I’m confused! Trans swimmers Lia Thomas and Iszac Henig went head-to-head in the pool

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm the PP and I also just don't care that much. I mean, I care about trans folks getting gender affirming healthcare, and employment protections, and general societal acceptance. I do not see a path in the current climate to opposing JUST collegiate sports without opposing other things that I think are basic human rights.

For someone like myself, who thinks the sports thing is a little unfair but does not otherwise feel like more rights for trans women = fewer rights for me, it makes sense to just be quiet about the sports thing.

I don't feel erased by the words "pregnant people" or "chest feeding." I don't feel sad because there might be a trans woman in my book club or whatever. My rights are not being eroded as a cis woman, and I'm extremely glad that my kids are growing up in a world where gender is far less prescriptive than it was.

So I'll just hush it about the sports thing, because I'd rather one thing be a little unfair than roll back basic rights for a big community.

Black woman here. Your position is the height of selfishness. YOU didn’t need sports to get where you’re going, so who cares if women are cheated out of everything sports performance can bring, right?

Have you considered that, for the poorest women, sports are a way forward?

I went to college on a track and field scholarship. Without that money, I wouldn’t have gone to college at all. I had no money and, as a green-card holder at the time, I wasn’t eligible for federal student loans. Moreover, as a black woman, there were very few mechanisms to catch me if I fell through the cracks. Placing 3rd at states and then placing 7th at nationals changed my life. Suddenly, I was being encouraged and pushed to go to college by programs seeking to recruit me. Suddenly, there was a way to pay for it all. Suddenly, it wasn’t selfish to tell my parents I wanted to go to college. Before that, saying I wanted to go to college was basically saying that I want to bankrupt the family for my own personal ambitions.

In sports competition, all that matters is how you place at the big meets. If somebody edges you out and you don’t medal, that could be life changing. Girls outside the top 10 didn’t get the looks that I got, didn’t get the push that I got, didn’t get recruited the same way that I was. There’s also the fact that my parents would’ve never supported my track and field ambitions if I hadn’t been them in placing well. They would have pulled me out to babysit or get a job after school.

You throw in one or two trans women to knock women off the podium and push everyone a couple spots down and the women pushed out of the top 10 are out of contention for good. The women who would’ve medalled and who didn’t are robbed of opportunities. The ripple effects are massive. Now, imagine more than just one or two trans women. It’s already happening in women’s basketball.

For a man, who has had the advantage of male privilege all of his life, to be allowed to rob a woman of the opportunities that she has earned is unconscionable. You white women (and it’s almost always white women shrugging at the way women are being displaced by the trans movement) who support this think only of yourselves and it is disgusting. There is nothing progressive about your position. You don’t care because you’re comfortable and because you can ride middle class white privilege. To hell with the most vulnerable women like me, right?

This!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a transgender person needs to choose between transitioning to their true gender and competing in high level athletics. Sorry, life isn’t fair. A lot of people don’t get to compete in college athletics. No one is stopping them from doing their sport recreationally.

Exactly!!

Or the same could be said about women who cannot compete against other women who are transgender. A lot of people don’t get to compete in college athletics and no one is stopping them from doing their sport recreationally after all. Sorry life isn’t fair.

Biological women who can’t keep pace with biological men are not remotely equivalent to biological women who can’t keep pace with other biological women. Declaring your authentic self to be a woman does not make you the equivalent of a biological woman. It is insane to see the absolutely misogyny that trans women blithely bring to the table.

And the NCAA and the member schools see things differently from you and they make the rules. There’s no misogyny because these are all women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a transgender person needs to choose between transitioning to their true gender and competing in high level athletics. Sorry, life isn’t fair. A lot of people don’t get to compete in college athletics. No one is stopping them from doing their sport recreationally.

Exactly!!

Or the same could be said about women who cannot compete against other women who are transgender. A lot of people don’t get to compete in college athletics and no one is stopping them from doing their sport recreationally after all. Sorry life isn’t fair.

Biological women who can’t keep pace with biological men are not remotely equivalent to biological women who can’t keep pace with other biological women. Declaring your authentic self to be a woman does not make you the equivalent of a biological woman. It is insane to see the absolutely misogyny that trans women blithely bring to the table.

And the NCAA and the member schools see things differently from you and they make the rules. There’s no misogyny because these are all women.

Well, since you’re so supportive of rules and all, you must be thrilled that USA swimming has change the rules and the NCAA will soon follow suit. Soon, trans women will not be able to participate in any elite swimming events without 3 years of hormones AND a panel’s approval. Good luck scaling those hurdles. Hooray for rules.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a transgender person needs to choose between transitioning to their true gender and competing in high level athletics. Sorry, life isn’t fair. A lot of people don’t get to compete in college athletics. No one is stopping them from doing their sport recreationally.

Exactly!!

Or the same could be said about women who cannot compete against other women who are transgender. A lot of people don’t get to compete in college athletics and no one is stopping them from doing their sport recreationally after all. Sorry life isn’t fair.

Biological women who can’t keep pace with biological men are not remotely equivalent to biological women who can’t keep pace with other biological women. Declaring your authentic self to be a woman does not make you the equivalent of a biological woman. It is insane to see the absolutely misogyny that trans women blithely bring to the table.

And the NCAA and the member schools see things differently from you and they make the rules. There’s no misogyny because these are all women.

Surely you’re joking. No misogyny to see here folks, because the people making the decisions are women!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a transgender person needs to choose between transitioning to their true gender and competing in high level athletics. Sorry, life isn’t fair. A lot of people don’t get to compete in college athletics. No one is stopping them from doing their sport recreationally.

