What is the endgame for current attack on elite unis + international students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, the point of most public services is to serve the actual public in question. Which in the case of American universities is presumably American students. It does become outrageous and concerning when universities start primarily catering to foreigners over the native populace, and college/university transforms from a genuine effort to educate the population and turns into a for-profit "get your citizenship here" feeder program

Absolutely. And why did this happen:

The total number of international students in American universities for the specified years, based on available data, is as follows:
• 1995: 452,635
• 2000: 514,723
• 2005: 564,766
• 2010: 723,277
• 2015: 1,043,839
• 2020: 914,095
• 2023: 1,057,188

That's bananas

Is there data that shows this info as a percentage of college student population? College population has also grown over this period, and there is a population burst (which I think is about to end after high school class of 2026 or maybe 2027). So some of a growth in raw numbers may be attributable to other factors.

Curious why you’re going out of your way to make so many excuses rather than just admit yes this may be problematic.

DP
I think it is bananas that we have so many foreigners here. However as a data analyst, I'd have to see these numbers normalized to the university population for them to be meaningful.

5% of the total college student pop is foreign. That is not a bananas number, PP. All countries have international students, and the US is certainly not an outlier in this regard.

Universities are here to educate humans, wherever they come from. Obviously they will serve more locals than people from far-flung locales, and that's OK. BTW, all countries subsidize their universities. So American students who are educated abroad benefit from government support in that country!

Citation from a reputable source? Plus, we are talking about universities, not 4 year colleges, technical schools, community colleges, etc.

I disagree with the bolded. My tax dollars in the university system should go ENTIRELY to Americans and I will advocate for that and vote my conscience every time.

Best hope you or a loved one don't get cancer or other disease and the best treatment was developed in the lab of a foreign born principal investigator and mixed-birth researchers. Idiot. DARWIN applauds you. Stay proud as you let them die.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7489249/

Your link perfectly illustrates what I was saying. Immigrants come here and take American students spots in American tax supported universities. Then they go on to get plumb jobs instead of Americans. Then they make the breakthroughs that Americans have traditionally made and will continue to make given more opportunities for Americans. Perfect illustration of what people are talking about.

Actually I believe that happens because of weak math education K-12 in the US and people's voluntary choice of majors. We don't have a lot of native-born Americans going to grad school in certain fields so we have to import them. American-born grad students have the same job opportunities as foreign-born grad students.

https://www.the74million.org/article/the-future-is-stem-but-without-enough-students-the-u-s-will-be-left-behind/

The world has changed, my friend. We don't need great mathematicians, we have AI. We need thinkers, innovators, and entrepreneurs to pull it all together. The US has and has always had these in abundance.

AI's still pretty stupid, my friend. If you think it's going to work out great to be a math illiterate innovator in CS and Engineering, you're an enabler. Go back to strategy consulting.

I actually am a senior AI advisor at one of the largest companies in the world. We are offshoring all these jobs to India because they are cheaper to employ IN INDIA. You should read the jobs board here. Lots of folks complaining about this right now. And yes there are many thing AI cannot do - like be creative or entrepreneurial, hence my post.

Wow, so impressed by you. I work at one of the largest companies in the world also. We are looking at all sorts of ways to use AI and so far coming up with a lot of crappy half-assed "help you get started" work product.

There's a Goldman Sachs analyst who recently posted that AI at GS was 6 times more expensive than using people to do the same analytical task.

If you're busy outsourcing jobs to India that just indicates labor is cheaper in India. Shouldn't you be figuring out innovative ways to hire American graduates from American schools with all the savings from AI's speed and efficiency? Nah, you'd just rather contribute to the next wave of offshoring. Who's selling out America now?

By the way, AI does a pretty good job of making clip art and poems. So there's that...

Did you read your own drivel before you submitted? I don't work at GS so I have zero idea why that would happen other than they are used to paying a premium for everything. Our company has a technology department so AI is easy to adapt and implement - its cheap.

