NOVA Stats for spring '17 UVA, W & M & Tech acceptances (or not)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's see some real data on IB costs - there's a lot of assertion here but only one poster brought any real data. The IB coordinator also teaches at our school.

The argument that only 10% of students who take IB classes get a diploma misses the point - 0% of students who take AP classes get an AP diploma. Students can take individual IB courses (and get a normal FCPS diploma the same as the AP students). Relatively few take on the additional requirements to qualify for the IB diploma.

My understanding is that the IB curriculum was instituted to draw students into lower SES schools and impart a "halo effect" that might be beneficial to the school as a whole. I don't know how that worked out although our school GCMarshall has been very successful with the IB program and has maybe 50 students who pupil place in for the program each year. We pupil placed out of Madison (an AP school) and into the IB program at GCM. It was a very challenging program but we were generally happy with the experience. I don't know how much of GCM's recent success has to do with development in the area and other demographic factors and with the IB program. They also have a top notch principal.

I would submit you are the one missing the point. While no students may receive an "AP diploma," substantially more than 20% of the students at AP schools take significant numbers of AP courses, are viewed favorably by college admissions officers, and the rest are not stigmatized because they don't fall in the "IB diploma" category. If you question that analysis, you really owe the rest of us an explanation as to why the six top-ranked high schools in FCPS are all AP, and parents at those schools show no interest in converting them to IB. In fact, when FCPS tried to convert Woodson to IB, the parents forced the School Board to reverse the decision.

As for Marshall, the improvement in its reputation is due to the growth of Tysons and demand for nearby housing. Even so, the home prices go up substantially as soon as you cross from the Marshall district to the Madison or McLean HS districts. If IB really were so attractive, one might expect the opposite in a county where parents care as deeply about their children's education as Fairfax.

Again, FCPS would be better off with one or two IB programs, not eight under-subscribed programs whose main appeal at present is the fact that they give parents in certain lower-performing schools an option to pupil place to a higher performing AP school (at least until the AP school is closed to transfers).

What makes you think that parents know anything about AP vs IB? Most have no idea. They reject IB because they don't know what it is and they remember taking AP classes themselves. The fact that some group of parents is opposed to IB is not sufficient evidence to decide that IB must be bad. So I question *your * analysis, if that's what your conclusion is based on.

Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that students who take IB classes but don't pursue the diploma are not viewed favorably by college admissions officers and are "stigmatized" in some way?

I taught in both AP and IB schools in the county. First, in any AP school you are not seeing more than 20 percent of the students pushing for a full range of AP courses across the subjects. What you see instead is a student will pursue AP history or English and foreign language while other students might pursue more AP science and math courses. A smaller contingent that is roughly equal to what we see in the IB diploma program will pursue AP courses across all subjects.

The other thing about AP courses is that you run into an arms race. Students are basically loading up because there's no definition of "most rigorous" coursework. In the IB program it's basically set in stone that the diploma is the most rigorous.

From my view, IB is an excellent program if your child attends a school with a large cohort that is going and completing the diploma (basically South Lakes, Robinson and Marshall). I wouldn't consider it otherwise.

Thanks for your helpful input. (And I mean that sincerely.) However, it does not negate the previous point that the "fact" that parents at high SES schools aren't clamoring for IB means it's not as good as AP.

Do the FFX IB schools allow students to take IB classes without pursing the diploma? (This is the case at W-L in APS.) If that's the case, then it seems like the kids who might take selected AP classes would take selected IB classes instead.

It's partially true. There are parents who choose to opt their children into an IB school. Marshall and Robinson both get transfers in.

Any yes, any kid can take an IB class without pursuing a diploma. In fact, over 80 percent of Robinson students do this.

The reason why wealthy parents aren't clamoring for IB is that the county decided to put it in high poverty schools mostly. I do think parents think highly of Marshall and Robinson for example. I think South Lakes also has benefited. If anything, I see the successful IB programs as sort of this under appreciated benefit of FCPS. People might not be clamoring for it, but it's a gem of a program and does a brilliant job of preparing students for the rigors of college, including writing extensively across the disciplines. On the other side, I think AP courses do a good job teaching content as well. They are just more isolated courses.

And if you look at the other counties/cities in this area that have IB programs you can see that they are highly sought out programs and considered an positive thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

First, in any AP school you are not seeing more than 20 percent of the students pushing for a full range of AP courses across the subjects

That may be true, but we certainly don't see 20% of students in IB schools getting the IB diploma--at least not in the vast majority of them.

