NOVA Stats for spring '17 UVA, W & M & Tech acceptances (or not)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is JMU really considered bad? I thought it was a good school?

Where on earth did you hear JMU is "considered bad"? It's a really good school. I'd be thrilled if my kids got into JMU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's see some real data on IB costs - there's a lot of assertion here but only one poster brought any real data. The IB coordinator also teaches at our school.

The argument that only 10% of students who take IB classes get a diploma misses the point - 0% of students who take AP classes get an AP diploma. Students can take individual IB courses (and get a normal FCPS diploma the same as the AP students). Relatively few take on the additional requirements to qualify for the IB diploma.

My understanding is that the IB curriculum was instituted to draw students into lower SES schools and impart a "halo effect" that might be beneficial to the school as a whole. I don't know how that worked out although our school GCMarshall has been very successful with the IB program and has maybe 50 students who pupil place in for the program each year. We pupil placed out of Madison (an AP school) and into the IB program at GCM. It was a very challenging program but we were generally happy with the experience. I don't know how much of GCM's recent success has to do with development in the area and other demographic factors and with the IB program. They also have a top notch principal.

I would submit you are the one missing the point. While no students may receive an "AP diploma," substantially more than 20% of the students at AP schools take significant numbers of AP courses, are viewed favorably by college admissions officers, and the rest are not stigmatized because they don't fall in the "IB diploma" category. If you question that analysis, you really owe the rest of us an explanation as to why the six top-ranked high schools in FCPS are all AP, and parents at those schools show no interest in converting them to IB. In fact, when FCPS tried to convert Woodson to IB, the parents forced the School Board to reverse the decision.

As for Marshall, the improvement in its reputation is due to the growth of Tysons and demand for nearby housing. Even so, the home prices go up substantially as soon as you cross from the Marshall district to the Madison or McLean HS districts. If IB really were so attractive, one might expect the opposite in a county where parents care as deeply about their children's education as Fairfax.

Again, FCPS would be better off with one or two IB programs, not eight under-subscribed programs whose main appeal at present is the fact that they give parents in certain lower-performing schools an option to pupil place to a higher performing AP school (at least until the AP school is closed to transfers).

What makes you think that parents know anything about AP vs IB? Most have no idea. They reject IB because they don't know what it is and they remember taking AP classes themselves. The fact that some group of parents is opposed to IB is not sufficient evidence to decide that IB must be bad. So I question *your * analysis, if that's what your conclusion is based on.

Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that students who take IB classes but don't pursue the diploma are not viewed favorably by college admissions officers and are "stigmatized" in some way?

I taught in both AP and IB schools in the county. First, in any AP school you are not seeing more than 20 percent of the students pushing for a full range of AP courses across the subjects. What you see instead is a student will pursue AP history or English and foreign language while other students might pursue more AP science and math courses. A smaller contingent that is roughly equal to what we see in the IB diploma program will pursue AP courses across all subjects.

The other thing about AP courses is that you run into an arms race. Students are basically loading up because there's no definition of "most rigorous" coursework. In the IB program it's basically set in stone that the diploma is the most rigorous.

From my view, IB is an excellent program if your child attends a school with a large cohort that is going and completing the diploma (basically South Lakes, Robinson and Marshall). I wouldn't consider it otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that perspective. Is that the same information/perspective/advice that a prospective student & parent would gain from talking with an IB administrator? Or is there another source of counseling for prospective students who wish to be informed about choosing between IB and AP? I sense that there is a dearth of information/guidance for those contemplating making this choice.

[Anonymous]

Not true and of course it is. Every program has a cost.

Big difference from one foreign language pulling resources from another foreign language and the difference in cost between IB and AP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Not true and of course it is. Every program has a cost.

Big difference from one foreign language pulling resources from another foreign language and the difference in cost between IB and AP.

Hardly.

[Anonymous]

First, in any AP school you are not seeing more than 20 percent of the students pushing for a full range of AP courses across the subjects

That may be true, but we certainly don't see 20% of students in IB schools getting the IB diploma--at least not in the vast majority of them.

