Why are kids with problematic behavior left in mainstream classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://jri.org/services/educational-and-residential/day-schools

Massachusetts has four day schools that function as therapeutic schools, without the boarding element.

Capacity: 30- 50 students.

How is it not cheaper to run a therapeutic day school than a boarding school?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. There are similar programs in Maryland. But it is very hard to get private placement and the programs are very expensive.

That's because these programs are all or nothing. What is needed is an in between space.

What does that mean? It's true that private programs generally cater to those with the highest needs. There are MCPS programs that target children with less significant needs, although many are still self-contained. What sort of other "in-between" option is missing in your mind?

Better integrated options would be nice, but MCPS seems to really fight attempts to get additional supports in gen-ed environments. You might be able to get it if both the parents and the principal are willing to put pressure on central for those resources, but it takes a lot of work and luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best placement is online school

In other words, the streets

School is not daycare or a prison. It can be delivered online effectively.

Clearly you live in a bubble. Who is making the kid do the work?

Teachers can’t make them do it in class either. They can choose to do the work or they can choose to fail. At least they aren’t disrupting the students who are there to actually learn. It’s not fair to the other kids.

I suppose the kids would kill each other in the inner city before reaching adulthood.

Let them do online school instead

+1. If you are violent or disruptive to other students, you should be put into online self-study away from the other students. Online learning can be very effective.

This is just a silly argument. Who's going to supervise the student at home? Most families can't afford to not work or hire a babysitter.

In theory it’d be a nice threat though. Maybe then parents would actually parent their kids if they knew they’d have to pay for daycare or watch them at home themselves.

Only someone speaking from a positon of significant privilege would make a statement like this. The reality is that most families simply couldn't do either, no matter how much they wanted to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://jri.org/services/educational-and-residential/day-schools

Massachusetts has four day schools that function as therapeutic schools, without the boarding element.

Capacity: 30- 50 students.

How is it not cheaper to run a therapeutic day school than a boarding school?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. There are similar programs in Maryland. But it is very hard to get private placement and the programs are very expensive.

That's because these programs are all or nothing. What is needed is an in between space.

What does that mean? It's true that private programs generally cater to those with the highest needs. There are MCPS programs that target children with less significant needs, although many are still self-contained. What sort of other "in-between" option is missing in your mind?

Better integrated options would be nice, but MCPS seems to really fight attempts to get additional supports in gen-ed environments. You might be able to get it if both the parents and the principal are willing to put pressure on central for those resources, but it takes a lot of work and luck.

Why do you think mcps fights against integrated options and additional supports in Gen ed environments?

There's an entire failure process that has to end with.... An even more expensive placement

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://jri.org/services/educational-and-residential/day-schools

Massachusetts has four day schools that function as therapeutic schools, without the boarding element.

Capacity: 30- 50 students.

How is it not cheaper to run a therapeutic day school than a boarding school?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. There are similar programs in Maryland. But it is very hard to get private placement and the programs are very expensive.

That's because these programs are all or nothing. What is needed is an in between space.

What does that mean? It's true that private programs generally cater to those with the highest needs. There are MCPS programs that target children with less significant needs, although many are still self-contained. What sort of other "in-between" option is missing in your mind?

Better integrated options would be nice, but MCPS seems to really fight attempts to get additional supports in gen-ed environments. You might be able to get it if both the parents and the principal are willing to put pressure on central for those resources, but it takes a lot of work and luck.

Why do you think mcps fights against integrated options and additional supports in Gen ed environments?

There's an entire failure process that has to end with.... An even more expensive placement

Of course it comes down to money. But the favorite proposal of this thread-- more segregated options-- is even more expensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It cannot be said enough. What you are seeing is the result of funding for counselors, psychologists, and special Ed staffing not keeping pace with increases in enrollment. Partially due to vacancies, but there are not enough providers to meet the needs of these students and not enough programs and places to adequately serve them. So they are kept in mainstream environments that do not meet their needs and services by staff who do not have sufficient support to intervene, keep all students safe, and continue instruction all at the same time. MCPS has some very effective programs, but there is not enough space, and there is not enough service at the home school level to help students before they get there.

