Why are kids with problematic behavior left in mainstream classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our grade has at least 4 kids that don't speak a word of English. One joined just this month. How come there is no separate school for English learners or at least a few week program to get them started? Our poor teacher can't communicate with the child at all and my daughter tells me the poor child just looks miserable all day.

Online school could better adapt to fit the unique needs of these kids. The opposition here is hurting kids.

Except that they inherently can't provide the services or supports that would be needed for many of the students we're alluding to.

Public schools, whether in-person or online, both cannot do this properly.

The therapy needs to come from elsewhere. One advantage of online school is the flexibility it allows for kids to actually get the therapy they need.

It can sometimes be hard to tell when you're attempting to have a serious discussion. This is one of those times.

For significant developmental disabilities and behavioral/emotional disorders, you can't separate therapy and education. Therapy and disability-dependent supports are integrated in the educational environment.

And besides not being able to do that, no, online school does not provide "flexibility" that helps in these situations. It just makes it harder to find, set-up, and coordinate between these different providers. Why do you think center-based programs have gotten so popular for higher-needs kids compared to a la carte arrangements?

+1. My kid is at RICA and I cannot sing its praises enough. It’s not perfect it for us it has been amazing. RICA is unique in that there are therapists and psychiatrists in the building. There are quarterly meetings with parents, case managers, and the medical team. It means that everyone that is interacting with my child on a regular basis gets to share their perspective —what’s going well and what is not.

For my kid, he wasn’t going to be able to learn to control his emotions until his medication was stable. Since mental health meds take time to work, this is a long process. By having everyone share their thoughts on a regular basis, adjustments can be made.

If there’s a meltdown/explosion/dysregulation, the sped teacher first tries to handle it. If they need more help they can call for support staff. Once support staff takes over the teacher resumes teaching. The classroom is not cleared. Then the child’s therapist is called and will help the child process what happened. Now you have notes from a teacher, support, and therapist documenting what triggered the incident which means a stronger FBA. If there’s a need for a med change, the psych might spend 2 weeks observing at different times of the day.

The therapists also work closely with the specials teachers. Art class has an element of supporting the student to express their feelings through art. Same for music. Pet therapy is a very popular event.

By not separating the education from the therapy, you create wrap around support that is able to address issues more completely and quicker. When all the adults involved can see first hand what is going on, it makes everything much easier.

Thank you for explaining the program so well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fundamental concern for public schools is that critical resources are being taken away from 95% of kids to meet the extremely high needs of some children, resulting in poor outcomes for everyone.

We also need to do a better job differentiating between students with true mental health needs vs. kids who simply choose to be rowdy and disengaged.

I think it’s a spectrum and not a hard line. What do you do with the kid who is in the middle? Or the child who has unpredictable periods of relapse that manifest in emotional dysregulation? Do you keep them at home continuously?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fundamental concern for public schools is that critical resources are being taken away from 95% of kids to meet the extremely high needs of some children, resulting in poor outcomes for everyone.

We also need to do a better job differentiating between students with true mental health needs vs. kids who simply choose to be rowdy and disengaged.

I think it’s a spectrum and not a hard line. What do you do with the kid who is in the middle? Or the child who has unpredictable periods of relapse that manifest in emotional dysregulation? Do you keep them at home continuously?

That's exactly what some people here are suggesting.

Though, in reality, they don't really care if they're at home, on the street, or in the morgue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fundamental concern for public schools is that critical resources are being taken away from 95% of kids to meet the extremely high needs of some children, resulting in poor outcomes for everyone.

We also need to do a better job differentiating between students with true mental health needs vs. kids who simply choose to be rowdy and disengaged.

I think it’s a spectrum and not a hard line. What do you do with the kid who is in the middle? Or the child who has unpredictable periods of relapse that manifest in emotional dysregulation? Do you keep them at home continuously?

That's exactly what some people here are suggesting.

Though, in reality, they don't really care if they're at home, on the street, or in the morgue.

