I’m confused! Trans swimmers Lia Thomas and Iszac Henig went head-to-head in the pool

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If anyone thinks calling me a TERF is really wounding my feelings, they’re even more delusional than I thought.

Agree.
It’s an ageist and sexist term designed to shut us up.

It is ironic that nearly all of the violence against trans individuals is perpetrated by men; however, the TRAs decide to create and use slurs that are demeaning to women, not the men who commit violence against them.

I feel for Lia and hope that she is able to compete in her sport; however she must know on some level that her participation is not fair.

Your female socialization is showing. You shouldn’t feel for someone who doesn’t feel for you and would happily see you marginalized for good so he can take your place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If anyone thinks calling me a TERF is really wounding my feelings, they’re even more delusional than I thought.

Agree.
It’s an ageist and sexist term designed to shut us up.

It is ironic that nearly all of the violence against trans individuals is perpetrated by men; however, the TRAs decide to create and use slurs that are demeaning to women, not the men who commit violence against them.

I feel for Lia and hope that she is able to compete in her sport; however she must know on some level that her participation is not fair.

Your female socialization is showing. You shouldn’t feel for someone who doesn’t feel for you and would happily see you marginalized for good so he can take your place.

Well yes, I am female and have the ability to sympathize with others. I am sure that Lia has had a difficult journey and hope that she is able to reach peace eventually. That doesn’t mean I accept biological men in women’s spaces.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that biological women who have worked their butts off as athletes for years should step aside (i.e., give up the chance to attend a championship meet, make finals at that meet, place in their event, etc) for Lia Thomas--who completed as a male NCAA swimmer for 3 years--is preposterous, anti-woman, and, I believe, in violation of Title IX. Every woman in the country should be up in arms about this and should demand change now.

If you can believe it, there is actually a transwoman suing under Title IX to overturn one of the state’s bans on transwomen competing against women. They think Title IX protects their “right” to an unfair competition. The transman at the ACLU who is leading the charge has actually suggested that she might file suit on behalf of Lia Thomas under Title IX.

This is ironic because a couple of women's groups have submitted a request to Pennsylvania authorities to investigate a potential Title IX violation and an act of indecent exposure due to Thomas exposing his (intact) genitals in the women's locker room:

https://womensdeclarationusa.com/letter-regarding-upenn-womens-swim-team/

[Anonymous]

Transgenderism is sex appropriation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that biological women who have worked their butts off as athletes for years should step aside (i.e., give up the chance to attend a championship meet, make finals at that meet, place in their event, etc) for Lia Thomas--who completed as a male NCAA swimmer for 3 years--is preposterous, anti-woman, and, I believe, in violation of Title IX. Every woman in the country should be up in arms about this and should demand change now.

If you can believe it, there is actually a transwoman suing under Title IX to overturn one of the state’s bans on transwomen competing against women. They think Title IX protects their “right” to an unfair competition. The transman at the ACLU who is leading the charge has actually suggested that she might file suit on behalf of Lia Thomas under Title IX.

This is ironic because a couple of women's groups have submitted a request to Pennsylvania authorities to investigate a potential Title IX violation and an act of indecent exposure due to Thomas exposing his (intact) genitals in the women's locker room:

https://womensdeclarationusa.com/letter-regarding-upenn-womens-swim-team/

It is ironic but not surprising. This is not the first time that the ACLU is suing to prevent information about public institutions from being release to the public. They are suing in Washington state to prevent information from being release to citizens about sexual assault (rape) committed by males against women in women's prisons. I fully expect that they will file suit on behalf of Lia as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that biological women who have worked their butts off as athletes for years should step aside (i.e., give up the chance to attend a championship meet, make finals at that meet, place in their event, etc) for Lia Thomas--who completed as a male NCAA swimmer for 3 years--is preposterous, anti-woman, and, I believe, in violation of Title IX. Every woman in the country should be up in arms about this and should demand change now.

If you can believe it, there is actually a transwoman suing under Title IX to overturn one of the state’s bans on transwomen competing against women. They think Title IX protects their “right” to an unfair competition. The transman at the ACLU who is leading the charge has actually suggested that she might file suit on behalf of Lia Thomas under Title IX.

