I’m confused! Trans swimmers Lia Thomas and Iszac Henig went head-to-head in the pool

[Anonymous]

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/a-look-at-the-numbers-and-times-no-denying-the-advantages-of-lia-thomas/

Swimming World is all over this. John Lohn has been doing an amazing job at providing the coverage and in-depth analysis needed here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm the PP and I also just don't care that much. I mean, I care about trans folks getting gender affirming healthcare, and employment protections, and general societal acceptance. I do not see a path in the current climate to opposing JUST collegiate sports without opposing other things that I think are basic human rights.

For someone like myself, who thinks the sports thing is a little unfair but does not otherwise feel like more rights for trans women = fewer rights for me, it makes sense to just be quiet about the sports thing.

I don't feel erased by the words "pregnant people" or "chest feeding." I don't feel sad because there might be a trans woman in my book club or whatever. My rights are not being eroded as a cis woman, and I'm extremely glad that my kids are growing up in a world where gender is far less prescriptive than it was.

So I'll just hush it about the sports thing, because I'd rather one thing be a little unfair than roll back basic rights for a big community.

Black woman here. Your position is the height of selfishness. YOU didn’t need sports to get where you’re going, so who cares if women are cheated out of everything sports performance can bring, right?

Have you considered that, for the poorest women, sports are a way forward?

I went to college on a track and field scholarship. Without that money, I wouldn’t have gone to college at all. I had no money and, as a green-card holder at the time, I wasn’t eligible for federal student loans. Moreover, as a black woman, there were very few mechanisms to catch me if I fell through the cracks. Placing 3rd at states and then placing 7th at nationals changed my life. Suddenly, I was being encouraged and pushed to go to college by programs seeking to recruit me. Suddenly, there was a way to pay for it all. Suddenly, it wasn’t selfish to tell my parents I wanted to go to college. Before that, saying I wanted to go to college was basically saying that I want to bankrupt the family for my own personal ambitions.

In sports competition, all that matters is how you place at the big meets. If somebody edges you out and you don’t medal, that could be life changing. Girls outside the top 10 didn’t get the looks that I got, didn’t get the push that I got, didn’t get recruited the same way that I was. There’s also the fact that my parents would’ve never supported my track and field ambitions if I hadn’t been them in placing well. They would have pulled me out to babysit or get a job after school.

You throw in one or two trans women to knock women off the podium and push everyone a couple spots down and the women pushed out of the top 10 are out of contention for good. The women who would’ve medalled and who didn’t are robbed of opportunities. The ripple effects are massive. Now, imagine more than just one or two trans women. It’s already happening in women’s basketball.

For a man, who has had the advantage of male privilege all of his life, to be allowed to rob a woman of the opportunities that she has earned is unconscionable. You white women (and it’s almost always white women shrugging at the way women are being displaced by the trans movement) who support this think only of yourselves and it is disgusting. There is nothing progressive about your position. You don’t care because you’re comfortable and because you can ride middle class white privilege. To hell with the most vulnerable women like me, right?

Thank you for sharing your experience and for explaining how this is not good for women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

Your posts are some of the best I’ve ever read. Please, raise your voice even louder. I HEAR YOU.

+1

Black PP here.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart to both of you and everyone who has posted in support.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

Your posts are some of the best I’ve ever read. Please, raise your voice even louder. I HEAR YOU.

+1

Totally agree. I wish I could clap for every line you’ve written. You are an amazing writer who is telling some deep truths.

Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

Your posts are some of the best I’ve ever read. Please, raise your voice even louder. I HEAR YOU.

+3 or 4 or whatever we’re up to. I don’t want to see trans rights erased, but I also don’t want Black and brown and White women at the margins to absorb the impact, and you put this so kindly and thoughtfully.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

Your posts are some of the best I’ve ever read. Please, raise your voice even louder. I HEAR YOU.

+1

Totally agree. I wish I could clap for every line you’ve written. You are an amazing writer who is telling some deep truths.

Thank you.

+1. Are there any examples of a Black trans woman doing something like Lia Thomas is doing? I can’t help but think that none of this would be happening if it weren’t being done by someone who was born a white male. Based on Lia’s interviews there seems to be a sense of entitlement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

Your posts are some of the best I’ve ever read. Please, raise your voice even louder. I HEAR YOU.

+1

Totally agree. I wish I could clap for every line you’ve written. You are an amazing writer who is telling some deep truths.

Thank you.