[Anonymous]

Actual Statistics:

IB Diplomas 2012-2016: http://www.fcag.org/documents/IB+Diplomas+2016.pdf

AP Scholar awards from 2016: http://www.fcag.org/documents/AP+Scholars+2016.pdf

AP Scholar awards 2011-2013: http://www.fcag.org/documents/press-releases/table10apscholars2013.pdf

can't find AP scholar information for intervening years

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

First, in any AP school you are not seeing more than 20 percent of the students pushing for a full range of AP courses across the subjects

That may be true, but we certainly don't see 20% of students in IB schools getting the IB diploma--at least not in the vast majority of them.

I am going to repeat myself since you don't want to hear this. In the three schools where it's thriving, roughly 20 percent of the students complete the IB diploma.

Also, looking at the chart the other poster provided, all you can take away is that in AP schools, a large portion of the students complete a minimum of three AP courses with a score of 3 or better. That still doesn't contradict the point that AP's strength is that it's an a-la cart program and students can tailor their coursework to their strengths and that AP schools often have the issue that there's no defined "most rigorous," which creates this arms race where students are loading up on APs as early as 9th grade.

[Anonymous]

I am going to repeat myself since you don't want to hear this. In the three schools where it's thriving, roughly 20 percent of the students complete the IB diploma.

Also, looking at the chart the other poster provided, all you can take away is that in AP schools, a large portion of the students complete a minimum of three AP courses with a score of 3 or better. That still doesn't contradict the point that AP's strength is that it's an a-la cart program and students can tailor their coursework to their strengths and that AP schools often have the issue that there's no defined "most rigorous," which creates this arms race where students are loading up on APs as early as 9th grade.

Marshall and Robinson--and, in only one year, South Lakes are the only schools that come close.

So, let Marshall and Robinson be IB schools.

As for the stats on the AP schools, it appears to me that the percentage is much higher than 20 who receive recognition. I can only guess, however. The # given appears to be far higher than 20% of the graduating class, but I do think that DD received some kind of recognition after junior year, so it may encompass more than just graduating seniors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

First, in any AP school you are not seeing more than 20 percent of the students pushing for a full range of AP courses across the subjects

That may be true, but we certainly don't see 20% of students in IB schools getting the IB diploma--at least not in the vast majority of them.

I am going to repeat myself since you don't want to hear this. In the three schools where it's thriving, roughly 20 percent of the students complete the IB diploma.

Also, looking at the chart the other poster provided, all you can take away is that in AP schools, a large portion of the students complete a minimum of three AP courses with a score of 3 or better. That still doesn't contradict the point that AP's strength is that it's an a-la cart program and students can tailor their coursework to their strengths and that AP schools often have the issue that there's no defined "most rigorous," which creates this arms race where students are loading up on APs as early as 9th grade.

.

20% does not seem to be indicative of a "thriving" IB diploma program, especially in comparison to the numerous AP schools where higher numbers of students are succeeding in AP courses and receiving recognition.

As for whether the less prescriptive nature of AP creates an "arm's race" among students, one could just as easily describe IB as a "one-size-fits-all" program with multiple hoops for IB students to jump through to placate the educational bureaucrats at the IBO in Geneva.

Finally, I think you mean "a la carte," not "a-la-cart."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is JMU really considered bad? I thought it was a good school?

Where on earth did you hear JMU is "considered bad"? It's a really good school. I'd be thrilled if my kids got into JMU.

State schools are not acceptable to the DC UMC/elite. You must go to HYPS or a SLAC and pay through the nose for it for your kid be seen as sufficiently successful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

First, in any AP school you are not seeing more than 20 percent of the students pushing for a full range of AP courses across the subjects

That may be true, but we certainly don't see 20% of students in IB schools getting the IB diploma--at least not in the vast majority of them.

I am going to repeat myself since you don't want to hear this. In the three schools where it's thriving, roughly 20 percent of the students complete the IB diploma.

Also, looking at the chart the other poster provided, all you can take away is that in AP schools, a large portion of the students complete a minimum of three AP courses with a score of 3 or better. That still doesn't contradict the point that AP's strength is that it's an a-la cart program and students can tailor their coursework to their strengths and that AP schools often have the issue that there's no defined "most rigorous," which creates this arms race where students are loading up on APs as early as 9th grade.

.

20% does not seem to be indicative of a "thriving" IB diploma program, especially in comparison to the numerous AP schools where higher numbers of students are succeeding in AP courses and receiving recognition.