This is ironic because a couple of women's groups have submitted a request to Pennsylvania authorities to investigate a potential Title IX violation and an act of indecent exposure due to Thomas exposing his (intact) genitals in the women's locker room:

https://womensdeclarationusa.com/letter-regarding-upenn-womens-swim-team/

It is ironic but not surprising. This is not the first time that the ACLU is suing to prevent information about public institutions from being release to the public. They are suing in Washington state to prevent information from being release to citizens about sexual assault (rape) committed by males against women in women's prisons. I fully expect that they will file suit on behalf of Lia as well.

No wonder Ira Glasser says the ACLU has lost its way. I have been a donor for over 15 years and my parents were donors for over 20 years before their deaths. That’s done with now. The might ACLU has become the militant arm of a wrongheaded movement of angry male misfits.

The fact that the ACLU and transactivists are fighting so hard to prevent data collection on what trans women are up to in female prisons is telling. When male offenders are unleashed upon women, what could go wrong? Heaven help us.

[Anonymous]

You can add the National Women’s Law Center to the list of organizations that has decided they don’t need my financial support. Their statement at https://nwlc.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Womens-Groups-Sign-on-Letter-Trans-Sports-4.9.19.pdf, makes clear that their position on trans women athletes in college women’s sports has not evolved to account for the growing body of evidence that these athletes do indeed have a biological advantage over cis women. Their position is also illogical and avoids critical analysis of the fair questions raised by cis women who feel abandoned by women’s organization.

They assert that “Efforts to pit transgender women against cisgender women, falsely claiming there is a zero-sum struggle for rights and protections in sports or any other sphere, are a deliberate strategy—including by transphobic and misogynist organizations—to divide our community and undermine collective work against discrimination. Such unfounded fear-mongering benefits nobody but distracts from deeply rooted inequalities harming women athletes.”

I have several problems with this statement: (1) It telegraphs their ignorance of sport and swimming in particular at the competitive HS or college level. Each team’s roster size is limited, the travel team roster size is limited, the spaces to swim one’s desired events are limited. So when a swimmer who has a biological advantage due to male puberty outswims a cis female swimmer, the trans swimmer is taking a discrete opportunity away from another swimmer (on the team, on the scholarship list, on the travel roster, on the relay, on the line-up for conference championships etc.) Competitive athletes care immensely about these opportunities and the COMPETITION FOR THESE OPPORTUNITIES IS A ZERO-SUM GAME. It’s not as if including trans women expands the lanes in a pool, or the size of a basketball team. How can it not be zero-sum??

I agree that not every trans athlete will automatically perform at an elite level. Elite cis female athletes are faster than most male athletes. But virtually any college male swimmer that has trained for years and has gone through male puberty would outswim most women if they transitioned in college like Lia Thomas did (hell-my HS son could outswim most college women swimmers). Born males have an undeniable advantage in swimming as detailed in the new U.S. Swimming Guidelines. I also agree that conservative news media is super committed to fear-mongering on this issue, but that does not excuse women’s organizations and liberals generally from closely examining the concerns raised by cis women athletes. Unlike some who have posted in this chain, a whole lot of us are generally supportive of trans rights, but nonetheless have concerns about the impact of trans women on fairness in women’s sports. We expect women’s organizations do more than dismiss these concerns with their illogical BS on display in this blog post. Someone with a law degree shold be smarter than just dismissing anything conservatives say are 100% wrong because they are saying it.

Dismissing the concerns about women’s sports as involving “a tiny number of trans college athletes” is not a logically coherent rationale unless your position would change if/when the number grows significantly. Policies need to be set to be fair to everyone. This argument is akin to saying, it’s ok if just a few 16 year old competes in a 12&U basketball league.
Finally, none of these organizations have made clear what criteria SHOULD be used to decide who should compete in the women’s sports. Presumably, they want to leave that up to each individuals choice. You would think that would be in line with gender identity is of the athlete. Yet, its also apparent that women's organizaitons don't want to "force" trans men to compete against men. This blatant inconsistency in their advocacy undermines their position and again reveals the lack of logic and critical thinking applied to analyze the fairness issues raised by allowing trans athletes to compete in women’s divisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can add the National Women’s Law Center to the list of organizations that has decided they don’t need my financial support. Their statement at https://nwlc.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Womens-Groups-Sign-on-Letter-Trans-Sports-4.9.19.pdf, makes clear that their position on trans women athletes in college women’s sports has not evolved to account for the growing body of evidence that these athletes do indeed have a biological advantage over cis women. Their position is also illogical and avoids critical analysis of the fair questions raised by cis women who feel abandoned by women’s organization.