Not helpful to make comments like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are no consequences for kids today. When I was a kid, disruptive kids were sent to principals office and then sent home where they were spanked or even worse. Grounding, no devices, etc.. Now they get sent to the principals office and then straight back to class with no discipline. We dont want to hurt anyones feelings today and treat kids like adults even when they are 5 yrs and this is the long term outcome.

The long term outcome for most of those students who were suspended for being disruptive when we were kids was dropping out of school. They didn’t get the help they needed to learn how to regulate themselves. They only got punishment. They also fell even further behind academically. It’s more accurately called pushed out of school rather than dropping out.

We need wrap around services for all students and families. Maybe school needs to be entirely restructured with most students learning self-paced online alone or in small groups most of the the time. This would allow flexibility for everything from therapy for mental health to the vacations DCUM wants to take on school days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fundamental concern for public schools is that critical resources are being taken away from 95% of kids to meet the extremely high needs of some children, resulting in poor outcomes for everyone.

We also need to do a better job differentiating between students with true mental health needs vs. kids who simply choose to be rowdy and disengaged.

I think it’s a spectrum and not a hard line. What do you do with the kid who is in the middle? Or the child who has unpredictable periods of relapse that manifest in emotional dysregulation? Do you keep them at home continuously?

That's exactly what some people here are suggesting.

Though, in reality, they don't really care if they're at home, on the street, or in the morgue.

Not helpful to make comments like that.

It absolutely reflects the views of one or two posters in this thread. Maybe others that haven't been as direct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no consequences for kids today. When I was a kid, disruptive kids were sent to principals office and then sent home where they were spanked or even worse. Grounding, no devices, etc.. Now they get sent to the principals office and then straight back to class with no discipline. We dont want to hurt anyones feelings today and treat kids like adults even when they are 5 yrs and this is the long term outcome.

The long term outcome for most of those students who were suspended for being disruptive when we were kids was dropping out of school. They didn’t get the help they needed to learn how to regulate themselves. They only got punishment. They also fell even further behind academically. It’s more accurately called pushed out of school rather than dropping out.

We need wrap around services for all students and families. Maybe school needs to be entirely restructured with most students learning self-paced online alone or in small groups most of the the time. This would allow flexibility for everything from therapy for mental health to the vacations DCUM wants to take on school days.

You think it would be realistic and effective for "most students" to learn "online alone"? Really?

The rest of the post doesn't read like a troll, but it is hard to believe someone could be so out of touch, even on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

Are you really not aware of the limiting of programs that has occurred- especially in elementary? LAD programs used to be 6 kid classrooms, now they are gone and in their place is full inclusion in the home school model. SESES used to be around 6 kids- now they are up to 11 with less support. Newcomers with interrupted education used to have separate schools- now they are fully mainstreamed with 0 support (don’t even get me started about the horrible SLIFE program). Learning Center programs used to be small self contained classes filled with diploma bound students- no more. Now they are a mix of diploma and certificate students and with class sizes up to 18!! 18 all with insane IEP’s. Autism programs used to have close to a 1-1 ratio. NOPE. Now they’re a 1-2 people trying to corral 5-6 highly impacted students.

Now combine all this with the behavior issues we are seeing with our NT children, and we have quite the mess.

A classroom can be managed when there are 1-2 challenging children. But there’s no hope with our current classroom compositions. Things have gone too far and we need to return to more options for education. One size does not fit all!

The previous poster claimed MCPS got rid of self-contained programs in favor of full inclusion. As your post demonstrates, MCPS didn't do that. There are a fairly large number of self-contained and partially integrated options. But MCPS isn't funding them appropriately because it is cheaper to keep students in gen ed classrooms without even provided proper supports.

Adding to that, schools make it worse by grouping kids with IEPs in common gen ed classrooms. And even then the school tries to provide the bare minimum special education supports to those students and teachers.

MCPS has a limited pie. They can't fund everything. (Time to kill Bocce!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best placement is online school

In other words, the streets

School is not daycare or a prison. It can be delivered online effectively.

