Can someone explain the mentality of never being proactive or organized to me?

[Anonymous]

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Right now she's letting herself get upset at things for which getting upset isn't the only option.

Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. The other option is accepting that her partner just won’t help. Aaaaaand we’re back at the black and white thinking. No middle ground, no let’s find out what works for both people. The bar is as low as you decide it should be. Accept it or be upset, your choice!

I swear, the crumbs on the table people are masters at projection. No one is more controlling than the person who digs in and refuses to act. I have an ex like this. His tag line was “you want to control all the decisions”, when the truth was that the future absolutely paralyzed him, and he couldn’t make decisions, period. But rather than facing that, he lashed out at me. It was way easier than facing his own personal failings.

It's really not black and white thinking. It's just reality that you can't make anyone else do anything. You can't find out what works for both people if he isn't going to budge or compromise. You can't go back and not marry him or make him someone else.

What else can you do that you can actually control the outcome of other than accept those things as true (then either leave or stay and deal) or choose not to accept them, i.e., keep getting upset at predictable behavior?

Carolyn Hax talks about this all the time. You can't make someone exercise, eat better, listen to you, change their behavior, care about you feelings.

Do you think you’re saying something smart?

Smart? Don't know.

Revolutionary, yes. I honestly think most wives and mothers would be way happier accepting what I'm saying.

DP but I completely agree with you. You are basically advocating for a Stoic mindset, which of course gets lambasted on this board full of (willfully) unhappy people, but is actually one of the keys to a happy existence.

I have been teaching Stoic philosophy to my children and it has dramatically improved their anxiety and overall behavior.

And for the record I think what you are saying is very smart.

I've seen you advocating for stoicism on this board before and I find it funny because if there is anything that runs counter to Stoic philosophy it's arguing with strangers online about things that don't impact you at all.

You caught me! I am literally the ONLY person who has ever posted on DCUM espousing the benefits of a more Stoic mindset.

I think it’s more CBT than stoicism.

CBT is actually based on stoicism.

No it’s not really. It’s based on changing your behaviors, not deciding “ho hum, I can’t change anything.”

“ In 1979, Beck and his colleagues sealed the concept that the doctrines of Stoicism constitute the philosophical origins of cognitive therapy in their groundbreaking treatment manual for clinical depression: ‘The philosophical origins of cognitive therapy can be traced back to the Stoic philosophers, particularly Zeno of Citium (fourth century BC), Chrysippus, Cicero, Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10175387/#:~:text=In%201979%2C%20Beck%20and%20his,the%20Stoic%20philosophers%2C%20particularly%20Zeno

I see you are as educated on this topic as you are on ADHD.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s not a mentality, OP. It’s a disability. Educate yourself because sh***ing on people with ADHD does nothing since they already hate themselves. But by all means, revel in your superiority while your marriage falls apart. Hope “victory” feels good.

Some of us have ADHD and still manage to not embarrass or disappoint our kids with our inability to be a responsible adult.

Aren’t there degrees of ADHD though? Some people have a milder case than others?

And some people create systems and scaffolds in their lives to accommodate their weaknesses - or choose to simplify some things to allow more mental bandwidth for other things - like my kids and stuff that is important to them.
1. Receive party invite
2. RSVP yes and immediately put it on my Google calendar - inviting my work calendar and my husband.
3. Check for message “no gifts”. If no gifts - screenshot the invite and add that to the calendar entry - because I will doubt myself and recheck the invite 12 times otherwise. If it doesn’t say “no gifts” create a calendar event for the Saturday prior to the party that says “buy gift for X kid” and invite my husband.
4. Wednesday and Sunday - look at calendars with husband. Update each calendar entry for kids with a code to tell us who is driving / going / staying at the event.

But OP didn’t do #4. Or even #2. When I suggested OP change tactics the vultures came out to say that DH should do it all. But, OP is the miserable one. Maybe even has a touch of ADHD herself.

You’re just looking for reasons to blame OP.

Not at all. OP has more power than she thinks she does. But blaming her spouse for everything that’s wrong in marriage is not productive and I doubt there’s a single therapist who would say her DH is 100% in the wrong.

When my kid didn’t put on his shoes, I didn’t just go into a rage every time when I did the same exact thing every day. Sometimes I even gave my kid a bit of grace, “that sucks you have to put on shoes, I’d rather be barefoot too.” Suddenly there’s commiseration and acceptance.

Not really. Stop saying that

She can divorce and coparent with a deadweight. Good luck.

Or she can continue to live with a deadweight floating around the house making messes and mistakes, and do everything for the family herself. Good luck.