As for whether the less prescriptive nature of AP creates an "arm's race" among students, one could just as easily describe IB as a "one-size-fits-all" program with multiple hoops for IB students to jump through to placate the educational bureaucrats at the IBO in Geneva.

Finally, I think you mean "a la carte," not "a-la-cart."

You are completely wrong. Beyond TJ, there is no school in the county where you will find more than 20 percent of students completing a full cohort of AP courses across the disciplines. It just doesn't happen.

What you will see -- and what you keep ignoring -- is that a large cohort of kids will choose courses that focus on their strengths. Then again, this happens in IB schools as well. Over 80 percent of students complete an IB course.

An IB diploma program where 20 percent of the students are successful is actually amazing because it's a rigorous program. It's not meant for a general education -- it's an advanced program of study like AP classes.

I am going to ignore the snark since you feel compelled to be rude, but I am going to reiterate, IB is a great program and at the schools where it's doing well, these students are getting an extraordinary opportunity to learn. I'm not saying one is better, but it's also not a dumpster fire at Marshall or Robinson.

And looking at other places, you can see its appeal. Falls Church City, WL in Arlington, the MCPS IB magnet schools. People are clamoring to get into these IB programs.

What you don't like is the strategic thing FCPS did when it put IB in high poverty schools. I get that. But it doesn't undermine the point that the IB program is a fantastic opportunity for some kids if they can get into a successful IB school like Marshall or Robinson or South Lakes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

First, in any AP school you are not seeing more than 20 percent of the students pushing for a full range of AP courses across the subjects

That may be true, but we certainly don't see 20% of students in IB schools getting the IB diploma--at least not in the vast majority of them.

I am going to repeat myself since you don't want to hear this. In the three schools where it's thriving, roughly 20 percent of the students complete the IB diploma.

Also, looking at the chart the other poster provided, all you can take away is that in AP schools, a large portion of the students complete a minimum of three AP courses with a score of 3 or better. That still doesn't contradict the point that AP's strength is that it's an a-la cart program and students can tailor their coursework to their strengths and that AP schools often have the issue that there's no defined "most rigorous," which creates this arms race where students are loading up on APs as early as 9th grade.

.

20% does not seem to be indicative of a "thriving" IB diploma program, especially in comparison to the numerous AP schools where higher numbers of students are succeeding in AP courses and receiving recognition.

As for whether the less prescriptive nature of AP creates an "arm's race" among students, one could just as easily describe IB as a "one-size-fits-all" program with multiple hoops for IB students to jump through to placate the educational bureaucrats at the IBO in Geneva.

Finally, I think you mean "a la carte," not "a-la-cart."

You are completely wrong. Beyond TJ, there is no school in the county where you will find more than 20 percent of students completing a full cohort of AP courses across the disciplines. It just doesn't happen.

What you will see -- and what you keep ignoring -- is that a large cohort of kids will choose courses that focus on their strengths. Then again, this happens in IB schools as well. Over 80 percent of students complete an IB course.

An IB diploma program where 20 percent of the students are successful is actually amazing because it's a rigorous program. It's not meant for a general education -- it's an advanced program of study like AP classes.

I am going to ignore the snark since you feel compelled to be rude, but I am going to reiterate, IB is a great program and at the schools where it's doing well, these students are getting an extraordinary opportunity to learn. I'm not saying one is better, but it's also not a dumpster fire at Marshall or Robinson.

And looking at other places, you can see its appeal. Falls Church City, WL in Arlington, the MCPS IB magnet schools. People are clamoring to get into these IB programs.

What you don't like is the strategic thing FCPS did when it put IB in high poverty schools. I get that. But it doesn't undermine the point that the IB program is a fantastic opportunity for some kids if they can get into a successful IB school like Marshall or Robinson or South Lakes.

Pp, I admire both your knowledge and your tact. Very few are so patient and take the time to explain things to our resident anti- IB troll who derails every thread on this board. You were able to articulate some very valid points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's see some real data on IB costs - there's a lot of assertion here but only one poster brought any real data. The IB coordinator also teaches at our school.

The argument that only 10% of students who take IB classes get a diploma misses the point - 0% of students who take AP classes get an AP diploma. Students can take individual IB courses (and get a normal FCPS diploma the same as the AP students). Relatively few take on the additional requirements to qualify for the IB diploma.