I am going to repeat myself since you don't want to hear this. In the three schools where it's thriving, roughly 20 percent of the students complete the IB diploma.

Also, looking at the chart the other poster provided, all you can take away is that in AP schools, a large portion of the students complete a minimum of three AP courses with a score of 3 or better. That still doesn't contradict the point that AP's strength is that it's an a-la cart program and students can tailor their coursework to their strengths and that AP schools often have the issue that there's no defined "most rigorous," which creates this arms race where students are loading up on APs as early as 9th grade.

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20% does not seem to be indicative of a "thriving" IB diploma program, especially in comparison to the numerous AP schools where higher numbers of students are succeeding in AP courses and receiving recognition.

As for whether the less prescriptive nature of AP creates an "arm's race" among students, one could just as easily describe IB as a "one-size-fits-all" program with multiple hoops for IB students to jump through to placate the educational bureaucrats at the IBO in Geneva.

Finally, I think you mean "a la carte," not "a-la-cart."

You are completely wrong. Beyond TJ, there is no school in the county where you will find more than 20 percent of students completing a full cohort of AP courses across the disciplines. It just doesn't happen.

What you will see -- and what you keep ignoring -- is that a large cohort of kids will choose courses that focus on their strengths. Then again, this happens in IB schools as well. Over 80 percent of students complete an IB course.

An IB diploma program where 20 percent of the students are successful is actually amazing because it's a rigorous program. It's not meant for a general education -- it's an advanced program of study like AP classes.

I am going to ignore the snark since you feel compelled to be rude, but I am going to reiterate, IB is a great program and at the schools where it's doing well, these students are getting an extraordinary opportunity to learn. I'm not saying one is better, but it's also not a dumpster fire at Marshall or Robinson.

And looking at other places, you can see its appeal. Falls Church City, WL in Arlington, the MCPS IB magnet schools. People are clamoring to get into these IB programs.

What you don't like is the strategic thing FCPS did when it put IB in high poverty schools. I get that. But it doesn't undermine the point that the IB program is a fantastic opportunity for some kids if they can get into a successful IB school like Marshall or Robinson or South Lakes.

Sorry, but you're missing the salient points.

Others have already pointed out that the IB diploma program is not equivalent to what you'd call a "full cohort of AP courses," because the IB program includes SL courses that are not as rigorous as AP.

Calling IB a success because students take a single IB course in four years of high school is preposterous, when the express goal of the IB diploma program, at least initially, was for all students at "IBO World Schools" to pursue an IB diploma. The IBO may have dialed that back, in an effort to preserve its educational market share, but every IB high school still revolves around the IBO diploma program, with non-diploma students made to feel second-class. You should, but refuse, to ask whether the students who take a few IB courses would have been better served if other courses were available instead of being presented with IB options.

People are clamoring to get into the IB magnet program in MCPS because it is a magnet. People only "clamor" to get into George Mason or W-L because of their locations and/or demographics.

You keep trying to minimize the problems with IB in FCPS by declaring it an amazing success at the three schools (out of eight) where there is marginally greater participation in the IB diploma program. As others have noted, however, the "fantastic opportunity" that IB provides for a small fraction of the students comes at the expense of other students, who both fail to obtain IB diplomas and have limited access to the more flexible AP curriculum (or additional vocational courses that might be offered if we weren't overpaying for IB coordinators at everty school and incurring IB training costs). That would be the case even if FCPS had been able to convince one of the highest-achieving schools in the county to adopt IB (which it has not been able to do), but it is particularly unfortunate when IB is forced upon high-poverty schools in an unsuccessful attempt to retain higher-achieving kids.

We should have IB magnet programs in, at most, two schools in the county.

[Anonymous]

I've spent a lot of time looking at the AP test stats at lots of schools. Regarding the number of kids who take a full complement of classes in AP, (from looking at the stats), it appears that most AP kids take:

World Hist (2600 tests in FCPS) + & US Hist (2700 tests) & US Gov (4300 tests in FCPS)
Eng. Lang (3000 tests in FCPS)
AP Calc (either AB or BC = 3500 tests in FCPS)

(that accounts for three of the four core subject areas). The question mark is whether those kids who took the three core subjects above also took a science course -- which is hard to say. I actually would expect that most kids who take a science AP feel confident enough to take one history, one english and one math AP class. I wouldn't say the reverse (i.e. I don't think everyone who takes an AP history + AP eng. + AP math necessarily takes an AP science class).

