I’m confused! Trans swimmers Lia Thomas and Iszac Henig went head-to-head in the pool

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You can’t deny that the progressive position is that transwomen belong in women’s sports full stop. The black athlete PP (oh how I wish you could choose a name or sign your posts so I could use a name you prefer) posted about her experience of being called slurs by white transwomen when she raised issues of sports equity in progressive organizations. And Lia Thomas compares herself to Jackie Robinson, as do some progressive organizations that support her. (Never mind that Lia comes from a spectacularly privileged background and is seeking to remove the less privileged, while Jackie Robinson was exactly the opposite.)

[…]

Again, this thread’s progressives say you’re wrong.

Can you provide the name of a single progressive organization, NGO, non-profit, etc. that is publicly not taking that position? As far as I know, they are either silent or publicly endorsing the position that transwomen belong in women’s sports entirely. None of them are taking the position that transwomen should not be in women’s sports.

Progressives in this thread may have private opinions, but their organizations aren’t supporting anything other than a rigid position that transwomen belong in women’s sports, full stop, regardless of impact on marginalized women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You can’t deny that the progressive position is that transwomen belong in women’s sports full stop. The black athlete PP (oh how I wish you could choose a name or sign your posts so I could use a name you prefer) posted about her experience of being called slurs by white transwomen when she raised issues of sports equity in progressive organizations. And Lia Thomas compares herself to Jackie Robinson, as do some progressive organizations that support her. (Never mind that Lia comes from a spectacularly privileged background and is seeking to remove the less privileged, while Jackie Robinson was exactly the opposite.)

[…]

Again, this thread’s progressives say you’re wrong.

Dp. I don’t really understand what you’re saying. That’s clearly the stated position of organizations on the left. The Democratic Party, the ACLU, the HRC. Women who disagree are labeled as TERFs and drummed out of these places and deplatformed repeatedly. Sure, there are women who consider themselves progressive and disagree with TW in women’s sports, but that would not be considered a “progressive position”.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

If this thread is any indication, we do. Those of us who are progressive but not super active might not have the word wherewithal to make points cogently. Without your story, I would not have the words to articulate why trans women do not belong in women’s sports at a competitive level. That doesn’t mean I don’t agree, that means I couldn’t articulate it, and, as I said above, I certainly don’t want to give the appearance of agreeing with trumpsters.

DP. But at a certain point, on this issue, you will have to not just give the appearance of agreeing with Trumpsters, but actually agree with them, if you want to truly acknowledge what the black athlete PP is saying. The unfortunate truth when it comes to sports is that they absolutely are a zero sum game. The marginalized athletes like the black athlete PP above are either on the podium or they are not. They either win the scholarship for women athletes or they do not. Are you okay with this? Or are you not?

This is one of those issues where there is a literal winner and a literal loser. And the progressives may not like it, but their support for trans rights in athletics is literally closing off avenues for marginalized women. That is the point that PP wants acknowledged, I think (though I am loathe to speak for someone so thoughtful in her writing as I am sure I am not as good at it).

In other words, I see the issue of trans women in women’s athletics as one of those unusual issues where there isn’t a lot of room for nuance precisely because of the zero sum aspect of sports. That means you may find yourself on the side of Trumpers. I’m not sure there is a way to thread this needle without marginalizing someone, unfortunately. The question is which group bears the burden.

Exactly! I called the National Women's Law Center out above. They say in a blog post "Efforts to pit transgender women against cisgender women, falsely claiming there is a zero-sum struggle for rights and protections in sports or any other sphere, are a deliberate strategy—including by transphobic and misogynist organizations—to divide our community and undermine collective work against discrimination. " This may be true, but it COMPLETELY MISSES THE KEY POINT THAT IT IS A ZERO SUM GAME AND THE POLICY THEY SUPPORT GIVES AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE TO TRANSWOMEN ATHLETES AT THE EXPENSE OF CIS WOMEN ATHLETES. Your desire to differentiate yourself from Trumpers does not excuse denying facts and sticking your head in the sand to pretend you are not harming cis women. Stupid and unfair is stupid and unfair, even if the the Trumpers happen to be right to point it out. If you just form your opinion to align yourself against the Trumpers EVEN WHEN THEY ARE RIGHT, you are part of the problem. And at the moment ALL of the progressive "women's rights" organizations are part of the problem. The progressives deserve to get clobbered on this issue in the next election.
Signed- A thinking liberal who is former college athlete, mother of a current cis woman college athlete, and lifelong Democratic voter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

If this thread is any indication, we do. Those of us who are progressive but not super active might not have the word wherewithal to make points cogently. Without your story, I would not have the words to articulate why trans women do not belong in women’s sports at a competitive level. That doesn’t mean I don’t agree, that means I couldn’t articulate it, and, as I said above, I certainly don’t want to give the appearance of agreeing with trumpsters.

