are business/mgn and fine arts. I'm not sure that I even care whether a student takes a college level class in those areas. That's where IB falls off the rails for me. I support my kids taking band/strings/art, but that's not where I would want them to put their efforts in college prep efforts (unless they wanted to pursue that as a career). To me, those non-core IB level requirements seem a little "check the box" -- for most kids, they would be better off taking another hist/psych/statistics/science class rather than "must do ALL six genres b/c that's what we predetermined we want IB kids to do!"

Maybe you should read more carefully. There is a rather serious foreign language (3+2) requirement in IB, that many special snowflakes avoid taking as AP.

Another fallacy is the statement that SL classes aren't college level. In fact, more and more colleges provide recognition for SL level classes as well. Even *gasp* the holy grail of Virginia William & Mary:

http://www.wm.edu/offices/registrar/documents/catalog/prematriculationexamtable.pdf

But the most important point you are missing in your comparison of AP and IB is that IB isn't just a collection of courses. The papers that are written require interdisciplinary analysis of the curriculum in all six areas of study. In terms of preparedness for college or, frankly, and career requiring critical thinking, you can't beat that.

You know why AP is more popular and parents in the more affluent FCPS HS don't choose it? Because it is easier to test in AP (multiple choice), why should my oh-so-gifted future engineer also have to write. Some of the FCPS IB schools require that diploma candidates take IB English HL. You can't escape the writing in an IB program.

There is substantial research to demonstrate that affluent parents successfully find ways to maximize the future success of their children. If IB were a means to further that goal compared to AP, they would be all over it. They aren't.

That being the case, why should we pay more for IB? The arguments that (1) it assists slightly less affluent students who couldn't handle taking multiple AP courses and/or (2) IB families are prepared to accept challenges that more affluent AP families look to avoid seem entirely contrived and unconvincing, particularly when you consider that most TJ students (who work harder than students at other AP or IB schools) primarily come from the AP pyramids.

Again, please explain then why FCC is so attractive to so many affluent parents, and why Yorktown students transfer to W-L for IB.

Is your child at an IB school?

NP here. W-L is unique in that it has full AP and IB programs. In the early years a number of Yorktown bound students, in particular, would pursue an IB transfer to stay with friends, and many would end up taking W-L's AP course track instead. This was easy since there is no IB middle years program for
9th and 10th graders. In recent years W-L has attracted almost exclusively transfer students who are genuinely interested in IB. The IB electives (since the early years) have grown substantially to support these students.

[Anonymous]

a further response to the canards brought up again at 15:05;

(1) please, someone, document the actual cost differential for AP v. IB - the FY17 Program Budget and FY18 Budget Questions are not definitive but suggest that it is not nearly as significant a difference as some suggest - but (note carefully) I have asked the question of Kristen Michael (Asst Supt Finance) and been rebuffed. Before asserting this again, please find some real data.

(2) TJ students don't necessarily "work harder" than other students in FCPS (or elsewhere). There are diligent students in each HS in FCPS. TJ has a particular focus (STEM) that is not attractive to many students' interests (including my two who tested in and turned it down in favor of pupil placing to an IB program - we know one other family in our neighborhood who also gained admission and rejected it in favor of attending the local AP school). TJ's culture is singular for a lack of diversity, and a very competitive academic environment - not all parents or students want a "pressure cooker" atmosphere. In our case, we wanted our students to be self motivated, not driven by peer pressures/expectations.

(3) I recognize that anecdotes are not data, but our small neighborhood has parents who have made choices that belie the assertion that affluent, successful parents don't choose IB over AP In fact, they do. We are in the Madison (AP) district so that is the default school. There are currently 11 students from five families who chose to pupil place from Madison to Marshall for IB (that I know of - I estimate roughly that approximately a quarter of the kids attending public school from our small neighborhood, choose to pupil place for IB). Five have just graduated with full IB Diplomas (six are still in the program) and the graduates are attending; Columbia, UVA (Jefferson scholar - full ride), Naval Academy, Berkeley School of Music, and the University of Chicago.

IB worked very well for us and our neighbors, and it kept many high performing students in schools that otherwise they would not have attended. You can argue whether this is beneficial to the other students - I suggest that it is but I have no data to support this.

I do know that my kids can think critically and that they cringe every time I ask them for information and perspective to respond to the assertions of people who don't do the minimum amount of due diligence to understand IB. I respect that some don't like IB. I don't respect baseless assertion, innuendo and unnecessary, mean spirited calumny.