Clearly you live in a bubble. Who is making the kid do the work?

Teachers can’t make them do it in class either. They can choose to do the work or they can choose to fail. At least they aren’t disrupting the students who are there to actually learn. It’s not fair to the other kids.

I suppose the kids would kill each other in the inner city before reaching adulthood.

Let them do online school instead

+1. If you are violent or disruptive to other students, you should be put into online self-study away from the other students. Online learning can be very effective.

This is just a silly argument. Who's going to supervise the student at home? Most families can't afford to not work or hire a babysitter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best placement is online school

In other words, the streets

School is not daycare or a prison. It can be delivered online effectively.

Clearly you live in a bubble. Who is making the kid do the work?

Teachers can’t make them do it in class either. They can choose to do the work or they can choose to fail. At least they aren’t disrupting the students who are there to actually learn. It’s not fair to the other kids.

I suppose the kids would kill each other in the inner city before reaching adulthood.

Let them do online school instead

+1. If you are violent or disruptive to other students, you should be put into online self-study away from the other students. Online learning can be very effective.

The assumption with online learning is that the student needs to learn English or math or another academic subject. What behavioral students need to learn is the life skill of emotional regulation. They need to learn this skill before they can move to academic learning.

Emotional regulation cannot be taught online. It needs to be practiced over and over again. It needs someone to identify when an incident is about to start and coach the child through the coping skills they are learning. By putting them in an online environment, you are taking away the organic events of daily life that they need to learn to handle.

But neither should my child be a crash test dummy for violent and disruptive kids so they can work on their people skills. My child also has a right to learn in a safe and productive environment. As always there needs to be a balance.

Agree. All children should have the opportunity to learn in a safe environment. So put the behavioral kids in their own classroom to learn the skills they need. Similar to what MCPS does with the LFI classes.

But all this costs money. As a county are we prepared to raise our property taxes to increase funding for our schools? All children are losing out as a result of the current model. Are the adults prepared to put their money where there mouth is?

Elrich tried to get some more funding for MCPS. The county council nixed it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fundamental concern for public schools is that critical resources are being taken away from 95% of kids to meet the extremely high needs of some children, resulting in poor outcomes for everyone.

We also need to do a better job differentiating between students with true mental health needs vs. kids who simply choose to be rowdy and disengaged.

I think it’s a spectrum and not a hard line. What do you do with the kid who is in the middle? Or the child who has unpredictable periods of relapse that manifest in emotional dysregulation? Do you keep them at home continuously?

DCUM doesn't like answers that aren't black and white.

[Anonymous]

You put the in sped classes or bad student classes until they can feel shame again. Then they will appreciate classes focused on learning instead of interrupting the educations of students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://jri.org/services/educational-and-residential/day-schools

Massachusetts has four day schools that function as therapeutic schools, without the boarding element.

Capacity: 30- 50 students.

How is it not cheaper to run a therapeutic day school than a boarding school?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. There are similar programs in Maryland. But it is very hard to get private placement and the programs are very expensive.

That's because these programs are all or nothing. What is needed is an in between space.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You put the in sped classes or bad student classes until they can feel shame again. Then they will appreciate classes focused on learning instead of interrupting the educations of students.

Have you ever stepped foot into a public school? There are no "bad student classes"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best placement is online school

In other words, the streets

School is not daycare or a prison. It can be delivered online effectively.

Clearly you live in a bubble. Who is making the kid do the work?

Teachers can’t make them do it in class either. They can choose to do the work or they can choose to fail. At least they aren’t disrupting the students who are there to actually learn. It’s not fair to the other kids.

I suppose the kids would kill each other in the inner city before reaching adulthood.

Let them do online school instead

+1. If you are violent or disruptive to other students, you should be put into online self-study away from the other students. Online learning can be very effective.

This is just a silly argument. Who's going to supervise the student at home? Most families can't afford to not work or hire a babysitter.

In theory it’d be a nice threat though. Maybe then parents would actually parent their kids if they knew they’d have to pay for daycare or watch them at home themselves.