They assert that “Efforts to pit transgender women against cisgender women, falsely claiming there is a zero-sum struggle for rights and protections in sports or any other sphere, are a deliberate strategy—including by transphobic and misogynist organizations—to divide our community and undermine collective work against discrimination. Such unfounded fear-mongering benefits nobody but distracts from deeply rooted inequalities harming women athletes.”

I have several problems with this statement: (1) It telegraphs their ignorance of sport and swimming in particular at the competitive HS or college level. Each team’s roster size is limited, the travel team roster size is limited, the spaces to swim one’s desired events are limited. So when a swimmer who has a biological advantage due to male puberty outswims a cis female swimmer, the trans swimmer is taking a discrete opportunity away from another swimmer (on the team, on the scholarship list, on the travel roster, on the relay, on the line-up for conference championships etc.) Competitive athletes care immensely about these opportunities and the COMPETITION FOR THESE OPPORTUNITIES IS A ZERO-SUM GAME. It’s not as if including trans women expands the lanes in a pool, or the size of a basketball team. How can it not be zero-sum??

I agree that not every trans athlete will automatically perform at an elite level. Elite cis female athletes are faster than most male athletes. But virtually any college male swimmer that has trained for years and has gone through male puberty would outswim most women if they transitioned in college like Lia Thomas did (hell-my HS son could outswim most college women swimmers). Born males have an undeniable advantage in swimming as detailed in the new U.S. Swimming Guidelines. I also agree that conservative news media is super committed to fear-mongering on this issue, but that does not excuse women’s organizations and liberals generally from closely examining the concerns raised by cis women athletes. Unlike some who have posted in this chain, a whole lot of us are generally supportive of trans rights, but nonetheless have concerns about the impact of trans women on fairness in women’s sports. We expect women’s organizations do more than dismiss these concerns with their illogical BS on display in this blog post. Someone with a law degree shold be smarter than just dismissing anything conservatives say are 100% wrong because they are saying it.

Dismissing the concerns about women’s sports as involving “a tiny number of trans college athletes” is not a logically coherent rationale unless your position would change if/when the number grows significantly. Policies need to be set to be fair to everyone. This argument is akin to saying, it’s ok if just a few 16 year old competes in a 12&U basketball league.
Finally, none of these organizations have made clear what criteria SHOULD be used to decide who should compete in the women’s sports. Presumably, they want to leave that up to each individuals choice. You would think that would be in line with gender identity is of the athlete. Yet, its also apparent that women's organizaitons don't want to "force" trans men to compete against men. This blatant inconsistency in their advocacy undermines their position and again reveals the lack of logic and critical thinking applied to analyze the fairness issues raised by allowing trans athletes to compete in women’s divisions.

Very well said.

In addition to the dismissiveness towards women’s concerns, a lot of these transactivist groups also suggest that women’s sports exist just for people to participate. They dismiss the idea that competition and winning matter in women’s sports. That is misogyny. It is misogynistic to suggest that women’s sports should be some kind of knitting circle in which women show up just to hang out and make friends. The refusal to take women seriously as competitors is horrible. It is disturbing that transwomen and their supporters consistently rely on resurrecting sexist stereotypes of women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can add the National Women’s Law Center to the list of organizations that has decided they don’t need my financial support. Their statement at https://nwlc.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Womens-Groups-Sign-on-Letter-Trans-Sports-4.9.19.pdf, makes clear that their position on trans women athletes in college women’s sports has not evolved to account for the growing body of evidence that these athletes do indeed have a biological advantage over cis women. Their position is also illogical and avoids critical analysis of the fair questions raised by cis women who feel abandoned by women’s organization.

They assert that “Efforts to pit transgender women against cisgender women, falsely claiming there is a zero-sum struggle for rights and protections in sports or any other sphere, are a deliberate strategy—including by transphobic and misogynist organizations—to divide our community and undermine collective work against discrimination. Such unfounded fear-mongering benefits nobody but distracts from deeply rooted inequalities harming women athletes.”