Kids are not more poorly behaved today, it's not a restorative justice issues, and it's not because parents aren't involved. It is the fallout from services being spread far too thin.

Ask any teacher. Kids ARE in fact more poorly behaved than 5-10 years ago. A big part of it is restorative justice and the inability of administrators to discipline students. Before kids who attacked teachers, swore at teachers in class, attacked other students would be suspended. You didn’t have kids roaming the school doing whatever they want.

PP here, and this is my 18th year teaching in MCPS. Restorative Justice not being implemented correctly is a separate issue for sure (the restorative part isn't supposed to be the consequence or punishment, it's meant to show why the consequence/punishment is necessary). Students may not have shown these behaviors in mainstream settings because there were programs and funding to filter them out into appropriate placements and services before they get to that level. I taught PEP for several years and rarely had students that stayed at their home school. It took a while sometimes, but the students went into settings that were equipped to meet their needs. Now that doesn't happen. They go on their home schools and have to fail before the wheels can start turning for interventions and talk of changing schools.

The same holds true for some multilingual learners and refugees. We used to have an elementary school program for students arriving from situations in which they had interrupted schooling for a year or more. Then we were discouraged from sending students there unless they were 3rd grade or older. Then they started moving kids who were 3rd grade age into 2nd grade, so they wouldn't qualify for it. Then they got rid of the program all together and revamped the secondary version of the program. So what happens to those students that have trauma, don't know how to be in school, and don't understand the language? They act out, and there's no support for them or their teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://jri.org/services/educational-and-residential/day-schools

Massachusetts has four day schools that function as therapeutic schools, without the boarding element.

Capacity: 30- 50 students.

How is it not cheaper to run a therapeutic day school than a boarding school?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. There are similar programs in Maryland. But it is very hard to get private placement and the programs are very expensive.

That's because these programs are all or nothing. What is needed is an in between space.

What does that mean? It's true that private programs generally cater to those with the highest needs. There are MCPS programs that target children with less significant needs, although many are still self-contained. What sort of other "in-between" option is missing in your mind?

Better integrated options would be nice, but MCPS seems to really fight attempts to get additional supports in gen-ed environments. You might be able to get it if both the parents and the principal are willing to put pressure on central for those resources, but it takes a lot of work and luck.

Why do you think mcps fights against integrated options and additional supports in Gen ed environments?

There's an entire failure process that has to end with.... An even more expensive placement

Of course it comes down to money. But the favorite proposal of this thread-- more segregated options-- is even more expensive.

Why do you think more segregated options are more expensive than what we have now??????

Which is failing kids out into private placement and traumatizing everyone else in the classroom?????

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://jri.org/services/educational-and-residential/day-schools

Massachusetts has four day schools that function as therapeutic schools, without the boarding element.

Capacity: 30- 50 students.

How is it not cheaper to run a therapeutic day school than a boarding school?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. There are similar programs in Maryland. But it is very hard to get private placement and the programs are very expensive.

That's because these programs are all or nothing. What is needed is an in between space.

What does that mean? It's true that private programs generally cater to those with the highest needs. There are MCPS programs that target children with less significant needs, although many are still self-contained. What sort of other "in-between" option is missing in your mind?

Better integrated options would be nice, but MCPS seems to really fight attempts to get additional supports in gen-ed environments. You might be able to get it if both the parents and the principal are willing to put pressure on central for those resources, but it takes a lot of work and luck.

Why do you think mcps fights against integrated options and additional supports in Gen ed environments?

There's an entire failure process that has to end with.... An even more expensive placement

Of course it comes down to money. But the favorite proposal of this thread-- more segregated options-- is even more expensive.

Why do you think more segregated options are more expensive than what we have now??????

Which is failing kids out into private placement and traumatizing everyone else in the classroom?????