Two bad options. Options I’d never want for any of my children. But life happens and bad luck happens. Here you are, must get tough.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s not a mentality, OP. It’s a disability. Educate yourself because sh***ing on people with ADHD does nothing since they already hate themselves. But by all means, revel in your superiority while your marriage falls apart. Hope “victory” feels good.

Some of us have ADHD and still manage to not embarrass or disappoint our kids with our inability to be a responsible adult.

Aren’t there degrees of ADHD though? Some people have a milder case than others?

And some people create systems and scaffolds in their lives to accommodate their weaknesses - or choose to simplify some things to allow more mental bandwidth for other things - like my kids and stuff that is important to them.
1. Receive party invite
2. RSVP yes and immediately put it on my Google calendar - inviting my work calendar and my husband.
3. Check for message “no gifts”. If no gifts - screenshot the invite and add that to the calendar entry - because I will doubt myself and recheck the invite 12 times otherwise. If it doesn’t say “no gifts” create a calendar event for the Saturday prior to the party that says “buy gift for X kid” and invite my husband.
4. Wednesday and Sunday - look at calendars with husband. Update each calendar entry for kids with a code to tell us who is driving / going / staying at the event.

But OP didn’t do #4. Or even #2. When I suggested OP change tactics the vultures came out to say that DH should do it all. But, OP is the miserable one. Maybe even has a touch of ADHD herself.

You’re just looking for reasons to blame OP.

Not at all. OP has more power than she thinks she does. But blaming her spouse for everything that’s wrong in marriage is not productive and I doubt there’s a single therapist who would say her DH is 100% in the wrong.

When my kid didn’t put on his shoes, I didn’t just go into a rage every time when I did the same exact thing every day. Sometimes I even gave my kid a bit of grace, “that sucks you have to put on shoes, I’d rather be barefoot too.” Suddenly there’s commiseration and acceptance.

Ok so I want to make sure I understand what you're saying here.

If your kid is refusing to put on his shoes after you ask him to you have found that extending him grace and empathy helps you move forward because he feels heard and understood. Yes?

And what you are saying is that OP should do the same with her DH -- extend him grace and empathy regarding his ADHD and the ways that it makes it hard for him to do stuff with the kids or around the house. Am I correct in making that leap?

If so then why is it then when OP comes here to complain about this situation and express her frustration with her DH you and others think the key is to tell OP that her feelings are invalid or she needs to "just do X" to fix it? Following your logic wouldn't it make more sense to extend OP grace and empathy and say "that sounds really frustrating and you have a right to be upset that your spouse isn't being a partner"?

And if that's not the obvious logical conclusio of your argument why is it that you can see that your child needs grace and empathy and you can see that OP's DH needs grace and empathy but OP herself does not deserve grace and empathy? I am genuinely confused.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s not a mentality, OP. It’s a disability. Educate yourself because sh***ing on people with ADHD does nothing since they already hate themselves. But by all means, revel in your superiority while your marriage falls apart. Hope “victory” feels good.

Some of us have ADHD and still manage to not embarrass or disappoint our kids with our inability to be a responsible adult.

Aren’t there degrees of ADHD though? Some people have a milder case than others?

And some people create systems and scaffolds in their lives to accommodate their weaknesses - or choose to simplify some things to allow more mental bandwidth for other things - like my kids and stuff that is important to them.
1. Receive party invite
2. RSVP yes and immediately put it on my Google calendar - inviting my work calendar and my husband.
3. Check for message “no gifts”. If no gifts - screenshot the invite and add that to the calendar entry - because I will doubt myself and recheck the invite 12 times otherwise. If it doesn’t say “no gifts” create a calendar event for the Saturday prior to the party that says “buy gift for X kid” and invite my husband.
4. Wednesday and Sunday - look at calendars with husband. Update each calendar entry for kids with a code to tell us who is driving / going / staying at the event.

But OP didn’t do #4. Or even #2. When I suggested OP change tactics the vultures came out to say that DH should do it all. But, OP is the miserable one. Maybe even has a touch of ADHD herself.

You’re just looking for reasons to blame OP.

Not at all. OP has more power than she thinks she does. But blaming her spouse for everything that’s wrong in marriage is not productive and I doubt there’s a single therapist who would say her DH is 100% in the wrong.

When my kid didn’t put on his shoes, I didn’t just go into a rage every time when I did the same exact thing every day. Sometimes I even gave my kid a bit of grace, “that sucks you have to put on shoes, I’d rather be barefoot too.” Suddenly there’s commiseration and acceptance.