DP. But at a certain point, on this issue, you will have to not just give the appearance of agreeing with Trumpsters, but actually agree with them, if you want to truly acknowledge what the black athlete PP is saying. The unfortunate truth when it comes to sports is that they absolutely are a zero sum game. The marginalized athletes like the black athlete PP above are either on the podium or they are not. They either win the scholarship for women athletes or they do not. Are you okay with this? Or are you not?

This is one of those issues where there is a literal winner and a literal loser. And the progressives may not like it, but their support for trans rights in athletics is literally closing off avenues for marginalized women. That is the point that PP wants acknowledged, I think (though I am loathe to speak for someone so thoughtful in her writing as I am sure I am not as good at it).

In other words, I see the issue of trans women in women’s athletics as one of those unusual issues where there isn’t a lot of room for nuance precisely because of the zero sum aspect of sports. That means you may find yourself on the side of Trumpers. I’m not sure there is a way to thread this needle without marginalizing someone, unfortunately. The question is which group bears the burden.

Exactly! I called the National Women's Law Center out above. They say in a blog post "Efforts to pit transgender women against cisgender women, falsely claiming there is a zero-sum struggle for rights and protections in sports or any other sphere, are a deliberate strategy—including by transphobic and misogynist organizations—to divide our community and undermine collective work against discrimination. " This may be true, but it COMPLETELY MISSES THE KEY POINT THAT IT IS A ZERO SUM GAME AND THE POLICY THEY SUPPORT GIVES AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE TO TRANSWOMEN ATHLETES AT THE EXPENSE OF CIS WOMEN ATHLETES. Your desire to differentiate yourself from Trumpers does not excuse denying facts and sticking your head in the sand to pretend you are not harming cis women. Stupid and unfair is stupid and unfair, even if the the Trumpers happen to be right to point it out. If you just form your opinion to align yourself against the Trumpers EVEN WHEN THEY ARE RIGHT, you are part of the problem. And at the moment ALL of the progressive "women's rights" organizations are part of the problem. The progressives deserve to get clobbered on this issue in the next election.
Signed- A thinking liberal who is former college athlete, mother of a current cis woman college athlete, and lifelong Democratic voter.

You missed their point.

They are saying that they want to EXPAND access for all women. Increase the total number of opportunities. Address the gaps.
Instead of pitting cisgender vs. transgender women against each other for the scraps, they want to:
"A full 50 years after Title IX mandated equal treatment in school athletics, there is a persistent gap in resources allotted to girls, especially girls of color. Professional women athletes still file lawsuits and threaten to strike over vastly unequal pay. Student athletes still experience high rates of sexual harassment, including assault. Yet, the insulting myth that trans athletes are “taking away” trophies from cis athletes continues to find a place in the narrative about trans athletes. As gender justice advocates, we demand time and energy go toward these urgent issues affecting women and nonbinary student athletes. "
https://nwlc.org/dear-ncaa-its-not-too-late-to-let-trans-intersex-students-play/

"Auditing school funding for racial disparities, funding efforts to integrate sports programs in racially segregated areas, and making the Department of Education an active partner in this fight are all critical steps lawmakers can take to strengthen girls’ sports opportunities and close the gaps many girls still fall through. "
https://nwlc.org/stop-using-girl-athletes-to-justify-your-transphobia/

"Everyone wins when we extend athletic opportunities to more women and when we treat one another fairly."
https://www.si.com/wnba/2021/03/31/cheryl-reeve-minnesota-lynx-transgender-athletes-jaycee-cooper-powerlifting

They want to address the baseline inequities that affect all women instead of focusing on the tiny number of transgender athletes. Hyperpoliticalization of this issue is taking away from large-scale issues in women's sports.

-thinking liberal who is a former div 1 athlete & mother of cis-gender HS athlete and who reads the full blog post

[Anonymous]

I don’t really buy the idea that pointing out the issues of transgender women in women’s sports leads to loss of opportunities for all women athletes. That seems like something said to shut women up more than anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t really buy the idea that pointing out the issues of transgender women in women’s sports leads to loss of opportunities for all women athletes. That seems like something said to shut women up more than anything.

You really think the anti-trans frenzy isn’t sucking up all of the oxygen?