+1. Are there any examples of a Black trans woman doing something like Lia Thomas is doing? I can’t help but think that none of this would be happening if it weren’t being done by someone who was born a white male. Based on Lia’s interviews there seems to be a sense of entitlement.

Yes. One of the trans-athletes on the connecticut girls track team situation which basically started this conversation at a national level was black.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

If this thread is any indication, we do. Those of us who are progressive but not super active might not have the word wherewithal to make points cogently. Without your story, I would not have the words to articulate why trans women do not belong in women’s sports at a competitive level. That doesn’t mean I don’t agree, that means I couldn’t articulate it, and, as I said above, I certainly don’t want to give the appearance of agreeing with trumpsters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

If this thread is any indication, we do. Those of us who are progressive but not super active might not have the word wherewithal to make points cogently. Without your story, I would not have the words to articulate why trans women do not belong in women’s sports at a competitive level. That doesn’t mean I don’t agree, that means I couldn’t articulate it, and, as I said above, I certainly don’t want to give the appearance of agreeing with trumpsters.

DP. But at a certain point, on this issue, you will have to not just give the appearance of agreeing with Trumpsters, but actually agree with them, if you want to truly acknowledge what the black athlete PP is saying. The unfortunate truth when it comes to sports is that they absolutely are a zero sum game. The marginalized athletes like the black athlete PP above are either on the podium or they are not. They either win the scholarship for women athletes or they do not. Are you okay with this? Or are you not?

This is one of those issues where there is a literal winner and a literal loser. And the progressives may not like it, but their support for trans rights in athletics is literally closing off avenues for marginalized women. That is the point that PP wants acknowledged, I think (though I am loathe to speak for someone so thoughtful in her writing as I am sure I am not as good at it).

In other words, I see the issue of trans women in women’s athletics as one of those unusual issues where there isn’t a lot of room for nuance precisely because of the zero sum aspect of sports. That means you may find yourself on the side of Trumpers. I’m not sure there is a way to thread this needle without marginalizing someone, unfortunately. The question is which group bears the burden.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

If this thread is any indication, we do. Those of us who are progressive but not super active might not have the word wherewithal to make points cogently. Without your story, I would not have the words to articulate why trans women do not belong in women’s sports at a competitive level. That doesn’t mean I don’t agree, that means I couldn’t articulate it, and, as I said above, I certainly don’t want to give the appearance of agreeing with trumpsters.

DP. But at a certain point, on this issue, you will have to not just give the appearance of agreeing with Trumpsters, but actually agree with them, if you want to truly acknowledge what the black athlete PP is saying. The unfortunate truth when it comes to sports is that they absolutely are a zero sum game. The marginalized athletes like the black athlete PP above are either on the podium or they are not. They either win the scholarship for women athletes or they do not. Are you okay with this? Or are you not?

This is one of those issues where there is a literal winner and a literal loser. And the progressives may not like it, but their support for trans rights in athletics is literally closing off avenues for marginalized women. That is the point that PP wants acknowledged, I think (though I am loathe to speak for someone so thoughtful in her writing as I am sure I am not as good at it).

In other words, I see the issue of trans women in women’s athletics as one of those unusual issues where there isn’t a lot of room for nuance precisely because of the zero sum aspect of sports. That means you may find yourself on the side of Trumpers. I’m not sure there is a way to thread this needle without marginalizing someone, unfortunately. The question is which group bears the burden.

You haven’t read my post, let alone the thread, very well at all if this is your conclusion about the feelings about progressives.

I do not support trans women’s rights to compete in athletics but I have struggled with articulating why not. The Black athletic PP (can you sign your posts with a fake name?) articulates why. Another PP up thread said it well: no, it’s not fair that trans women have no business competing alongside born women, but life isn’t fair.

I will call trans women women, I will support their right to be treated like humans, to live in peace and safety, and to love who they want, but when they are taking away chances for women and making women invisible* they have gone a step too far.

*like the phrase ”menstruating people.” I understand that not all trans men have had or are planning to have gender confirming bottom surgery, but it is women who menstruate. https://www.vox.com/22935125/covid-vaccine-trials-menstrual-cycle-period-changes-fertility-myths

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

If this thread is any indication, we do. Those of us who are progressive but not super active might not have the word wherewithal to make points cogently. Without your story, I would not have the words to articulate why trans women do not belong in women’s sports at a competitive level. That doesn’t mean I don’t agree, that means I couldn’t articulate it, and, as I said above, I certainly don’t want to give the appearance of agreeing with trumpsters.