Exactly!!

Or the same could be said about women who cannot compete against other women who are transgender. A lot of people don’t get to compete in college athletics and no one is stopping them from doing their sport recreationally after all. Sorry life isn’t fair.

Biological women who can’t keep pace with biological men are not remotely equivalent to biological women who can’t keep pace with other biological women. Declaring your authentic self to be a woman does not make you the equivalent of a biological woman. It is insane to see the absolutely misogyny that trans women blithely bring to the table.

And the NCAA and the member schools see things differently from you and they make the rules. There’s no misogyny because these are all women.

Surely you’re joking. No misogyny to see here folks, because the people making the decisions are women!

The NCAA and member schools’ leadership are virtually exclusively white males. The poster you’re responding to is a lying lunatic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You should speak up. I’m very moderate but am fully in support of lgbtq issues. I don’t care who uses my bathroom. But both trans men and trans women competing on women’s teams and beating out women is wrong. And it’s also dominating women’s health issues. I’m very upset that women are always being told to sit down and shut up.

I'm the PP and I also just don't care that much. I mean, I care about trans folks getting gender affirming healthcare, and employment protections, and general societal acceptance. I do not see a path in the current climate to opposing JUST collegiate sports without opposing other things that I think are basic human rights.

For someone like myself, who thinks the sports thing is a little unfair but does not otherwise feel like more rights for trans women = fewer rights for me, it makes sense to just be quiet about the sports thing.

I don't feel erased by the words "pregnant people" or "chest feeding." I don't feel sad because there might be a trans woman in my book club or whatever. My rights are not being eroded as a cis woman, and I'm extremely glad that my kids are growing up in a world where gender is far less prescriptive than it was.

So I'll just hush it about the sports thing, because I'd rather one thing be a little unfair than roll back basic rights for a big community.

I actually agree with the PP you’re quoting. “Birthing person” and “chest feeding,” as well as defining women’s anatomy via the lens of someone who was born with a penis and testicles, is erasure of women. I won’t use the phrases; I’m sick of women having to cede ground on every issue, but especially on this issue when for millions of years, it has been women who have given birth and breast fed infants.

But overall I think the three of us agree: we respect trans rights and don’t want to be lumped in with the mouth breathers, but at the same time I don’t think it’s right for Lia to compete as a woman. She is taking away the opportunity for another born woman to compete, and that’s an appalling selfishness I cannot condone. Having accomplished male puberty, she has the musculature, skeletal system and veinous system of a man.

This x a million

Exactly, and I think the majority of people share this view but perhaps express it less eloquently. Believing that Lia Thomas shouldn’t be competing against bio women does not make you transphobic or hateful.

+1

[Anonymous]

I though swimmers were either sprinters or distance specialists but Lia is swimming both sprints and distance events?

[Anonymous]

Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Black PP here. Thank you for considering my points. I am disgusted by how conservative bad actors have taken over the collision of trans rights and women’s rights, but there’s a real issue there. This isn’t just a petty culture war. Letting Republicans turn you away from the suffering of real people most of whom vote Democrat is not the answer.

Yes, Black PP. You provided a wonderful insight into this issue. Your voice should be heard just as much as the privileged white ladies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Black PP here. Thank you for considering my points. I am disgusted by how conservative bad actors have taken over the collision of trans rights and women’s rights, but there’s a real issue there. This isn’t just a petty culture war. Letting Republicans turn you away from the suffering of real people most of whom vote Democrat is not the answer.

Yes, Black PP. You provided a wonderful insight into this issue. Your voice should be heard just as much as the privileged white ladies.

Lol. Nice attempt at being divisive.

Intelligent women will agree and support one another on this issue regardless of color.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

Your posts are some of the best I’ve ever read. Please, raise your voice even louder. I HEAR YOU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

Your posts are some of the best I’ve ever read. Please, raise your voice even louder. I HEAR YOU.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

You are my inspiration

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear black woman athlete,
I’m so grateful that you have joined this thread. You have so eloquently explained it all.
I’ve said on multiple threads that 1 or 2 trans women can mean only 1 or no biological women on the podium. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Your story beautifully explains what is at stake.

Black PP here. Thank you. It would be wrong and evil to scale back all the rights that transgender people fought for. Trans people deserve to be safe, loved, housed, employed, to be able to socialize without scorn, to be able to access medical care, to be able to live. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing trans activists and lobbyists push for is correct and right and that anyone who disagrees should be flogged and rendered homeless to starve on the streets. It is equally wrong and evil not to acknowledge the tension between trans rights and women’s rights. Some people describe it as a tension between gender and sex—and I think that’s right. There are situations in which bodies and the reality of physical differences matter.

I need the progressive movement to acknowledge that when you bump somebody off the podium or reallocate funds from one to another, it is the people at the margins who feel the impact. We matter. If you believe it is OK to further push down and impoverish black and brown women, to further expose us to violence, in order to affirm trans women’s gender by letting them into women’s spaces without question, then say that with your whole mouth and stand by it. Tell us you believe that we are disposable in comparison to trans women and that it’s acceptable to make collateral damage of our lives. But don’t pretend your policies are consequence free and that there is no collateral damage in the form of real human beings. Don’t gaslight us.

Your posts are some of the best I’ve ever read. Please, raise your voice even louder. I HEAR YOU.

+1

Totally agree. I wish I could clap for every line you’ve written. You are an amazing writer who is telling some deep truths.