But, at any rate, 1500 take AP Bio, 1000 take AP Chem, and 2100 take AP Phys I.


So, you probably have about 3000-3500 kids who take at least three of the four core subjects as AP classes, and perhaps half of those (or more -- based on the numbers who take a science AP) take all four AP core classes.

The other two subjects in IB are business/mgn and fine arts. I'm not sure that I even care whether a student takes a college level class in those areas. That's where IB falls off the rails for me. I support my kids taking band/strings/art, but that's not where I would want them to put their efforts in college prep efforts (unless they wanted to pursue that as a career). To me, those non-core IB level requirements seem a little "check the box" -- for most kids, they would be better off taking another hist/psych/statistics/science class rather than "must do ALL six genres b/c that's what we predetermined we want IB kids to do!"

[Anonymous]

Op, this argument of what is successful and who should get IB is becoming tiresome. It's in Fairfax for different reasons. It offers an UMC education to kids who would never go to private school or take 12 AP classes. It wasn't put in FFX for the kids who ALREADY have life handed to them and that's why the haves don't need it. It offers an incredible opportunity to the A-/B+ kid learning how to make their way intellectually and in higher education. Especially the kids with families that have had less opportunities for higher education, or kids who have a chance to be engaged by ideas in a new way and then motivated by education with a new eye. This was confirmed by Ivy admissions officers, Who also noted, for the A+ students with the high test scores, it really doesn't matter whether they do AP or IB. For the level of kids who don't start life on third base, they find full IB students well-prepared, interesting and worth recruiting.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, not OP... pp

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've spent a lot of time looking at the AP test stats at lots of schools. Regarding the number of kids who take a full complement of classes in AP, (from looking at the stats), it appears that most AP kids take:

World Hist (2600 tests in FCPS) + & US Hist (2700 tests) & US Gov (4300 tests in FCPS)
Eng. Lang (3000 tests in FCPS)
AP Calc (either AB or BC = 3500 tests in FCPS)

(that accounts for three of the four core subject areas). The question mark is whether those kids who took the three core subjects above also took a science course -- which is hard to say. I actually would expect that most kids who take a science AP feel confident enough to take one history, one english and one math AP class. I wouldn't say the reverse (i.e. I don't think everyone who takes an AP history + AP eng. + AP math necessarily takes an AP science class).

But, at any rate, 1500 take AP Bio, 1000 take AP Chem, and 2100 take AP Phys I.


So, you probably have about 3000-3500 kids who take at least three of the four core subjects as AP classes, and perhaps half of those (or more -- based on the numbers who take a science AP) take all four AP core classes.

The other two subjects in IB are business/mgn and fine arts. I'm not sure that I even care whether a student takes a college level class in those areas. That's where IB falls off the rails for me. I support my kids taking band/strings/art, but that's not where I would want them to put their efforts in college prep efforts (unless they wanted to pursue that as a career). To me, those non-core IB level requirements seem a little "check the box" -- for most kids, they would be better off taking another hist/psych/statistics/science class rather than "must do ALL six genres b/c that's what we predetermined we want IB kids to do!"

Maybe you should read more carefully. There is a rather serious foreign language (3+2) requirement in IB, that many special snowflakes avoid taking as AP.

Another fallacy is the statement that SL classes aren't college level. In fact, more and more colleges provide recognition for SL level classes as well. Even *gasp* the holy grail of Virginia William & Mary:

http://www.wm.edu/offices/registrar/documents/catalog/prematriculationexamtable.pdf

But the most important point you are missing in your comparison of AP and IB is that IB isn't just a collection of courses. The papers that are written require interdisciplinary analysis of the curriculum in all six areas of study. In terms of preparedness for college or, frankly, and career requiring critical thinking, you can't beat that.

You know why AP is more popular and parents in the more affluent FCPS HS don't choose it? Because it is easier to test in AP (multiple choice), why should my oh-so-gifted future engineer also have to write. Some of the FCPS IB schools require that diploma candidates take IB English HL. You can't escape the writing in an IB program.

[Anonymous]

According to that table, SL courses in Biology, Economics, Geography, History, Mathematics, Physics, and Psychology are not college level (as least according to William & Mary). Pretty big list.

And this fallacy that AP classes don't require writing is absurd.

[Anonymous]

Can someone post the admissions statistics for Lake Braddock and Robinson to these three Virginia schools?