How many years has that been going in? That adults and kids need your prompting to do basic stuff all day long?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s not a mentality, OP. It’s a disability. Educate yourself because sh***ing on people with ADHD does nothing since they already hate themselves. But by all means, revel in your superiority while your marriage falls apart. Hope “victory” feels good.

Some of us have ADHD and still manage to not embarrass or disappoint our kids with our inability to be a responsible adult.

Aren’t there degrees of ADHD though? Some people have a milder case than others?

And some people create systems and scaffolds in their lives to accommodate their weaknesses - or choose to simplify some things to allow more mental bandwidth for other things - like my kids and stuff that is important to them.
1. Receive party invite
2. RSVP yes and immediately put it on my Google calendar - inviting my work calendar and my husband.
3. Check for message “no gifts”. If no gifts - screenshot the invite and add that to the calendar entry - because I will doubt myself and recheck the invite 12 times otherwise. If it doesn’t say “no gifts” create a calendar event for the Saturday prior to the party that says “buy gift for X kid” and invite my husband.
4. Wednesday and Sunday - look at calendars with husband. Update each calendar entry for kids with a code to tell us who is driving / going / staying at the event.

But OP didn’t do #4. Or even #2. When I suggested OP change tactics the vultures came out to say that DH should do it all. But, OP is the miserable one. Maybe even has a touch of ADHD herself.

You’re just looking for reasons to blame OP.

Not at all. OP has more power than she thinks she does. But blaming her spouse for everything that’s wrong in marriage is not productive and I doubt there’s a single therapist who would say her DH is 100% in the wrong.

When my kid didn’t put on his shoes, I didn’t just go into a rage every time when I did the same exact thing every day. Sometimes I even gave my kid a bit of grace, “that sucks you have to put on shoes, I’d rather be barefoot too.” Suddenly there’s commiseration and acceptance.

Stop with the "she has the power because she can leave" bit. It's true, and your argument is also disingenuous. The only power OP has, other than accepting whatever her H will give, is divorce. She doesn't want that (from what I can tell), nor do most people who have children unless there is no other alternative. Getting to a place where you realize you have to break up your family because your partner refuses to participate and help in family life requires a long grieving process for most people, and some get there. But to suggest that her whole problem is her mindset is miserably reductive.

Note that the shoeless child in your analogy is the DH. It's an apt comparison. I extend a lot of grace to my 6 yr old that I don't extend to adults. As is appropriate.

This.

Thx for the clarity

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s simple, he thinks all this bday party business is crap and he wants to sleep in and not bother. It’s a mentality of getting a C in school. You pass but barely, but then you still pass.

Now apply that to 100 basic things he fails at a week and you have OP’s situation.

What a $hit$how.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am in charge of 95%+ of the household admin and am the main breadwinner. I am constantly resentful bc I am always either working, doing admin, or at best telling dh to do things bc he does not initiate the need to do or buy anything that needs to be bought or happen.

He took ds to an 8th birthday party today while I took other dc on overnight for travel sport. I reminded him multiple times about party and that he would need a gift; he said he would get the gift. ds tells me this evening that they were late to the party bc dh overslept and had no gift so gave kid money in envelope.

yes dh has adhd. yes is on meds.

I just don't get the mentality. Is it an assumption that I'll just do it? Or weaponized incompetence or like - what is benefit to dh of being like this? I do not understand.

He overslept in an empty house with an 8 yo?

Oversleeping made his kid late for a bday party? Doubt it was a breakfast or brunch boys party….

Didn’t remember to buy or pick up a present despite various reminders from you and his son? So stuffed some cash in an envelope? (Theft alert).


Wow, that’s really beyond disappointing. And a disgusting pattern or neglect and carelessness.

I’d get to a few layers and see what basic divorce terms would look like here.
Unf you might be paying him for the above sub/standard care if he wants 50% custody. Your 8 yo kid needs to get independent and wise to life fast. Sadly, he cannot count on his “father.”

If you do file for divorce - do the kids gave adhd? Two households are difficult for an adhd kid.
As for ex H, this type won’t be able to figure out how to divorce anything- id get him into parenting classes and couples therapy, as a Coming to Jesus approach on how to divorce, coparent, be an adult, raise the kid right. Focus on the kid. Then shift the focus to how does he want to be separated. With custody or some fun dinners each week? With a house or an apartment?

[Anonymous]

* lawyers

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am in charge of 95%+ of the household admin and am the main breadwinner. I am constantly resentful bc I am always either working, doing admin or at best telling dh to do things bc he does not initiate the need to do or buy anything that needs to be bought or happen. He took ds to an 8th birthday party today while I took other dc on overnight for travel sport. I reminded him multiple times about party and that he would need a gift; he said he would get the gift. ds tells me this evening that they were late to the party bc dh overslept and had no gift so gave kid money in envelope.
yes dh has adhd. yes is on meds.
I just don't get the mentality. Is it an assumption that I'll just do it? Or weaponized incompetence or like - what is benefit to dh of being like this? I do not understand.