I have several problems with this statement: (1) It telegraphs their ignorance of sport and swimming in particular at the competitive HS or college level. Each team’s roster size is limited, the travel team roster size is limited, the spaces to swim one’s desired events are limited. So when a swimmer who has a biological advantage due to male puberty outswims a cis female swimmer, the trans swimmer is taking a discrete opportunity away from another swimmer (on the team, on the scholarship list, on the travel roster, on the relay, on the line-up for conference championships etc.) Competitive athletes care immensely about these opportunities and the COMPETITION FOR THESE OPPORTUNITIES IS A ZERO-SUM GAME. It’s not as if including trans women expands the lanes in a pool, or the size of a basketball team. How can it not be zero-sum??

I agree that not every trans athlete will automatically perform at an elite level. Elite cis female athletes are faster than most male athletes. But virtually any college male swimmer that has trained for years and has gone through male puberty would outswim most women if they transitioned in college like Lia Thomas did (hell-my HS son could outswim most college women swimmers). Born males have an undeniable advantage in swimming as detailed in the new U.S. Swimming Guidelines. I also agree that conservative news media is super committed to fear-mongering on this issue, but that does not excuse women’s organizations and liberals generally from closely examining the concerns raised by cis women athletes. Unlike some who have posted in this chain, a whole lot of us are generally supportive of trans rights, but nonetheless have concerns about the impact of trans women on fairness in women’s sports. We expect women’s organizations do more than dismiss these concerns with their illogical BS on display in this blog post. Someone with a law degree shold be smarter than just dismissing anything conservatives say are 100% wrong because they are saying it.

Dismissing the concerns about women’s sports as involving “a tiny number of trans college athletes” is not a logically coherent rationale unless your position would change if/when the number grows significantly. Policies need to be set to be fair to everyone. This argument is akin to saying, it’s ok if just a few 16 year old competes in a 12&U basketball league.
Finally, none of these organizations have made clear what criteria SHOULD be used to decide who should compete in the women’s sports. Presumably, they want to leave that up to each individuals choice. You would think that would be in line with gender identity is of the athlete. Yet, its also apparent that women's organizaitons don't want to "force" trans men to compete against men. This blatant inconsistency in their advocacy undermines their position and again reveals the lack of logic and critical thinking applied to analyze the fairness issues raised by allowing trans athletes to compete in women’s divisions.

Very well said.

In addition to the dismissiveness towards women’s concerns, a lot of these transactivist groups also suggest that women’s sports exist just for people to participate. They dismiss the idea that competition and winning matter in women’s sports. That is misogyny. It is misogynistic to suggest that women’s sports should be some kind of knitting circle in which women show up just to hang out and make friends. The refusal to take women seriously as competitors is horrible. It is disturbing that transwomen and their supporters consistently rely on resurrecting sexist stereotypes of women.

Is the bolder true? Do you have links or something? That is horrible if true.

[Anonymous]

^^^ bolded

[Anonymous]

The biological female swimmers should refuse to swim.
I understand how incredibly hard that would be, but I suspect that is the only way this ends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The biological female swimmers should refuse to swim.
I understand how incredibly hard that would be, but I suspect that is the only way this ends.

What do you think is going to happen to the swimmers if they do that? Trans activists are bullies and use threats and intimidation to get what they want. I suspect some of them are mentally unstable based on their actions. The swimmers could also risk their scholarships or future employment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find this really interesting as Henig’s body is essentially that of a female with their breasts removed, and swam faster than Thomas whose body is essentially male with a year of hormone suppression therapy. The actual times are in line with fast women’s times — not very impressive for Thomas whose recent fast times clearly reflected the physical advantages of having gone through puberty as a male. Maybe Thomas sort of loafed her races because of all the backlash, who knows. It also makes me think about how much breasts might really get in the way of fast swimming. I was a female swimmer and saw a lot of girls who dominated at ages 8-12 plateau and slow down once they hit puberty and developed curves. Those of us who didn’t develop curves (myself included, which I lamented at the time) tended to stay on an upward trajectory.

Children with precocious puberty may grow quickly at first and be tall, compared with their peers. But, because their bones mature more quickly than normal, they often stop growing earlier than usual. This can cause them to be shorter than average as adults.

Although swimmers with a wide variety of body types have found success in the sport, most at the international level tend to look similar, sporting tall and muscular bodies – typically with long torsos, long arms and short legs. This begs the question: If you could hypothetically build the perfect swimmer’s body in a lab, what would it look like?

Although it is not possible to create one body that is perfect for all events, as there are so many different distances and strokes, research has shown that there are certain physical characteristics which are conducive to creating the best swimmers.