DP. But at a certain point, on this issue, you will have to not just give the appearance of agreeing with Trumpsters, but actually agree with them, if you want to truly acknowledge what the black athlete PP is saying. The unfortunate truth when it comes to sports is that they absolutely are a zero sum game. The marginalized athletes like the black athlete PP above are either on the podium or they are not. They either win the scholarship for women athletes or they do not. Are you okay with this? Or are you not?

This is one of those issues where there is a literal winner and a literal loser. And the progressives may not like it, but their support for trans rights in athletics is literally closing off avenues for marginalized women. That is the point that PP wants acknowledged, I think (though I am loathe to speak for someone so thoughtful in her writing as I am sure I am not as good at it).

In other words, I see the issue of trans women in women’s athletics as one of those unusual issues where there isn’t a lot of room for nuance precisely because of the zero sum aspect of sports. That means you may find yourself on the side of Trumpers. I’m not sure there is a way to thread this needle without marginalizing someone, unfortunately. The question is which group bears the burden.

You haven’t read my post, let alone the thread, very well at all if this is your conclusion about the feelings about progressives.

I do not support trans women’s rights to compete in athletics but I have struggled with articulating why not. The Black athletic PP (can you sign your posts with a fake name?) articulates why. Another PP up thread said it well: no, it’s not fair that trans women have no business competing alongside born women, but life isn’t fair.

I will call trans women women, I will support their right to be treated like humans, to live in peace and safety, and to love who they want, but when they are taking away chances for women and making women invisible* they have gone a step too far.

*like the phrase ”menstruating people.” I understand that not all trans men have had or are planning to have gender confirming bottom surgery, but it is women who menstruate. https://www.vox.com/22935125/covid-vaccine-trials-menstrual-cycle-period-changes-fertility-myths

You can’t deny that the progressive position is that transwomen belong in women’s sports full stop. The black athlete PP (oh how I wish you could choose a name or sign your posts so I could use a name you prefer) posted about her experience of being called slurs by white transwomen when she raised issues of sports equity in progressive organizations. And Lia Thomas compares herself to Jackie Robinson, as do some progressive organizations that support her. (Never mind that Lia comes from a spectacularly privileged background and is seeking to remove the less privileged, while Jackie Robinson was exactly the opposite.)

I read your post, and I saw that you are progressive but agree that sports is different. But you also said you don’t want to give the appearance of agreeing with Trumpers. My point is that in this specific issue, you DO agree with Trumpers (even if you are completely opposed to, say, discrimination against transwomen in every other context) and if you are going to talk with progressive peers about it, you need to be prepared to accept the consequences that come with that.

And because transwomen as a group do hold enormous power and privilege in our society, especially the white ones, talking about the impact on marginalized women to this approach to women’s sports comes with risks. The black athlete PP has already experienced slurs like the use of the N-word, and I suspect that her truth-telling comes at a risk to her job and she probably has to think carefully about when and how she makes her points.

All I am saying is that if you are going to talk about this issue, you have to stop worrying about the appearance of being on the same side as the Trumpers. Personally I think there should be a way to do this. If we are so far gone as a society that we cannot at least acknowledge that biological females are profoundly different than transwomen physically and that difference has impact on equitable sports access, while at the same time strenuously protecting trans civil rights, I do not think there is much hope for resolving the deep and harmful polarization we have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You can’t deny that the progressive position is that transwomen belong in women’s sports full stop. The black athlete PP (oh how I wish you could choose a name or sign your posts so I could use a name you prefer) posted about her experience of being called slurs by white transwomen when she raised issues of sports equity in progressive organizations. And Lia Thomas compares herself to Jackie Robinson, as do some progressive organizations that support her. (Never mind that Lia comes from a spectacularly privileged background and is seeking to remove the less privileged, while Jackie Robinson was exactly the opposite.)

[…]

Again, this thread’s progressives say you’re wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

If this thread is any indication, we do. Those of us who are progressive but not super active might not have the word wherewithal to make points cogently. Without your story, I would not have the words to articulate why trans women do not belong in women’s sports at a competitive level. That doesn’t mean I don’t agree, that means I couldn’t articulate it, and, as I said above, I certainly don’t want to give the appearance of agreeing with trumpsters.

DP. But at a certain point, on this issue, you will have to not just give the appearance of agreeing with Trumpsters, but actually agree with them, if you want to truly acknowledge what the black athlete PP is saying. The unfortunate truth when it comes to sports is that they absolutely are a zero sum game. The marginalized athletes like the black athlete PP above are either on the podium or they are not. They either win the scholarship for women athletes or they do not. Are you okay with this? Or are you not?