I think by calling it a mentality you're acting like it's something people are CHOOSING to do. I have a friend who is always late. ALWAYS. I've left her behind for things before and we just don't wait for her anymore, but it's one of her only faults and she says she can't help it, it's just the way her brain works, and I've decided to accept it. She actually does care very much about letting people down but there is something that always convinces her that she has time for X, Y, and Z before leaving the house and she just doesn't but she cannot learn that. One time she said she was sorry she was late but she had to vacuum before she came to dinner. I said oh did something spill? No, she just needed to vacuum.

So it's possible your husband might just be incapable of remembering and planning things. Or it's possible that he's a complete jerk and he's trying to weaponize his incompetence so that he doesn't have to do anything. My husband isn't anything like that but he also likes to have things in the actual calendar because he doesn't have the virtual calendar in his head that I do, which is fine.

your friend chooses to be late because she has learned that you tolerate it. ask her if she’s late to jury duty, work, daycare pickup …

I don't tolerate it. I specifically stated that I have left her behind before. She is late for work all the time but it's a flexible environment and no one seems to care. She doesn't have kids, and this is one of those reasons.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP I think you’re thinking about it wrong. Like PP upthread said the benefit, if there is one, is that he just doesn’t have to do much that doesn’t directly help himself. Cash in an envelope at a kids party (blech, btw, everyone who thinks this is great is wtf. It’s not the end of the world but come on people, way to lower the bar) is a great example. He was able to sleep in, didn’t have to wrap anything, etc.

But the real answer is not what the benefit is for him, but what the consequences are. Which is to say, none. Unfortunately, everything is taken care of by you so there’s no fallout for him. You have my sympathy because as a single mom who does it all, I couldn’t imagine another adult in my house sitting around benefiting from my labor. My 12-year-old DD functions like a mini adult to help with chores, her own responsibilities, etc. I’m raising her this way intentionally. When I read threads about husbands that are like this (I assume they think all they need to do is earn money? Which I do as well, so yeah, it’s not enough if you want a family), I feel deep empathy because that sounds really hard.

Everyone says “just let him feel the consequences“ but the truth is that in a family, the people who will really feel it will be the kids. So I’m not sure what the answer is except marriage counseling, and being prepared to walk away if you have to. But that’s also not an easy answer.

He didn't lower the gift bar. You and OP have a different bar for gifts than he does, which is okay, but neither of you believe it is. That's fine as your preference, but it's your responsibility to own it and not martyr yourselves.

If she wanted an expensive wrapped gift that reflected the kid's interests and was the right color, size, and brand (see how many burdens we can add to ourselves?), she could have gotten it herself. Instead she's choosing to blame him.

Relatedly, she doesn't have a choice to make him buy the "right" kind of gift or get there on time. She can only control her and what she controls is her actions and her reactions. She could change her viewpoint to any number of other ways of looking at this, but she doesn't want to. This is not blaming her, it's just explaining how the world actually works.

Yes, I'm familiar with your argument. This is the black and white, binary, "there are only two choices" argument. As if the only options are an "expensive wrapped gift in the right color/size/brand" or an envelope of cash. This is the mantra of the "let them eat pizza, what's wrong with screens, why should I sign them up for sports because I hate taking them to practice and they can just throw the ball outside" folks. What people who make this argument are trying desperately to avoid is the reality that quality parenting, not "my" or "OP's" preference, but decent quality parenting, lives in the middle ground. Just like a quality approach to life. You don't phone it in at work, and you don't have to kiss the boss's @ss. You don't make 6 extra mortgage payments a year, and you don't pay the mortgage late. You do a decent job, most of the time, and life works out pretty well. Perfect is indeed the enemy of good.

If the envelope of cash (we'll stick with that example) was a one-off, it wouldn't matter. But it's not. It might as well have been late arrival at soccer practice, not helping pick up at home, or any other number of half-@ss behaviors that ultimately fall on someone else. But they shouldn't care about shoes in the hallway!, you'll say. According to who? You? Why does that opinion matter more than the person who prefers order? For the same reason OP's husband can't grab a craft kit at Barston's Child's Play on CT ave NW (or in Arlington for those in VA) where they literally gift wrap at the counter while they're checking you out. First, laziness. Second, selfishness. And hey, be that person if you want to. But own it, recognize that it doesn't make you a good co-worker, partner, or friend, and deal with the consequences. This attitude; the "who cares if there are crumbs on the counter" approach, is always, repeat always, taken by the person who not only wants to do less, but wants to disingenuously benefit from the more done by someone else. OP should lower her standards, you say? Maybe. But no where is it suggested that the DH should raise his. And ultimately the goal here is not to grind your way through life, but to be happy, right? Again, a decent job, most of the time. They *both* get to decide what decent means. And that's not happening if it all falls on her.