Height
One of the most obvious physical factors that give swimmers a distinct advantage in the pool is height. This can clearly be seen in many of the elite international male swimmers. Nathan Adrian stands at 6 feet 6 inches tall (1.98m), and Kliment Kolesnikov and Michael Andrew both stand at 6 foot 5 inches tall (1.96m).
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/what-makes-the-perfect-swimmers-body/

Excellent post, but you are using “begs the question” incorrectly. Begs the question does not mean: leads to the question. If you mean leads to the question, use it. If you know what begs the question means, use it when the application materializes. (Hint: not very often).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find this really interesting as Henig’s body is essentially that of a female with their breasts removed, and swam faster than Thomas whose body is essentially male with a year of hormone suppression therapy. The actual times are in line with fast women’s times — not very impressive for Thomas whose recent fast times clearly reflected the physical advantages of having gone through puberty as a male. Maybe Thomas sort of loafed her races because of all the backlash, who knows. It also makes me think about how much breasts might really get in the way of fast swimming. I was a female swimmer and saw a lot of girls who dominated at ages 8-12 plateau and slow down once they hit puberty and developed curves. Those of us who didn’t develop curves (myself included, which I lamented at the time) tended to stay on an upward trajectory.

Children with precocious puberty may grow quickly at first and be tall, compared with their peers. But, because their bones mature more quickly than normal, they often stop growing earlier than usual. This can cause them to be shorter than average as adults.

Although swimmers with a wide variety of body types have found success in the sport, most at the international level tend to look similar, sporting tall and muscular bodies – typically with long torsos, long arms and short legs. This begs the question: If you could hypothetically build the perfect swimmer’s body in a lab, what would it look like?

Although it is not possible to create one body that is perfect for all events, as there are so many different distances and strokes, research has shown that there are certain physical characteristics which are conducive to creating the best swimmers.

Height
One of the most obvious physical factors that give swimmers a distinct advantage in the pool is height. This can clearly be seen in many of the elite international male swimmers. Nathan Adrian stands at 6 feet 6 inches tall (1.98m), and Kliment Kolesnikov and Michael Andrew both stand at 6 foot 5 inches tall (1.96m).
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/what-makes-the-perfect-swimmers-body/

Excellent post, but you are using “begs the question” incorrectly. Begs the question does not mean: leads to the question. If you mean leads to the question, use it. If you know what begs the question means, use it when the application materializes. (Hint: not very often).

I’m not pp, but even major news organizations use this phrase to mean “leads to the question” now. It is apparently one of those phrases that was misused so many times the meaning evolved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find this really interesting as Henig’s body is essentially that of a female with their breasts removed, and swam faster than Thomas whose body is essentially male with a year of hormone suppression therapy. The actual times are in line with fast women’s times — not very impressive for Thomas whose recent fast times clearly reflected the physical advantages of having gone through puberty as a male. Maybe Thomas sort of loafed her races because of all the backlash, who knows. It also makes me think about how much breasts might really get in the way of fast swimming. I was a female swimmer and saw a lot of girls who dominated at ages 8-12 plateau and slow down once they hit puberty and developed curves. Those of us who didn’t develop curves (myself included, which I lamented at the time) tended to stay on an upward trajectory.

Children with precocious puberty may grow quickly at first and be tall, compared with their peers. But, because their bones mature more quickly than normal, they often stop growing earlier than usual. This can cause them to be shorter than average as adults.

Although swimmers with a wide variety of body types have found success in the sport, most at the international level tend to look similar, sporting tall and muscular bodies – typically with long torsos, long arms and short legs. This begs the question: If you could hypothetically build the perfect swimmer’s body in a lab, what would it look like?

Although it is not possible to create one body that is perfect for all events, as there are so many different distances and strokes, research has shown that there are certain physical characteristics which are conducive to creating the best swimmers.

Height
One of the most obvious physical factors that give swimmers a distinct advantage in the pool is height. This can clearly be seen in many of the elite international male swimmers. Nathan Adrian stands at 6 feet 6 inches tall (1.98m), and Kliment Kolesnikov and Michael Andrew both stand at 6 foot 5 inches tall (1.96m).
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/what-makes-the-perfect-swimmers-body/

Excellent post, but you are using “begs the question” incorrectly. Begs the question does not mean: leads to the question. If you mean leads to the question, use it. If you know what begs the question means, use it when the application materializes. (Hint: not very often).

Oh lord who cares?? Take your pedantry elsewhere.