And I truly wish I could sell the idea of hiring (and keeping) more Americans to senior leaders. I've tried. Unfortunately, Americans are more expensive than any other country. We are a global company and the US has the least protections for their citizens, so the easiest way to cut costs is to lay off the Americans. We can pay 3 Indians for the price of 1 American.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, the point of most public services is to serve the actual public in question. Which in the case of American universities is presumably American students. It does become outrageous and concerning when universities start primarily catering to foreigners over the native populace, and college/university transforms from a genuine effort to educate the population and turns into a for-profit "get your citizenship here" feeder program

Absolutely. And why did this happen:

The total number of international students in American universities for the specified years, based on available data, is as follows:
• 1995: 452,635
• 2000: 514,723
• 2005: 564,766
• 2010: 723,277
• 2015: 1,043,839
• 2020: 914,095
• 2023: 1,057,188

That's bananas

Is there data that shows this info as a percentage of college student population? College population has also grown over this period, and there is a population burst (which I think is about to end after high school class of 2026 or maybe 2027). So some of a growth in raw numbers may be attributable to other factors.

Curious why you’re going out of your way to make so many excuses rather than just admit yes this may be problematic.

DP
I think it is bananas that we have so many foreigners here. However as a data analyst, I'd have to see these numbers normalized to the university population for them to be meaningful.

5% of the total college student pop is foreign. That is not a bananas number, PP. All countries have international students, and the US is certainly not an outlier in this regard.

Universities are here to educate humans, wherever they come from. Obviously they will serve more locals than people from far-flung locales, and that's OK. BTW, all countries subsidize their universities. So American students who are educated abroad benefit from government support in that country!

Citation from a reputable source? Plus, we are talking about universities, not 4 year colleges, technical schools, community colleges, etc.

I disagree with the bolded. My tax dollars in the university system should go ENTIRELY to Americans and I will advocate for that and vote my conscience every time.

Best hope you or a loved one don't get cancer or other disease and the best treatment was developed in the lab of a foreign born principal investigator and mixed-birth researchers. Idiot. DARWIN applauds you. Stay proud as you let them die.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7489249/

Your link perfectly illustrates what I was saying. Immigrants come here and take American students spots in American tax supported universities. Then they go on to get plumb jobs instead of Americans. Then they make the breakthroughs that Americans have traditionally made and will continue to make given more opportunities for Americans. Perfect illustration of what people are talking about.

Actually I believe that happens because of weak math education K-12 in the US and people's voluntary choice of majors. We don't have a lot of native-born Americans going to grad school in certain fields so we have to import them. American-born grad students have the same job opportunities as foreign-born grad students.

https://www.the74million.org/article/the-future-is-stem-but-without-enough-students-the-u-s-will-be-left-behind/

The world has changed, my friend. We don't need great mathematicians, we have AI. We need thinkers, innovators, and entrepreneurs to pull it all together. The US has and has always had these in abundance.

AI's still pretty stupid, my friend. If you think it's going to work out great to be a math illiterate innovator in CS and Engineering, you're an enabler. Go back to strategy consulting.

I actually am a senior AI advisor at one of the largest companies in the world. We are offshoring all these jobs to India because they are cheaper to employ IN INDIA. You should read the jobs board here. Lots of folks complaining about this right now. And yes there are many thing AI cannot do - like be creative or entrepreneurial, hence my post.

Wow, so impressed by you. I work at one of the largest companies in the world also. We are looking at all sorts of ways to use AI and so far coming up with a lot of crappy half-assed "help you get started" work product.

There's a Goldman Sachs analyst who recently posted that AI at GS was 6 times more expensive than using people to do the same analytical task.

If you're busy outsourcing jobs to India that just indicates labor is cheaper in India. Shouldn't you be figuring out innovative ways to hire American graduates from American schools with all the savings from AI's speed and efficiency? Nah, you'd just rather contribute to the next wave of offshoring. Who's selling out America now?

By the way, AI does a pretty good job of making clip art and poems. So there's that...

Did you read your own drivel before you submitted? I don't work at GS so I have zero idea why that would happen other than they are used to paying a premium for everything. Our company has a technology department so AI is easy to adapt and implement - its cheap.