It looks like Lake Braddock gets more pupil placements than Robinson and also usually has more National Merit Semifinalists, but I wonder how that ties out to the admissions data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:According to that table, SL courses in Biology, Economics, Geography, History, Mathematics, Physics, and Psychology are not college level (as least according to William & Mary). Pretty big list.

And this fallacy that AP classes don't require writing is absurd.

There are a handful of colleges that award automatic sophomore standing to newly admitted students with a full IB diploma. Whether or not you feel the program is better or worse, it does have value and is respected by colleges. Why the need for competition between the two? No one on this board is responsible for the original placement of the IB programs, nor the continuation of the IB programs. It exists, and it is a great program for those who choose it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone post the admissions statistics for Lake Braddock and Robinson to these three Virginia schools?

It looks like Lake Braddock gets more pupil placements than Robinson and also usually has more National Merit Semifinalists, but I wonder how that ties out to the admissions data.

Lake Braddock receives many high-scoring pupil placements because it houses the 7th and 8th grade AAP center program for the area. Many students choose to pupil place to Lake Braddock for HS simply to continue on in the same school with their friends. It is a unique situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone post the admissions statistics for Lake Braddock and Robinson to these three Virginia schools?

It looks like Lake Braddock gets more pupil placements than Robinson and also usually has more National Merit Semifinalists, but I wonder how that ties out to the admissions data.

Lake Braddock receives many high-scoring pupil placements because it houses the 7th and 8th grade AAP center program for the area. Many students choose to pupil place to Lake Braddock for HS simply to continue on in the same school with their friends. It is a unique situation.

This. My DD will be pupil placing to Lake Braddock in the fall because she went to the AAP center there and these schools are too huge to start over in. Oddly, my son will be going to Robinson and since he went immersion will get to take Spanish 1 in 7th grade and will likely pursue the IB diploma.

I just think it's fantastic we have two great options right next to each other!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've spent a lot of time looking at the AP test stats at lots of schools. Regarding the number of kids who take a full complement of classes in AP, (from looking at the stats), it appears that most AP kids take:

World Hist (2600 tests in FCPS) + & US Hist (2700 tests) & US Gov (4300 tests in FCPS)
Eng. Lang (3000 tests in FCPS)
AP Calc (either AB or BC = 3500 tests in FCPS)

(that accounts for three of the four core subject areas). The question mark is whether those kids who took the three core subjects above also took a science course -- which is hard to say. I actually would expect that most kids who take a science AP feel confident enough to take one history, one english and one math AP class. I wouldn't say the reverse (i.e. I don't think everyone who takes an AP history + AP eng. + AP math necessarily takes an AP science class).

But, at any rate, 1500 take AP Bio, 1000 take AP Chem, and 2100 take AP Phys I.


So, you probably have about 3000-3500 kids who take at least three of the four core subjects as AP classes, and perhaps half of those (or more -- based on the numbers who take a science AP) take all four AP core classes.

The other two subjects in IB are business/mgn and fine arts. I'm not sure that I even care whether a student takes a college level class in those areas. That's where IB falls off the rails for me. I support my kids taking band/strings/art, but that's not where I would want them to put their efforts in college prep efforts (unless they wanted to pursue that as a career). To me, those non-core IB level requirements seem a little "check the box" -- for most kids, they would be better off taking another hist/psych/statistics/science class rather than "must do ALL six genres b/c that's what we predetermined we want IB kids to do!"

Maybe you should read more carefully. There is a rather serious foreign language (3+2) requirement in IB, that many special snowflakes avoid taking as AP.

Another fallacy is the statement that SL classes aren't college level. In fact, more and more colleges provide recognition for SL level classes as well. Even *gasp* the holy grail of Virginia William & Mary:

http://www.wm.edu/offices/registrar/documents/catalog/prematriculationexamtable.pdf

But the most important point you are missing in your comparison of AP and IB is that IB isn't just a collection of courses. The papers that are written require interdisciplinary analysis of the curriculum in all six areas of study. In terms of preparedness for college or, frankly, and career requiring critical thinking, you can't beat that.

You know why AP is more popular and parents in the more affluent FCPS HS don't choose it? Because it is easier to test in AP (multiple choice), why should my oh-so-gifted future engineer also have to write. Some of the FCPS IB schools require that diploma candidates take IB English HL. You can't escape the writing in an IB program.

There is substantial research to demonstrate that affluent parents successfully find ways to maximize the future success of their children. If IB were a means to further that goal compared to AP, they would be all over it. They aren't.