Very, very few students get private placement, even when parents fight hard for it. Private placement isn't what we have now. We have a system where schools group kids with IEPs into one or two classrooms in an attempt to minimize the number of special educators and paraeducators they need. Self-contained programs that are appropriately staffed are absolutely more expensive than that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

Are you really not aware of the limiting of programs that has occurred- especially in elementary? LAD programs used to be 6 kid classrooms, now they are gone and in their place is full inclusion in the home school model. SESES used to be around 6 kids- now they are up to 11 with less support. Newcomers with interrupted education used to have separate schools- now they are fully mainstreamed with 0 support (don’t even get me started about the horrible SLIFE program). Learning Center programs used to be small self contained classes filled with diploma bound students- no more. Now they are a mix of diploma and certificate students and with class sizes up to 18!! 18 all with insane IEP’s. Autism programs used to have close to a 1-1 ratio. NOPE. Now they’re a 1-2 people trying to corral 5-6 highly impacted students.

Now combine all this with the behavior issues we are seeing with our NT children, and we have quite the mess.

A classroom can be managed when there are 1-2 challenging children. But there’s no hope with our current classroom compositions. Things have gone too far and we need to return to more options for education. One size does not fit all!

The previous poster claimed MCPS got rid of self-contained programs in favor of full inclusion. As your post demonstrates, MCPS didn't do that. There are a fairly large number of self-contained and partially integrated options. But MCPS isn't funding them appropriately because it is cheaper to keep students in gen ed classrooms without even provided proper supports.

Adding to that, schools make it worse by grouping kids with IEPs in common gen ed classrooms. And even then the school tries to provide the bare minimum special education supports to those students and teachers.

No, there is nothing in my post that says MCPS totally got rid of self-contained programs, but they closed special schools related to behavior. And now folks are wringing their hands as if there is no solution to kids with bad behavior being in classrooms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes kids cannot be rehabilitated. Sometimes there are just not so good kids. Look at the child in VA that shot his teacher. The child in my sons class was off- he had no compassion and no empathy, a sociopath in the making. How long are the directors willing to keep these kids in school (they call it the holding process) before other children get really hurt. Aka they know it’s the wrong placement but there aren’t openings at the other programs bc they are short staffed or classes are full. Until mcps brings back more specialized programs and creates more space for these kids, there is no other option. If getting police involved expedites the process and shows there is a paper trail, then yes, I am willing to protect the majority of all children for one bad apple.

Part of the problem is these days almost half the students in MCPS have "special needs". There just isn't staff to handle this and probably never will be.

There's a broad spectrum of special needs and the accompanying supports required to address them. Even if we were to adopt this thread's segregated classroom approach, it would not be appropriate or necessary for most kids with IEPs or 504s to be based in a segregated environment.

In case you didn't notice, this thread is about kids with "problematic behavior." As you often remind us, most kids with IEPs do not have behavior problems. We are talking about the ones that do...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

Are you really not aware of the limiting of programs that has occurred- especially in elementary? LAD programs used to be 6 kid classrooms, now they are gone and in their place is full inclusion in the home school model. SESES used to be around 6 kids- now they are up to 11 with less support. Newcomers with interrupted education used to have separate schools- now they are fully mainstreamed with 0 support (don’t even get me started about the horrible SLIFE program). Learning Center programs used to be small self contained classes filled with diploma bound students- no more. Now they are a mix of diploma and certificate students and with class sizes up to 18!! 18 all with insane IEP’s. Autism programs used to have close to a 1-1 ratio. NOPE. Now they’re a 1-2 people trying to corral 5-6 highly impacted students.

Now combine all this with the behavior issues we are seeing with our NT children, and we have quite the mess.

A classroom can be managed when there are 1-2 challenging children. But there’s no hope with our current classroom compositions. Things have gone too far and we need to return to more options for education. One size does not fit all!

The previous poster claimed MCPS got rid of self-contained programs in favor of full inclusion. As your post demonstrates, MCPS didn't do that. There are a fairly large number of self-contained and partially integrated options. But MCPS isn't funding them appropriately because it is cheaper to keep students in gen ed classrooms without even provided proper supports.

Adding to that, schools make it worse by grouping kids with IEPs in common gen ed classrooms. And even then the school tries to provide the bare minimum special education supports to those students and teachers.

