I’m confused! Trans swimmers Lia Thomas and Iszac Henig went head-to-head in the pool

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Enough.

Out Magazine did the research. In the 10 years since the NCAA adopted its latest set of rules regarding trans athlete participation there have been a grand total of 27 trans athletes, MtF and FtM, who have participated in a and college sport. That’s NCAA, NAIA, and Junior college. So - far more than 1,000,000 college athletes over that same 10 year period. And, so far, the only trans athlete to win any championship- either individually or as a team - is CeCe Telfer who ran a 57.53 400m hurdles in 2019. That time would not have put her in the D1 finals for that event.

So?
You don't think the number of trans athletes will increase in the next couple of years?
I do. Considerably.
At the expense of biological women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Enough.

Out Magazine did the research. In the 10 years since the NCAA adopted its latest set of rules regarding trans athlete participation there have been a grand total of 27 trans athletes, MtF and FtM, who have participated in a and college sport. That’s NCAA, NAIA, and Junior college. So - far more than 1,000,000 college athletes over that same 10 year period. And, so far, the only trans athlete to win any championship- either individually or as a team - is CeCe Telfer who ran a 57.53 400m hurdles in 2019. That time would not have put her in the D1 finals for that event.

The landscape has changed dramatically in the last ten years. This is an issue that will continue to grow.

[Anonymous]

Let's have trans sports and keep that category away from cis sports

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s get this out of the way : No transphobic comments so this thread doesn’t get shut down.

Now, I don’t have an issue with trans-athletes competing on their new gendered team as long as the appropriate changes have been made relative to the sports requirements. That said, I don’t understand why there is a trans man is competing on the Yale’s female swim team. How does that make any sense, this person should WANT to be on the male swim team. Doesn’t this make it an open/mixed team.

Here is the article : https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/9/22874147/lia-thomas-iszac-henig-penn-swimming-transgender-athlete-yale-ncaa-ivy

The headline: Thomas showed slower times in her two wins, as Yale transgender swimmer Iszac Henig showed speed, beating Thomas head-to-head.

Henig was apparently with the team before becoming a trans man. He specifically did not do his hormone treatments so as not to be ineligible to compete this last time with his teammates.

Okay, that’s nice and all but I’m sure it causes him great gender dysphasia to stay. I’m sure he doesn’t feel comfortable. Why didn’t he switch teams

I have this same question. It is confusing why he dies not want to swim on a men's team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Enough.

Out Magazine did the research. In the 10 years since the NCAA adopted its latest set of rules regarding trans athlete participation there have been a grand total of 27 trans athletes, MtF and FtM, who have participated in a and college sport. That’s NCAA, NAIA, and Junior college. So - far more than 1,000,000 college athletes over that same 10 year period. And, so far, the only trans athlete to win any championship- either individually or as a team - is CeCe Telfer who ran a 57.53 400m hurdles in 2019. That time would not have put her in the D1 finals for that event.

So?
You don't think the number of trans athletes will increase in the next couple of years?
I do. Considerably.
At the expense of biological women.

And your proof?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s get this out of the way : No transphobic comments so this thread doesn’t get shut down.

Now, I don’t have an issue with trans-athletes competing on their new gendered team as long as the appropriate changes have been made relative to the sports requirements. That said, I don’t understand why there is a trans man is competing on the Yale’s female swim team. How does that make any sense, this person should WANT to be on the male swim team. Doesn’t this make it an open/mixed team.

Here is the article : https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/9/22874147/lia-thomas-iszac-henig-penn-swimming-transgender-athlete-yale-ncaa-ivy

The headline: Thomas showed slower times in her two wins, as Yale transgender swimmer Iszac Henig showed speed, beating Thomas head-to-head.

Henig was apparently with the team before becoming a trans man. He specifically did not do his hormone treatments so as not to be ineligible to compete this last time with his teammates.

Okay, that’s nice and all but I’m sure it causes him great gender dysphasia to stay. I’m sure he doesn’t feel comfortable. Why didn’t he switch teams

I have this same question. It is confusing why he dies not want to swim on a men's team.

Not to his advantage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Enough.