That being the case, why should we pay more for IB? The arguments that (1) it assists slightly less affluent students who couldn't handle taking multiple AP courses and/or (2) IB families are prepared to accept challenges that more affluent AP families look to avoid seem entirely contrived and unconvincing, particularly when you consider that most TJ students (who work harder than students at other AP or IB schools) primarily come from the AP pyramids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone post the admissions statistics for Lake Braddock and Robinson to these three Virginia schools?

It looks like Lake Braddock gets more pupil placements than Robinson and also usually has more National Merit Semifinalists, but I wonder how that ties out to the admissions data.

Lake Braddock receives many high-scoring pupil placements because it houses the 7th and 8th grade AAP center program for the area. Many students choose to pupil place to Lake Braddock for HS simply to continue on in the same school with their friends. It is a unique situation.

Bingo. My son has great friends from the AAP center and wants to continue on with them for high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've spent a lot of time looking at the AP test stats at lots of schools. Regarding the number of kids who take a full complement of classes in AP, (from looking at the stats), it appears that most AP kids take:

World Hist (2600 tests in FCPS) + & US Hist (2700 tests) & US Gov (4300 tests in FCPS)
Eng. Lang (3000 tests in FCPS)
AP Calc (either AB or BC = 3500 tests in FCPS)

(that accounts for three of the four core subject areas). The question mark is whether those kids who took the three core subjects above also took a science course -- which is hard to say. I actually would expect that most kids who take a science AP feel confident enough to take one history, one english and one math AP class. I wouldn't say the reverse (i.e. I don't think everyone who takes an AP history + AP eng. + AP math necessarily takes an AP science class).

But, at any rate, 1500 take AP Bio, 1000 take AP Chem, and 2100 take AP Phys I.


So, you probably have about 3000-3500 kids who take at least three of the four core subjects as AP classes, and perhaps half of those (or more -- based on the numbers who take a science AP) take all four AP core classes.

The other two subjects in IB are business/mgn and fine arts. I'm not sure that I even care whether a student takes a college level class in those areas. That's where IB falls off the rails for me. I support my kids taking band/strings/art, but that's not where I would want them to put their efforts in college prep efforts (unless they wanted to pursue that as a career). To me, those non-core IB level requirements seem a little "check the box" -- for most kids, they would be better off taking another hist/psych/statistics/science class rather than "must do ALL six genres b/c that's what we predetermined we want IB kids to do!"

Maybe you should read more carefully. There is a rather serious foreign language (3+2) requirement in IB, that many special snowflakes avoid taking as AP.

Another fallacy is the statement that SL classes aren't college level. In fact, more and more colleges provide recognition for SL level classes as well. Even *gasp* the holy grail of Virginia William & Mary:

http://www.wm.edu/offices/registrar/documents/catalog/prematriculationexamtable.pdf

But the most important point you are missing in your comparison of AP and IB is that IB isn't just a collection of courses. The papers that are written require interdisciplinary analysis of the curriculum in all six areas of study. In terms of preparedness for college or, frankly, and career requiring critical thinking, you can't beat that.

You know why AP is more popular and parents in the more affluent FCPS HS don't choose it? Because it is easier to test in AP (multiple choice), why should my oh-so-gifted future engineer also have to write. Some of the FCPS IB schools require that diploma candidates take IB English HL. You can't escape the writing in an IB program.

There is substantial research to demonstrate that affluent parents successfully find ways to maximize the future success of their children. If IB were a means to further that goal compared to AP, they would be all over it. They aren't.

That being the case, why should we pay more for IB? The arguments that (1) it assists slightly less affluent students who couldn't handle taking multiple AP courses and/or (2) IB families are prepared to accept challenges that more affluent AP families look to avoid seem entirely contrived and unconvincing, particularly when you consider that most TJ students (who work harder than students at other AP or IB schools) primarily come from the AP pyramids.

Ugh, this again. Listen, parents try their best. And many think getting the AP program, which is a known entity, is a better choice for their children. I actually think the push to AP-ize everything is problematic. That's why you end up seeing college students re-taking calculus for example because even though they got a 5, the student didn't have a strong enough fundamental to be successful in STEM majors for example.

I actually really like IB. I like the continuity in writing across the disciplines, I life the theory of knowledge course (a fantastic critical thinking experience), I even like the project because it's a good way to get my kid thinking of learning beyond the classroom and in the real world (and is a great way to build up an idea for college essays). I like the resources. I like the mentoring my kid is getting by faculty. I pretty much think it's awesome and people are missing out and it's their own choice on how they raise and educate their kids. I like that IB is available.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's see some real data on IB costs - there's a lot of assertion here but only one poster brought any real data. The IB coordinator also teaches at our school.