No, there is nothing in my post that says MCPS totally got rid of self-contained programs, but they closed special schools related to behavior. And now folks are wringing their hands as if there is no solution to kids with bad behavior being in classrooms.

MCPS still has a variety of self-contained programs. But yes, other than RICA, these programs and schools are colocated with elementary, middle and high schools serving gen ed students as well. Is your main complaint here really that these aren't separate buildings?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best placement is online school

In other words, the streets

School is not daycare or a prison. It can be delivered online effectively.

Clearly you live in a bubble. Who is making the kid do the work?

Teachers can’t make them do it in class either. They can choose to do the work or they can choose to fail. At least they aren’t disrupting the students who are there to actually learn. It’s not fair to the other kids.

I suppose the kids would kill each other in the inner city before reaching adulthood.

Let them do online school instead

+1. If you are violent or disruptive to other students, you should be put into online self-study away from the other students. Online learning can be very effective.

This is just a silly argument. Who's going to supervise the student at home? Most families can't afford to not work or hire a babysitter.

It's extremely effective for the other 29 students who won't be constantly disrupted and attacked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You put the in sped classes or bad student classes until they can feel shame again. Then they will appreciate classes focused on learning instead of interrupting the educations of students.

You want to use Special Ed as jail?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best placement is online school

In other words, the streets

School is not daycare or a prison. It can be delivered online effectively.

Clearly you live in a bubble. Who is making the kid do the work?

Teachers can’t make them do it in class either. They can choose to do the work or they can choose to fail. At least they aren’t disrupting the students who are there to actually learn. It’s not fair to the other kids.

I suppose the kids would kill each other in the inner city before reaching adulthood.

Let them do online school instead

+1. If you are violent or disruptive to other students, you should be put into online self-study away from the other students. Online learning can be very effective.

This is just a silly argument. Who's going to supervise the student at home? Most families can't afford to not work or hire a babysitter.

It's extremely effective for the other 29 students who won't be constantly disrupted and attacked.

Still an absurd premise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best placement is online school

In other words, the streets

School is not daycare or a prison. It can be delivered online effectively.

Clearly you live in a bubble. Who is making the kid do the work?

Teachers can’t make them do it in class either. They can choose to do the work or they can choose to fail. At least they aren’t disrupting the students who are there to actually learn. It’s not fair to the other kids.

I suppose the kids would kill each other in the inner city before reaching adulthood.

Let them do online school instead

+1. If you are violent or disruptive to other students, you should be put into online self-study away from the other students. Online learning can be very effective.

This is just a silly argument. Who's going to supervise the student at home? Most families can't afford to not work or hire a babysitter.

It's extremely effective for the other 29 students who won't be constantly disrupted and attacked.

Still an absurd premise.

Why do you assume they would be sent home?! Students could do their online studies in a supervised study hall with coaches on-site to help facilitate online learning. Online studies are actually highly effective because the software dynamically adjusts to the level where the particular student is at. Millions of kids already do online learning to great success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best placement is online school

In other words, the streets

School is not daycare or a prison. It can be delivered online effectively.

Clearly you live in a bubble. Who is making the kid do the work?

Teachers can’t make them do it in class either. They can choose to do the work or they can choose to fail. At least they aren’t disrupting the students who are there to actually learn. It’s not fair to the other kids.

I suppose the kids would kill each other in the inner city before reaching adulthood.

Let them do online school instead

+1. If you are violent or disruptive to other students, you should be put into online self-study away from the other students. Online learning can be very effective.

This is just a silly argument. Who's going to supervise the student at home? Most families can't afford to not work or hire a babysitter.

It's extremely effective for the other 29 students who won't be constantly disrupted and attacked.

Still an absurd premise.

Why do you assume they would be sent home?! Students could do their online studies in a supervised study hall with coaches on-site to help facilitate online learning. Online studies are actually highly effective because the software dynamically adjusts to the level where the particular student is at. Millions of kids already do online learning to great success.

The type of people who would want to work in that setting are not the ones you want with kids.