Imagine if all of that angst and energy over transgender athletes across the political spectrum was funneled into advocating for women in sports. Instead of fighting against the infinitesimally-small number of elite transgender athletes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

If this thread is any indication, we do. Those of us who are progressive but not super active might not have the word wherewithal to make points cogently. Without your story, I would not have the words to articulate why trans women do not belong in women’s sports at a competitive level. That doesn’t mean I don’t agree, that means I couldn’t articulate it, and, as I said above, I certainly don’t want to give the appearance of agreeing with trumpsters.

DP. But at a certain point, on this issue, you will have to not just give the appearance of agreeing with Trumpsters, but actually agree with them, if you want to truly acknowledge what the black athlete PP is saying. The unfortunate truth when it comes to sports is that they absolutely are a zero sum game. The marginalized athletes like the black athlete PP above are either on the podium or they are not. They either win the scholarship for women athletes or they do not. Are you okay with this? Or are you not?

This is one of those issues where there is a literal winner and a literal loser. And the progressives may not like it, but their support for trans rights in athletics is literally closing off avenues for marginalized women. That is the point that PP wants acknowledged, I think (though I am loathe to speak for someone so thoughtful in her writing as I am sure I am not as good at it).

In other words, I see the issue of trans women in women’s athletics as one of those unusual issues where there isn’t a lot of room for nuance precisely because of the zero sum aspect of sports. That means you may find yourself on the side of Trumpers. I’m not sure there is a way to thread this needle without marginalizing someone, unfortunately. The question is which group bears the burden.

Exactly! I called the National Women's Law Center out above. They say in a blog post "Efforts to pit transgender women against cisgender women, falsely claiming there is a zero-sum struggle for rights and protections in sports or any other sphere, are a deliberate strategy—including by transphobic and misogynist organizations—to divide our community and undermine collective work against discrimination. " This may be true, but it COMPLETELY MISSES THE KEY POINT THAT IT IS A ZERO SUM GAME AND THE POLICY THEY SUPPORT GIVES AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE TO TRANSWOMEN ATHLETES AT THE EXPENSE OF CIS WOMEN ATHLETES. Your desire to differentiate yourself from Trumpers does not excuse denying facts and sticking your head in the sand to pretend you are not harming cis women. Stupid and unfair is stupid and unfair, even if the the Trumpers happen to be right to point it out. If you just form your opinion to align yourself against the Trumpers EVEN WHEN THEY ARE RIGHT, you are part of the problem. And at the moment ALL of the progressive "women's rights" organizations are part of the problem. The progressives deserve to get clobbered on this issue in the next election.
Signed- A thinking liberal who is former college athlete, mother of a current cis woman college athlete, and lifelong Democratic voter.

You missed their point.

They are saying that they want to EXPAND access for all women. Increase the total number of opportunities. Address the gaps.
Instead of pitting cisgender vs. transgender women against each other for the scraps, they want to:
"A full 50 years after Title IX mandated equal treatment in school athletics, there is a persistent gap in resources allotted to girls, especially girls of color. Professional women athletes still file lawsuits and threaten to strike over vastly unequal pay. Student athletes still experience high rates of sexual harassment, including assault. Yet, the insulting myth that trans athletes are “taking away” trophies from cis athletes continues to find a place in the narrative about trans athletes. As gender justice advocates, we demand time and energy go toward these urgent issues affecting women and nonbinary student athletes. "
https://nwlc.org/dear-ncaa-its-not-too-late-to-let-trans-intersex-students-play/

"Auditing school funding for racial disparities, funding efforts to integrate sports programs in racially segregated areas, and making the Department of Education an active partner in this fight are all critical steps lawmakers can take to strengthen girls’ sports opportunities and close the gaps many girls still fall through. "
https://nwlc.org/stop-using-girl-athletes-to-justify-your-transphobia/

"Everyone wins when we extend athletic opportunities to more women and when we treat one another fairly."
https://www.si.com/wnba/2021/03/31/cheryl-reeve-minnesota-lynx-transgender-athletes-jaycee-cooper-powerlifting

They want to address the baseline inequities that affect all women instead of focusing on the tiny number of transgender athletes. Hyperpoliticalization of this issue is taking away from large-scale issues in women's sports.

-thinking liberal who is a former div 1 athlete & mother of cis-gender HS athlete and who reads the full blog post

Oh I read it. Their entire position is an effort to distract and ignore fact that transwomen are taking opportunities away from cis wonen. The message is “that doesn’t matter.” They base their position on the incorrect assertion that it’s not a “zero sum game.”

[jsteele]

I am sorry to do it, but I am going to lock this thread. Too many transphobes are posting. I have had to remove posts from this thread almost every day and I've lost patience with it. BTW, the Black athlete poster turned out to be a raging transphobe. She just didn't identify herself when she posted her most bigoted posts. Very deceptive.