And I truly wish I could sell the idea of hiring (and keeping) more Americans to senior leaders. I've tried. Unfortunately, Americans are more expensive than any other country. We are a global company and the US has the least protections for their citizens, so the easiest way to cut costs is to lay off the Americans. We can pay 3 Indians for the price of 1 American.

Ok then, so if Americans are too expensive then it doesn't matter how well-educated they are by American universities. We just need to pray for more Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg types to emerge ready to innovate after high school.

It doesn't sound like you have a concrete plan for connecting AI and the additional randomly innovative but expensive Americans that would be educated at US universities under your plan. Sounds like Indian offshoring's going to keep winning.

I challenge you with your great American-born mind to innovate us out of this dilemma. I doubt it will come from restricting foreign students at American universities. How do you even know how good you are if you can't compare your skills to the best in the world?

And don't kid yourself that the Chinese can't innovate. Stop worrying about me and go read the business news. They are cleaning up. And with a lot of locally produced tech...not "stolen".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, the point of most public services is to serve the actual public in question. Which in the case of American universities is presumably American students. It does become outrageous and concerning when universities start primarily catering to foreigners over the native populace, and college/university transforms from a genuine effort to educate the population and turns into a for-profit "get your citizenship here" feeder program

Absolutely. And why did this happen:

The total number of international students in American universities for the specified years, based on available data, is as follows:
• 1995: 452,635
• 2000: 514,723
• 2005: 564,766
• 2010: 723,277
• 2015: 1,043,839
• 2020: 914,095
• 2023: 1,057,188

That's bananas

Is there data that shows this info as a percentage of college student population? College population has also grown over this period, and there is a population burst (which I think is about to end after high school class of 2026 or maybe 2027). So some of a growth in raw numbers may be attributable to other factors.

Curious why you’re going out of your way to make so many excuses rather than just admit yes this may be problematic.

DP
I think it is bananas that we have so many foreigners here. However as a data analyst, I'd have to see these numbers normalized to the university population for them to be meaningful.

5% of the total college student pop is foreign. That is not a bananas number, PP. All countries have international students, and the US is certainly not an outlier in this regard.

Universities are here to educate humans, wherever they come from. Obviously they will serve more locals than people from far-flung locales, and that's OK. BTW, all countries subsidize their universities. So American students who are educated abroad benefit from government support in that country!

Citation from a reputable source? Plus, we are talking about universities, not 4 year colleges, technical schools, community colleges, etc.

I disagree with the bolded. My tax dollars in the university system should go ENTIRELY to Americans and I will advocate for that and vote my conscience every time.

Best hope you or a loved one don't get cancer or other disease and the best treatment was developed in the lab of a foreign born principal investigator and mixed-birth researchers. Idiot. DARWIN applauds you. Stay proud as you let them die.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7489249/

Your link perfectly illustrates what I was saying. Immigrants come here and take American students spots in American tax supported universities. Then they go on to get plumb jobs instead of Americans. Then they make the breakthroughs that Americans have traditionally made and will continue to make given more opportunities for Americans. Perfect illustration of what people are talking about.

Actually I believe that happens because of weak math education K-12 in the US and people's voluntary choice of majors. We don't have a lot of native-born Americans going to grad school in certain fields so we have to import them. American-born grad students have the same job opportunities as foreign-born grad students.

https://www.the74million.org/article/the-future-is-stem-but-without-enough-students-the-u-s-will-be-left-behind/

The world has changed, my friend. We don't need great mathematicians, we have AI. We need thinkers, innovators, and entrepreneurs to pull it all together. The US has and has always had these in abundance.

AI's still pretty stupid, my friend. If you think it's going to work out great to be a math illiterate innovator in CS and Engineering, you're an enabler. Go back to strategy consulting.

I actually am a senior AI advisor at one of the largest companies in the world. We are offshoring all these jobs to India because they are cheaper to employ IN INDIA. You should read the jobs board here. Lots of folks complaining about this right now. And yes there are many thing AI cannot do - like be creative or entrepreneurial, hence my post.

Wow, so impressed by you. I work at one of the largest companies in the world also. We are looking at all sorts of ways to use AI and so far coming up with a lot of crappy half-assed "help you get started" work product.