[Anonymous]

There was something posted a few years ago about the additional expense of IB. It was substantial--as I recall.

For one thing, an IB Coordinator is required at each school. It was my understanding that this person does not teach. Another poster said that is not true. I did look at staff of one school, and it indicates that their coordinator is just that--not a teacher.
Also, except, perhaps, for Robinson, most of the IB schools are smaller--therefore, it is necessarily more expensive for that coordinator per student.

There were other expenses, as well. I think the tests are more expensive.

It seems to me that most of the IB schools would be better served with AP. It certainly would be cheaper.

And, the only schools that are anywhere near 20% IB diplomas are Robinson and Marshall. One year, South Lakes came close--but that was just one year, and it was not the last year posted.

Keep IB at Marshall, I guess. It is not that far from South Lakes, so the kids could place there. If Robinson wants to keep it, that is okay, too. Otherwise, what a waste of funds for a handful of kids.

[Anonymous]

My child was able to take AP Calculus, AP Physics, AP Music Theory, and AP Computer Science, along with AP English and Social Studies courses. That simply would not have been possible in the IB program. He could have taken either Music or Computer Science as his sixth subject, but not both. The limitation of six subjects for the diploma and no more than 4 at HL hampers many of the highest achieving students, who are capable of handling more advanced course loads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My child was able to take AP Calculus, AP Physics, AP Music Theory, and AP Computer Science, along with AP English and Social Studies courses. That simply would not have been possible in the IB program. He could have taken either Music or Computer Science as his sixth subject, but not both. The limitation of six subjects for the diploma and no more than 4 at HL hampers many of the highest achieving students, who are capable of handling more advanced course loads.

DD also took a wide variety of AP including BC Calculus and Physics, History, Government (comparative -2 AP tests, as I recall), foreign language and English, Psychology. Perhaps that would be similar to an IB program because of the Social Sciences--but, she certainly took full advantage of AP offerings--without the limitations. And, most of those courses demanded lots and lots of writing.

If a child wants to pursue an IB type program, they can do so at an AP school. Lots more flexibility there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:a further response to the canards brought up again at 15:05;

(1) please, someone, document the actual cost differential for AP v. IB - the FY17 Program Budget and FY18 Budget Questions are not definitive but suggest that it is not nearly as significant a difference as some suggest - but (note carefully) I have asked the question of Kristen Michael (Asst Supt Finance) and been rebuffed. Before asserting this again, please find some real data.

(2) TJ students don't necessarily "work harder" than other students in FCPS (or elsewhere). There are diligent students in each HS in FCPS. TJ has a particular focus (STEM) that is not attractive to many students' interests (including my two who tested in and turned it down in favor of pupil placing to an IB program - we know one other family in our neighborhood who also gained admission and rejected it in favor of attending the local AP school). TJ's culture is singular for a lack of diversity, and a very competitive academic environment - not all parents or students want a "pressure cooker" atmosphere. In our case, we wanted our students to be self motivated, not driven by peer pressures/expectations.

(3) I recognize that anecdotes are not data, but our small neighborhood has parents who have made choices that belie the assertion that affluent, successful parents don't choose IB over AP In fact, they do. We are in the Madison (AP) district so that is the default school. There are currently 11 students from five families who chose to pupil place from Madison to Marshall for IB (that I know of - I estimate roughly that approximately a quarter of the kids attending public school from our small neighborhood, choose to pupil place for IB). Five have just graduated with full IB Diplomas (six are still in the program) and the graduates are attending; Columbia, UVA (Jefferson scholar - full ride), Naval Academy, Berkeley School of Music, and the University of Chicago.

IB worked very well for us and our neighbors, and it kept many high performing students in schools that otherwise they would not have attended. You can argue whether this is beneficial to the other students - I suggest that it is but I have no data to support this.

I do know that my kids can think critically and that they cringe every time I ask them for information and perspective to respond to the assertions of people who don't do the minimum amount of due diligence to understand IB. I respect that some don't like IB. I don't respect baseless assertion, innuendo and unnecessary, mean spirited calumny.

Everything you've posted is consistent with the observation that IB benefits a small number of students and families at the expense of the majority of students, and that most parents/students at the higher-performing schools like Madison have no interest in having AP replaced with IB.

You did acknowledge that your anecdote is not data, which is admirable, but the percentage of students transferring from Madison to Marshall for IB is much, much smaller than "a quarter of the kids" zoned for Madison. Moreover, Madison has needed to cap the number of students seeking to pupil place there from Marshall and South Lakes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There was something posted a few years ago about the additional expense of IB. It was substantial--as I recall.