Out Magazine did the research. In the 10 years since the NCAA adopted its latest set of rules regarding trans athlete participation there have been a grand total of 27 trans athletes, MtF and FtM, who have participated in a and college sport. That’s NCAA, NAIA, and Junior college. So - far more than 1,000,000 college athletes over that same 10 year period. And, so far, the only trans athlete to win any championship- either individually or as a team - is CeCe Telfer who ran a 57.53 400m hurdles in 2019. That time would not have put her in the D1 finals for that event.

So?
You don't think the number of trans athletes will increase in the next couple of years?
I do. Considerably.
At the expense of biological women.

And your proof?

Wait a year. You'll see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Enough.

Out Magazine did the research. In the 10 years since the NCAA adopted its latest set of rules regarding trans athlete participation there have been a grand total of 27 trans athletes, MtF and FtM, who have participated in a and college sport. That’s NCAA, NAIA, and Junior college. So - far more than 1,000,000 college athletes over that same 10 year period. And, so far, the only trans athlete to win any championship- either individually or as a team - is CeCe Telfer who ran a 57.53 400m hurdles in 2019. That time would not have put her in the D1 finals for that event.

So?
You don't think the number of trans athletes will increase in the next couple of years?
I do. Considerably.
At the expense of biological women.

And your proof?

Wait a year. You'll see.

So - no proof at all. Considered there are not 40 MtF or FtM trans athletes participating in high school today - out of about 6,000,000 high school athletes unless you have some proof - take your anti -trans, and anti-lgbt rhetoric elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The thing that bothers me about this issue is that by allowing trans women athletes who went through male puberty to compete against women, we are adopting a form of affirmative action for trans female athletes (but not trans male). That might be justified, but no one’s talking about why that is or is not the case. I am very bothered by the fact that this affirmative action is taken at the sole cost to other female athletes who we decided needed their athletic opportunities protected, which is why we passed Title IX. As evidenced by this race, no men (cis or trans) sacrifice anything to support trans rights here, they face less competition for opportunities to compete, scholarships etc. (yes I know that’s not an issue in the Ivy League but will be elsewhere). There is less completion in the menevents.

I agree with a lot of this.

Whatever you want to say about the topic, a trans woman who went through puberty as a male has an advantage over women who were never male. That’s why teams are separated women-men in the first place.

Thomas knows they have an advantage and is enjoying it and the coach likes to win so is also okay with it. The coach may get a promotion one day. Who knows? Meanwhile, Thomas taking a spot means a woman born a woman did not get a spot.

I do worry about field sports like soccer. Will 200 lb trans women be crashing into 140 women on the field one day? Doesn’t sound good or safe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Enough.

Out Magazine did the research. In the 10 years since the NCAA adopted its latest set of rules regarding trans athlete participation there have been a grand total of 27 trans athletes, MtF and FtM, who have participated in a and college sport. That’s NCAA, NAIA, and Junior college. So - far more than 1,000,000 college athletes over that same 10 year period. And, so far, the only trans athlete to win any championship- either individually or as a team - is CeCe Telfer who ran a 57.53 400m hurdles in 2019. That time would not have put her in the D1 finals for that event.

So?
You don't think the number of trans athletes will increase in the next couple of years?
I do. Considerably.
At the expense of biological women.

And your proof?

Wait a year. You'll see.

So - no proof at all. Considered there are not 40 MtF or FtM trans athletes participating in high school today - out of about 6,000,000 high school athletes unless you have some proof - take your anti -trans, and anti-lgbt rhetoric elsewhere.

PP—Your logic is lacking. You can’t predict the future of this topic based on what you see now. The high school numbers don’t matter when someone doesn’t become trans until college. Your post makes no sense.

Take your anti-woman thinking elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Enough.

Out Magazine did the research. In the 10 years since the NCAA adopted its latest set of rules regarding trans athlete participation there have been a grand total of 27 trans athletes, MtF and FtM, who have participated in a and college sport. That’s NCAA, NAIA, and Junior college. So - far more than 1,000,000 college athletes over that same 10 year period. And, so far, the only trans athlete to win any championship- either individually or as a team - is CeCe Telfer who ran a 57.53 400m hurdles in 2019. That time would not have put her in the D1 finals for that event.

So?
You don't think the number of trans athletes will increase in the next couple of years?
I do. Considerably.
At the expense of biological women.

And your proof?

Wait a year. You'll see.

So - no proof at all. Considered there are not 40 MtF or FtM trans athletes participating in high school today - out of about 6,000,000 high school athletes unless you have some proof - take your anti -trans, and anti-lgbt rhetoric elsewhere.