You have a mental disorder. I feel sorry for your spouse and your kids. And actually, your kids’ friends, because you are the type of parent who micromanages and sucks the fun out of everything.

(Also, for the record, craft kits are stupid, wasteful, unimaginative instagram crap that mommies like you buy in order to feel superior because it’s such a good “educational” gift…)

She has a mental disorder because she believes men should make an effort of some sort? OK.

But for those in the audience: this PP’s aggressive, hostile and deflecting response to an actually totally reasonable discussion of what it takes to run a household fairly is totally characteristic of these guys. Instead of calmly discussing how to split the work they retaliate and deflect.

The root cause of your unhappiness is your mistaken belief that you are “the boss” (i.e. your standards are the correct standards), coupled with your contradictory belief that as one of two adults in a relationship you shouldn’t have to be “the boss”.

This thread is a perfect illustration of this. OP is complaining not that her husband didn’t take the kid to the party or provide a gift (because by her own admission he did in fact accomplish both of those tasks); she is complaining because he didn’t do it to her standard. Which of course, in her mind, is the “correct” standard. She claims that she wants to be able to relinquish control, and yet she is completely incapable of relinquishing control. That’s not her husband’s issue, it’s her issue.

yeah your immediate reaction that someone trying to get you to participate equally is trying to exert control over you is also 100% in character.

how about actually considering all of the tasks that need to be done and engaging fruitfully, instead of defaulting to “you’re a nagging b” every time your wife asks you not to leave crumbs on the counter?

also just to take one example, I’d really like you to spell out the rationale for leaving crumbs on the counter.

Last night I did just enough clean up in the kitchen to start the dishwasher and not leave food sitting out. Then I went to bed and left the rest of the dishes in the sink. I also didn’t clean the counter or the stovetop. Why? Because I was tired and I just… didn’t feel like it.

I did the rest of the clean up when I got up this morning. I didn’t leave the kitchen clean up unfinished as part of some nefarious plot to get my husband to do it for me. I just didn’t feel like doing it last night. If I had come downstairs and he had started admonishing me for not finishing up last night I would have been p!ssed. But he would never speak to me (or about me) that way, because we love and respect each other, and most importantly, we are both adults and neither one of us gets to be “in charge” in this relationship.

But good luck with your unhappy marriages, ladies. I’m sure every problem is always your husband’s fault.

I'm the same. Sometimes I don't finish cleaning the kitchen. My husband can either do it or leave it and I'll do it later. He does the same. Our house is generally pretty spotless but sometimes we'll leave a task unfinished and neither of us yells at the other.

If my husband got our kids late to a party I would let him suffer the consequences, if any. Giving a kid cash is a bit crass but I bet the kid loved it.

[Anonymous]

Again, it’s the chronic nature and pattern of this happening all the time. Not occasionally.

It’s also the complete absence of any tag-team parenting or living.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Again, it’s the chronic nature and pattern of this happening all the time. Not occasionally.

It’s also the complete absence of any tag-team parenting or living.

What's your solution, then?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Again, it’s the chronic nature and pattern of this happening all the time. Not occasionally.

It’s also the complete absence of any tag-team parenting or living.

What's your solution, then?

He’s not marriage or parenting material.

See a lawyer then either divorce w coparenting therapy sessions or stay longer with individual coping therapy sessions plus don’t give the ManChikd anything important to do/sideline him entirely.

For example, next time you take the older child to travel team tournament out of town - and never put ManChild in charge of this - hire a responsible sitter or teen to drive and care for younger child. Cut out ManChild. He can sleep in all day then. Nothing to discuss.

At least your kid will be well fed, on time, do a mix of activities, social stuff, studies and then can do TV time at night with ManChild.

[Anonymous]

Op is essentially a single parent and single homeowner.

Her needs to start acting like that and not assign of anything of consequence to her disabled H.

He’s disabled. Act like it. Say whatever to him, but always get a sitter or another adult to repair, drive, care, plan things.

[Anonymous]

It’a not like she’s going to unsee his pattern of neglect, shortcomings and straight up failings.

I doubt she’s surprised anymore. But it’s still surprising to see that level of and that constant of inadequacy.