For one thing, an IB Coordinator is required at each school. It was my understanding that this person does not teach. Another poster said that is not true. I did look at staff of one school, and it indicates that their coordinator is just that--not a teacher.
Also, except, perhaps, for Robinson, most of the IB schools are smaller--therefore, it is necessarily more expensive for that coordinator per student.

There were other expenses, as well. I think the tests are more expensive.

It seems to me that most of the IB schools would be better served with AP. It certainly would be cheaper.

And, the only schools that are anywhere near 20% IB diplomas are Robinson and Marshall. One year, South Lakes came close--but that was just one year, and it was not the last year posted.

Keep IB at Marshall, I guess. It is not that far from South Lakes, so the kids could place there. If Robinson wants to keep it, that is okay, too. Otherwise, what a waste of funds for a handful of kids.

+1000.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It seems to me that most of the IB schools would be better served with AP. It certainly would be cheaper.

All of this angst for just over a thousand students pupil placing to other schools -- 474 transfers approved for AP students and 544 transfers approved for IB students.

If we are going to look at cheaper options -- why does FCPS have so many foreign (oh -- I mean WORLD) language offerings? Let's shorten the list to Spanish, French, and Latin. Save lots of money.

[Anonymous]

If we are going to look at cheaper options -- why does FCPS have so many foreign (oh -- I mean WORLD) language offerings? Let's shorten the list to Spanish, French, and Latin. Save lots of money.

How so? Most schools offer what is demanded. If they don't have enough to support a certain language, it is not offered.

[Anonymous]

The last Freedom of Information Act request I submitted (School Year 2015-2016) showed 170 transfers out of Lee and only 16 transfers in, for a net loss of 154 students. These are totals across the four grades.

88 of the outbound requests were for AP, while the number was so small for inbound IB requests that they could not tell me the exact number for privacy reasons (which means it was less than 5).

There were 13 outbound transfer requests for siblings who may have been connected to AP transfers, and there were 21 requests for senior transfers who may have previously used AP as their transfer reason.

Fourteen FCPS employees transferred their students out of Lee and NOT ONE transferred their student to Lee. What does that say?

There were also 19 other curricular transfers out of Lee which were likely for a language. Just pick a langauge Lee doesn't have and you can escape. Lee is one of only 3 schools in the county to not offer Latin.

Lake Braddock alone took 88 of Lee's students, Hayfield and South County each took 24, and the others were a combination of Annandale, Edison, West Springfield, and other schools.

IB was put into the lower SES schools to keep people from leaving, but in Lee's case it has done the exact opposite. Lee has averaged about 5% of the students earning the IB Diploma. IB does not work for all the schools.

By the way, I would wager that very few of the transfers out of Lee qualify for F/R lunch, which means the F/R lunch students are being left behind at Lee.

Lee's administration has been trying to address this problem over the last couple of years (adding some AP classes and an additional language), but FCPS policy makes it hard for them to stem the tide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The last Freedom of Information Act request I submitted (School Year 2015-2016) showed 170 transfers out of Lee and only 16 transfers in, for a net loss of 154 students. These are totals across the four grades..

Transfer report is on the Dashboard site.

https://www.fcps.edu/enrollmentdashboard

Go to Pyramid & Programs Dashboard, then select Special Data Analysis/Pyramid & Programs. On the next screen, scroll to View Transfer Report.

http://151.188.217.200/fts_drupal_support/dashboard/region1-5transferreport.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If we are going to look at cheaper options -- why does FCPS have so many foreign (oh -- I mean WORLD) language offerings? Let's shorten the list to Spanish, French, and Latin. Save lots of money.

How so? Most schools offer what is demanded. If they don't have enough to support a certain language, it is not offered.

I know of at least five FCPS high schools that still offer underutilized language classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The last Freedom of Information Act request I submitted (School Year 2015-2016) showed 170 transfers out of Lee and only 16 transfers in, for a net loss of 154 students. These are totals across the four grades..

Transfer report is on the Dashboard site.

https://www.fcps.edu/enrollmentdashboard

Go to Pyramid & Programs Dashboard, then select Special Data Analysis/Pyramid & Programs. On the next screen, scroll to View Transfer Report.

http://151.188.217.200/fts_drupal_support/dashboard/region1-5transferreport.pdf

Also, if you go to the Dashboard site and select Enrollment and then High School, you can view the page for Lee HS and see the number of Student Transfers (lower right corner of page).