This is one of those issues where there is a literal winner and a literal loser. And the progressives may not like it, but their support for trans rights in athletics is literally closing off avenues for marginalized women. That is the point that PP wants acknowledged, I think (though I am loathe to speak for someone so thoughtful in her writing as I am sure I am not as good at it).

In other words, I see the issue of trans women in women’s athletics as one of those unusual issues where there isn’t a lot of room for nuance precisely because of the zero sum aspect of sports. That means you may find yourself on the side of Trumpers. I’m not sure there is a way to thread this needle without marginalizing someone, unfortunately. The question is which group bears the burden.

You haven’t read my post, let alone the thread, very well at all if this is your conclusion about the feelings about progressives.

I do not support trans women’s rights to compete in athletics but I have struggled with articulating why not. The Black athletic PP (can you sign your posts with a fake name?) articulates why. Another PP up thread said it well: no, it’s not fair that trans women have no business competing alongside born women, but life isn’t fair.

I will call trans women women, I will support their right to be treated like humans, to live in peace and safety, and to love who they want, but when they are taking away chances for women and making women invisible* they have gone a step too far.

*like the phrase ”menstruating people.” I understand that not all trans men have had or are planning to have gender confirming bottom surgery, but it is women who menstruate. https://www.vox.com/22935125/covid-vaccine-trials-menstrual-cycle-period-changes-fertility-myths

And transgender men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You can’t deny that the progressive position is that transwomen belong in women’s sports full stop. The black athlete PP (oh how I wish you could choose a name or sign your posts so I could use a name you prefer) posted about her experience of being called slurs by white transwomen when she raised issues of sports equity in progressive organizations. And Lia Thomas compares herself to Jackie Robinson, as do some progressive organizations that support her. (Never mind that Lia comes from a spectacularly privileged background and is seeking to remove the less privileged, while Jackie Robinson was exactly the opposite.)

[…]

Again, this thread’s progressives say you’re wrong.

Dp. I don’t really understand what you’re saying. That’s clearly the stated position of organizations on the left. The Democratic Party, the ACLU, the HRC. Women who disagree are labeled as TERFs and drummed out of these places and deplatformed repeatedly. Sure, there are women who consider themselves progressive and disagree with TW in women’s sports, but that would not be considered a “progressive position”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

If this thread is any indication, we do. Those of us who are progressive but not super active might not have the word wherewithal to make points cogently. Without your story, I would not have the words to articulate why trans women do not belong in women’s sports at a competitive level. That doesn’t mean I don’t agree, that means I couldn’t articulate it, and, as I said above, I certainly don’t want to give the appearance of agreeing with trumpsters.

DP. But at a certain point, on this issue, you will have to not just give the appearance of agreeing with Trumpsters, but actually agree with them, if you want to truly acknowledge what the black athlete PP is saying. The unfortunate truth when it comes to sports is that they absolutely are a zero sum game. The marginalized athletes like the black athlete PP above are either on the podium or they are not. They either win the scholarship for women athletes or they do not. Are you okay with this? Or are you not?

This is one of those issues where there is a literal winner and a literal loser. And the progressives may not like it, but their support for trans rights in athletics is literally closing off avenues for marginalized women. That is the point that PP wants acknowledged, I think (though I am loathe to speak for someone so thoughtful in her writing as I am sure I am not as good at it).

In other words, I see the issue of trans women in women’s athletics as one of those unusual issues where there isn’t a lot of room for nuance precisely because of the zero sum aspect of sports. That means you may find yourself on the side of Trumpers. I’m not sure there is a way to thread this needle without marginalizing someone, unfortunately. The question is which group bears the burden.

You haven’t read my post, let alone the thread, very well at all if this is your conclusion about the feelings about progressives.

I do not support trans women’s rights to compete in athletics but I have struggled with articulating why not. The Black athletic PP (can you sign your posts with a fake name?) articulates why. Another PP up thread said it well: no, it’s not fair that trans women have no business competing alongside born women, but life isn’t fair.

I will call trans women women, I will support their right to be treated like humans, to live in peace and safety, and to love who they want, but when they are taking away chances for women and making women invisible* they have gone a step too far.

*like the phrase ”menstruating people.” I understand that not all trans men have had or are planning to have gender confirming bottom surgery, but it is women who menstruate. https://www.vox.com/22935125/covid-vaccine-trials-menstrual-cycle-period-changes-fertility-myths

And transgender men.

That’s fine. Doesn’t mean we have to change the language of the 99% to accommodate the 1%. They may identify as men, but they have a women’s body.