My understanding is that the IB curriculum was instituted to draw students into lower SES schools and impart a "halo effect" that might be beneficial to the school as a whole. I don't know how that worked out although our school GCMarshall has been very successful with the IB program and has maybe 50 students who pupil place in for the program each year. We pupil placed out of Madison (an AP school) and into the IB program at GCM. It was a very challenging program but we were generally happy with the experience. I don't know how much of GCM's recent success has to do with development in the area and other demographic factors and with the IB program. They also have a top notch principal.

I would submit you are the one missing the point. While no students may receive an "AP diploma," substantially more than 20% of the students at AP schools take significant numbers of AP courses, are viewed favorably by college admissions officers, and the rest are not stigmatized because they don't fall in the "IB diploma" category. If you question that analysis, you really owe the rest of us an explanation as to why the six top-ranked high schools in FCPS are all AP, and parents at those schools show no interest in converting them to IB. In fact, when FCPS tried to convert Woodson to IB, the parents forced the School Board to reverse the decision.

As for Marshall, the improvement in its reputation is due to the growth of Tysons and demand for nearby housing. Even so, the home prices go up substantially as soon as you cross from the Marshall district to the Madison or McLean HS districts. If IB really were so attractive, one might expect the opposite in a county where parents care as deeply about their children's education as Fairfax.

Again, FCPS would be better off with one or two IB programs, not eight under-subscribed programs whose main appeal at present is the fact that they give parents in certain lower-performing schools an option to pupil place to a higher performing AP school (at least until the AP school is closed to transfers).

What makes you think that parents know anything about AP vs IB? Most have no idea. They reject IB because they don't know what it is and they remember taking AP classes themselves. The fact that some group of parents is opposed to IB is not sufficient evidence to decide that IB must be bad. So I question *your * analysis, if that's what your conclusion is based on.

Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that students who take IB classes but don't pursue the diploma are not viewed favorably by college admissions officers and are "stigmatized" in some way?

I taught in both AP and IB schools in the county. First, in any AP school you are not seeing more than 20 percent of the students pushing for a full range of AP courses across the subjects. What you see instead is a student will pursue AP history or English and foreign language while other students might pursue more AP science and math courses. A smaller contingent that is roughly equal to what we see in the IB diploma program will pursue AP courses across all subjects.

The other thing about AP courses is that you run into an arms race. Students are basically loading up because there's no definition of "most rigorous" coursework. In the IB program it's basically set in stone that the diploma is the most rigorous.

From my view, IB is an excellent program if your child attends a school with a large cohort that is going and completing the diploma (basically South Lakes, Robinson and Marshall). I wouldn't consider it otherwise.

Thanks for your helpful input. (And I mean that sincerely.) However, it does not negate the previous point that the "fact" that parents at high SES schools aren't clamoring for IB means it's not as good as AP.

Do the FFX IB schools allow students to take IB classes without pursing the diploma? (This is the case at W-L in APS.) If that's the case, then it seems like the kids who might take selected AP classes would take selected IB classes instead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

First, in any AP school you are not seeing more than 20 percent of the students pushing for a full range of AP courses across the subjects

That may be true, but we certainly don't see 20% of students in IB schools getting the IB diploma--at least not in the vast majority of them.

I am going to repeat myself since you don't want to hear this. In the three schools where it's thriving, roughly 20 percent of the students complete the IB diploma.

Also, looking at the chart the other poster provided, all you can take away is that in AP schools, a large portion of the students complete a minimum of three AP courses with a score of 3 or better. That still doesn't contradict the point that AP's strength is that it's an a-la cart program and students can tailor their coursework to their strengths and that AP schools often have the issue that there's no defined "most rigorous," which creates this arms race where students are loading up on APs as early as 9th grade.

.

20% does not seem to be indicative of a "thriving" IB diploma program, especially in comparison to the numerous AP schools where higher numbers of students are succeeding in AP courses and receiving recognition.

As for whether the less prescriptive nature of AP creates an "arm's race" among students, one could just as easily describe IB as a "one-size-fits-all" program with multiple hoops for IB students to jump through to placate the educational bureaucrats at the IBO in Geneva.

Finally, I think you mean "a la carte," not "a-la-cart."

But you only have to take 3 AP classes to get "recognition" as an AP scholar. Of course there are more AP scholars than there are IB diploma recipients.