There's a Goldman Sachs analyst who recently posted that AI at GS was 6 times more expensive than using people to do the same analytical task.

If you're busy outsourcing jobs to India that just indicates labor is cheaper in India. Shouldn't you be figuring out innovative ways to hire American graduates from American schools with all the savings from AI's speed and efficiency? Nah, you'd just rather contribute to the next wave of offshoring. Who's selling out America now?

By the way, AI does a pretty good job of making clip art and poems. So there's that...

Did you read your own drivel before you submitted? I don't work at GS so I have zero idea why that would happen other than they are used to paying a premium for everything. Our company has a technology department so AI is easy to adapt and implement - its cheap.

And I truly wish I could sell the idea of hiring (and keeping) more Americans to senior leaders. I've tried. Unfortunately, Americans are more expensive than any other country. We are a global company and the US has the least protections for their citizens, so the easiest way to cut costs is to lay off the Americans. We can pay 3 Indians for the price of 1 American.

Ok then, so if Americans are too expensive then it doesn't matter how well-educated they are by American universities. We just need to pray for more Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg types to emerge ready to innovate after high school.

It doesn't sound like you have a concrete plan for connecting AI and the additional randomly innovative but expensive Americans that would be educated at US universities under your plan. Sounds like Indian offshoring's going to keep winning.

I challenge you with your great American-born mind to innovate us out of this dilemma. I doubt it will come from restricting foreign students at American universities. How do you even know how good you are if you can't compare your skills to the best in the world?

And don't kid yourself that the Chinese can't innovate. Stop worrying about me and go read the business news. They are cleaning up. And with a lot of locally produced tech...not "stolen".

Ok, let's use short sentences and simple logic.

American tax money should be for Americans.

Foreigners have opportunities in their countries. They can use their own tax money, not ours.

More foreigners here means fewer college spots for Americans.

More jobs moving to low cost centers means fewer jobs for Americans. More foreigners in US colleges mean fewer jobs for citizens, because many take jobs here post study.

Fewer jobs = worse economy

Is that so difficult to understand?

Seriously, if you don't understand that the political gap will never be bridged. Or, perhaps you are just dumb and can't get it. I'm going to assume you are smart enough to understand it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, the point of most public services is to serve the actual public in question. Which in the case of American universities is presumably American students. It does become outrageous and concerning when universities start primarily catering to foreigners over the native populace, and college/university transforms from a genuine effort to educate the population and turns into a for-profit "get your citizenship here" feeder program

Absolutely. And why did this happen:

The total number of international students in American universities for the specified years, based on available data, is as follows:
• 1995: 452,635
• 2000: 514,723
• 2005: 564,766
• 2010: 723,277
• 2015: 1,043,839
• 2020: 914,095
• 2023: 1,057,188

That's bananas

Is there data that shows this info as a percentage of college student population? College population has also grown over this period, and there is a population burst (which I think is about to end after high school class of 2026 or maybe 2027). So some of a growth in raw numbers may be attributable to other factors.

Curious why you’re going out of your way to make so many excuses rather than just admit yes this may be problematic.

DP
I think it is bananas that we have so many foreigners here. However as a data analyst, I'd have to see these numbers normalized to the university population for them to be meaningful.

5% of the total college student pop is foreign. That is not a bananas number, PP. All countries have international students, and the US is certainly not an outlier in this regard.

Universities are here to educate humans, wherever they come from. Obviously they will serve more locals than people from far-flung locales, and that's OK. BTW, all countries subsidize their universities. So American students who are educated abroad benefit from government support in that country!

Citation from a reputable source? Plus, we are talking about universities, not 4 year colleges, technical schools, community colleges, etc.

I disagree with the bolded. My tax dollars in the university system should go ENTIRELY to Americans and I will advocate for that and vote my conscience every time.

Best hope you or a loved one don't get cancer or other disease and the best treatment was developed in the lab of a foreign born principal investigator and mixed-birth researchers. Idiot. DARWIN applauds you. Stay proud as you let them die.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7489249/

Your link perfectly illustrates what I was saying. Immigrants come here and take American students spots in American tax supported universities. Then they go on to get plumb jobs instead of Americans. Then they make the breakthroughs that Americans have traditionally made and will continue to make given more opportunities for Americans. Perfect illustration of what people are talking about.

