Question about the homophobia thread

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:“Almost the entire medical field supports gender affirming care.”

This is simply not true. European medical societies have pulled back from the treatment plans still seen in the US. Our medical societies are victims of institutional capture. The AAP was asked by members to review the evidence and they refuse. Read this open letter from Genspect on the issue - https://genspect.org/an-open-letter-to-the-american-academy-of-pediatrics/

Check out SEGM’s work as well. https://segm.org/ You can’t hide behind the statement that this is accepted practice in the medical field. It’s not. It’s not happening in Europe any more and there are many concerned practitioners in the US who are silenced by the organizations that are supposed to represent them.

There are billions of Pharma dollars behind this https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/billionaire-family-pushing-synthetic-sex-identities-ssi-pritzkers The similarities with the opioid scandal are notable.

Gender affirming care is still supported by the European medical societies. It is true that they have increased eligibility requirements on medical interventions, but gender-affirming care is still arguably more available there than in the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The issue of transitioning and then detransitioning is interesting but not really all that relevant when we’re talking about kids. At most, doctors are proving puberty blockers so kids have time to fully explore their identities. Very very few kids are having any sort of surgery before they are at least 16. The point is more around social acceptance. There is literally no harm in calling them by their chosen name and pronouns and allowing them to live their lives as they identify. And there is a ton of potential harm in not doing so

98% of kids who go on puberty blockers continue on to cross-sex hormones. That suggests that few are using them as a “pause” button and instead they are used as a first step to continued medical treatment. https://statsforgender.org/puberty-blockers/

They are not without harm. When boys take them early in development, their penis never goes on to maturity and they develop a “micro-penis” instead. They never build sufficient bone density and will develop osteopenia and osteoporosis at an early age.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

He knows.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

That wasn’t me; that was someone else who sees what’s going on.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

He knows.

Explain the difference between unethical doctors against whom parents must stand up and doctors who are conspiring to trick people?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Almost the entire medical field supports gender affirming care.”

This is simply not true. European medical societies have pulled back from the treatment plans still seen in the US. Our medical societies are victims of institutional capture. The AAP was asked by members to review the evidence and they refuse. Read this open letter from Genspect on the issue - https://genspect.org/an-open-letter-to-the-american-academy-of-pediatrics/

Check out SEGM’s work as well. https://segm.org/ You can’t hide behind the statement that this is accepted practice in the medical field. It’s not. It’s not happening in Europe any more and there are many concerned practitioners in the US who are silenced by the organizations that are supposed to represent them.

There are billions of Pharma dollars behind this https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/billionaire-family-pushing-synthetic-sex-identities-ssi-pritzkers The similarities with the opioid scandal are notable.

Gender affirming care is still supported by the European medical societies. It is true that they have increased eligibility requirements on medical interventions, but gender-affirming care is still arguably more available there than in the US.

I’m jumping back in to say this isn’t gender affirming care. This is sex affirming care.

[Anonymous]

^Sorry, Jeff. I respect you, but you’re being disingenuous.

It’s clear what I’m saying.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The issue of transitioning and then detransitioning is interesting but not really all that relevant when we’re talking about kids. At most, doctors are proving puberty blockers so kids have time to fully explore their identities. Very very few kids are having any sort of surgery before they are at least 16. The point is more around social acceptance. There is literally no harm in calling them by their chosen name and pronouns and allowing them to live their lives as they identify. And there is a ton of potential harm in not doing so

98% of kids who go on puberty blockers continue on to cross-sex hormones. That suggests that few are using them as a “pause” button and instead they are used as a first step to continued medical treatment. https://statsforgender.org/puberty-blockers/

They are not without harm. When boys take them early in development, their penis never goes on to maturity and they develop a “micro-penis” instead. They never build sufficient bone density and will develop osteopenia and osteoporosis at an early age.

Horrific.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

^Thank you, PP, for taking the time to write that out. That is exactly right.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

There are apparently two posters accusing me of misinterpreting the statement about "unethical doctors" and now both of them are claiming they didn't post the message that said that. So, I went back to check and it is true that it wasn't you who wrote that. But, the other poster, who actually did write it, is also denying it for some reason. I apologize for confusing the two of you.

But, you ignored the primary point of the post that led to this diversion. If you believe that all voices should be heard, then you can set an example for all of us. When you post about those who detransition, be sure to mention how they are exploited by those who are anti-trans and that some of them reverse their decision again and retransition.

[Anonymous]

^Are you talking about me? I didn’t deny anything. I said you used misrepresentation fallacy, which you did and a lot of activists do.

Anyway, I’m not trying to derail the thread. Apologies, all.

Again, thank you, PP, for your clarifying reply.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

There are apparently two posters accusing me of misinterpreting the statement about "unethical doctors" and now both of them are claiming they didn't post the message that said that. So, I went back to check and it is true that it wasn't you who wrote that. But, the other poster, who actually did write it, is also denying it for some reason. I apologize for confusing the two of you.

But, you ignored the primary point of the post that led to this diversion. If you believe that all voices should be heard, then you can set an example for all of us. When you post about those who detransition, be sure to mention how they are exploited by those who are anti-trans and that some of them reverse their decision again and retransition.

Will you be mentioning detransitioners everytime you post on the subject?