The argument that only 10% of students who take IB classes get a diploma misses the point - 0% of students who take AP classes get an AP diploma. Students can take individual IB courses (and get a normal FCPS diploma the same as the AP students). Relatively few take on the additional requirements to qualify for the IB diploma.

My understanding is that the IB curriculum was instituted to draw students into lower SES schools and impart a "halo effect" that might be beneficial to the school as a whole. I don't know how that worked out although our school GCMarshall has been very successful with the IB program and has maybe 50 students who pupil place in for the program each year. We pupil placed out of Madison (an AP school) and into the IB program at GCM. It was a very challenging program but we were generally happy with the experience. I don't know how much of GCM's recent success has to do with development in the area and other demographic factors and with the IB program. They also have a top notch principal.

I would submit you are the one missing the point. While no students may receive an "AP diploma," substantially more than 20% of the students at AP schools take significant numbers of AP courses, are viewed favorably by college admissions officers, and the rest are not stigmatized because they don't fall in the "IB diploma" category. If you question that analysis, you really owe the rest of us an explanation as to why the six top-ranked high schools in FCPS are all AP, and parents at those schools show no interest in converting them to IB. In fact, when FCPS tried to convert Woodson to IB, the parents forced the School Board to reverse the decision.

As for Marshall, the improvement in its reputation is due to the growth of Tysons and demand for nearby housing. Even so, the home prices go up substantially as soon as you cross from the Marshall district to the Madison or McLean HS districts. If IB really were so attractive, one might expect the opposite in a county where parents care as deeply about their children's education as Fairfax.

Again, FCPS would be better off with one or two IB programs, not eight under-subscribed programs whose main appeal at present is the fact that they give parents in certain lower-performing schools an option to pupil place to a higher performing AP school (at least until the AP school is closed to transfers).

What makes you think that parents know anything about AP vs IB? Most have no idea. They reject IB because they don't know what it is and they remember taking AP classes themselves. The fact that some group of parents is opposed to IB is not sufficient evidence to decide that IB must be bad. So I question *your * analysis, if that's what your conclusion is based on.

Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that students who take IB classes but don't pursue the diploma are not viewed favorably by college admissions officers and are "stigmatized" in some way?

I taught in both AP and IB schools in the county. First, in any AP school you are not seeing more than 20 percent of the students pushing for a full range of AP courses across the subjects. What you see instead is a student will pursue AP history or English and foreign language while other students might pursue more AP science and math courses. A smaller contingent that is roughly equal to what we see in the IB diploma program will pursue AP courses across all subjects.

The other thing about AP courses is that you run into an arms race. Students are basically loading up because there's no definition of "most rigorous" coursework. In the IB program it's basically set in stone that the diploma is the most rigorous.

From my view, IB is an excellent program if your child attends a school with a large cohort that is going and completing the diploma (basically South Lakes, Robinson and Marshall). I wouldn't consider it otherwise.

Thanks for your helpful input. (And I mean that sincerely.) However, it does not negate the previous point that the "fact" that parents at high SES schools aren't clamoring for IB means it's not as good as AP.

Do the FFX IB schools allow students to take IB classes without pursing the diploma? (This is the case at W-L in APS.) If that's the case, then it seems like the kids who might take selected AP classes would take selected IB classes instead.

It's partially true. There are parents who choose to opt their children into an IB school. Marshall and Robinson both get transfers in.

Any yes, any kid can take an IB class without pursuing a diploma. In fact, over 80 percent of Robinson students do this.

The reason why wealthy parents aren't clamoring for IB is that the county decided to put it in high poverty schools mostly. I do think parents think highly of Marshall and Robinson for example. I think South Lakes also has benefited. If anything, I see the successful IB programs as sort of this under appreciated benefit of FCPS. People might not be clamoring for it, but it's a gem of a program and does a brilliant job of preparing students for the rigors of college, including writing extensively across the disciplines. On the other side, I think AP courses do a good job teaching content as well. They are just more isolated courses.

And if you look at the other counties/cities in this area that have IB programs you can see that they are highly sought out programs and considered an positive thing.

thanks, this is helpful. I live in APS, where W-L has seen many students transfer in (from both Wakefield and Yorktown) for IB.