Let’s not pretend that everyone wanting to protect athletic opportunities for cis women is anti-trans or that the LGB community is in lock step with trans community on this (see Martina Navratilova’s support for Women’s Sports Policy Working Group). Pretending the cost of trans female inclusion in female sports to cis female athletes is nonexistent isn't honest. Is you position that disadvantaging a few cis females is fine? Then how many? Is there a limit?

[Anonymous]

The question OP asked has yet to be answered. He should on the male swim team, which I am in full support of. But why did they let him stay on the females? Plus, its likeky causing great distress for him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Enough.

Out Magazine did the research. In the 10 years since the NCAA adopted its latest set of rules regarding trans athlete participation there have been a grand total of 27 trans athletes, MtF and FtM, who have participated in a and college sport. That’s NCAA, NAIA, and Junior college. So - far more than 1,000,000 college athletes over that same 10 year period. And, so far, the only trans athlete to win any championship- either individually or as a team - is CeCe Telfer who ran a 57.53 400m hurdles in 2019. That time would not have put her in the D1 finals for that event.

So?
You don't think the number of trans athletes will increase in the next couple of years?
I do. Considerably.
At the expense of biological women.

And your proof?

Wait a year. You'll see.

So - no proof at all. Considered there are not 40 MtF or FtM trans athletes participating in high school today - out of about 6,000,000 high school athletes unless you have some proof - take your anti -trans, and anti-lgbt rhetoric elsewhere.

PP—Your logic is lacking. You can’t predict the future of this topic based on what you see now. The high school numbers don’t matter when someone doesn’t become trans until college. Your post makes no sense.

Take your anti-woman thinking elsewhere.

Your last anti-trans thread got nuked also. Go away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The question OP asked has yet to be answered. He should on the male swim team, which I am in full support of. But why did they let him stay on the females? Plus, its likeky causing great distress for him.

Him staying on the women's team is the unfair outcome of being a trans athlete. To be clear, I don't think there is an answer that's fair to everyone, but the way this is playing out is particularly unfair to biological women. Henig did not join the men's team because he couldn't compete and wouldn't win in the men's competitions; we don't even know if he would have made the team. Trans men have to make that choice of whether or not to fully transition OR stay competitive in the sport they've played since childhood and invested a lot of time and money in. Henig made his choice. Trans women, on the other hand, don't have to make any sort of choice like that. It's a win-win, because Thomas gets to transition AND dominant the sport.

My concern with trans athletes is that it's only going one way. We aren't seeing any trans men push to join the men's team because it's a biological impossibility to be competitive, even if they have taken a few years of testosterone. Trans men aren't joining the track team, as trans women are. They aren't joining the swim team. They aren't joining the basketball team. So trans men are out of luck and by transitioning are accepting they are giving up the ability to play competitive sports. Trans women aren't giving up anything.

The argument that it's unfair for all trans athletes to have to give up their sport if they transition is a false false dilemma, because it only goes one way and that's to the advantage of the biological male.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The question OP asked has yet to be answered. He should on the male swim team, which I am in full support of. But why did they let him stay on the females? Plus, its likeky causing great distress for him.

Him staying on the women's team is the unfair outcome of being a trans athlete. To be clear, I don't think there is an answer that's fair to everyone, but the way this is playing out is particularly unfair to biological women. Henig did not join the men's team because he couldn't compete and wouldn't win in the men's competitions; we don't even know if he would have made the team. Trans men have to make that choice of whether or not to fully transition OR stay competitive in the sport they've played since childhood and invested a lot of time and money in. Henig made his choice. Trans women, on the other hand, don't have to make any sort of choice like that. It's a win-win, because Thomas gets to transition AND dominant the sport.

My concern with trans athletes is that it's only going one way. We aren't seeing any trans men push to join the men's team because it's a biological impossibility to be competitive, even if they have taken a few years of testosterone. Trans men aren't joining the track team, as trans women are. They aren't joining the swim team. They aren't joining the basketball team. So trans men are out of luck and by transitioning are accepting they are giving up the ability to play competitive sports. Trans women aren't giving up anything.

The argument that it's unfair for all trans athletes to have to give up their sport if they transition is a false false dilemma, because it only goes one way and that's to the advantage of the biological male.

In your experience, do all cis males make every team they try out for?