Actually I believe that happens because of weak math education K-12 in the US and people's voluntary choice of majors. We don't have a lot of native-born Americans going to grad school in certain fields so we have to import them. American-born grad students have the same job opportunities as foreign-born grad students.

https://www.the74million.org/article/the-future-is-stem-but-without-enough-students-the-u-s-will-be-left-behind/

The world has changed, my friend. We don't need great mathematicians, we have AI. We need thinkers, innovators, and entrepreneurs to pull it all together. The US has and has always had these in abundance.

AI's still pretty stupid, my friend. If you think it's going to work out great to be a math illiterate innovator in CS and Engineering, you're an enabler. Go back to strategy consulting.

I actually am a senior AI advisor at one of the largest companies in the world. We are offshoring all these jobs to India because they are cheaper to employ IN INDIA. You should read the jobs board here. Lots of folks complaining about this right now. And yes there are many thing AI cannot do - like be creative or entrepreneurial, hence my post.

Wow, so impressed by you. I work at one of the largest companies in the world also. We are looking at all sorts of ways to use AI and so far coming up with a lot of crappy half-assed "help you get started" work product.

There's a Goldman Sachs analyst who recently posted that AI at GS was 6 times more expensive than using people to do the same analytical task.

If you're busy outsourcing jobs to India that just indicates labor is cheaper in India. Shouldn't you be figuring out innovative ways to hire American graduates from American schools with all the savings from AI's speed and efficiency? Nah, you'd just rather contribute to the next wave of offshoring. Who's selling out America now?

By the way, AI does a pretty good job of making clip art and poems. So there's that...

Did you read your own drivel before you submitted? I don't work at GS so I have zero idea why that would happen other than they are used to paying a premium for everything. Our company has a technology department so AI is easy to adapt and implement - its cheap.

And I truly wish I could sell the idea of hiring (and keeping) more Americans to senior leaders. I've tried. Unfortunately, Americans are more expensive than any other country. We are a global company and the US has the least protections for their citizens, so the easiest way to cut costs is to lay off the Americans. We can pay 3 Indians for the price of 1 American.

Ok then, so if Americans are too expensive then it doesn't matter how well-educated they are by American universities. We just need to pray for more Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg types to emerge ready to innovate after high school.

It doesn't sound like you have a concrete plan for connecting AI and the additional randomly innovative but expensive Americans that would be educated at US universities under your plan. Sounds like Indian offshoring's going to keep winning.

I challenge you with your great American-born mind to innovate us out of this dilemma. I doubt it will come from restricting foreign students at American universities. How do you even know how good you are if you can't compare your skills to the best in the world?

And don't kid yourself that the Chinese can't innovate. Stop worrying about me and go read the business news. They are cleaning up. And with a lot of locally produced tech...not "stolen".

Ok, let's use short sentences and simple logic.

American tax money should be for Americans.

Foreigners have opportunities in their countries. They can use their own tax money, not ours.

More foreigners here means fewer college spots for Americans.

More jobs moving to low cost centers means fewer jobs for Americans. More foreigners in US colleges mean fewer jobs for citizens, because many take jobs here post study.

Fewer jobs = worse economy

Is that so difficult to understand?

Seriously, if you don't understand that the political gap will never be bridged. Or, perhaps you are just dumb and can't get it. I'm going to assume you are smart enough to understand it.

You have a simple logic, and simple mind too like Donald.

[Anonymous]

We should try to suck in the best and brightest brains from all over the world & keep them which is necessary for USA to lead innovation. With over 40% of our public companies revenues coming from overseas, it would be foolish to not invest in our international networks. The benefits of cultivating a global network far outweigh the costs. We will all be poorer for damaging this position. Not sure why we want to hand China global markets & goodwill; it is very shortsighted and there will be fewer jobs with such actions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, the point of most public services is to serve the actual public in question. Which in the case of American universities is presumably American students. It does become outrageous and concerning when universities start primarily catering to foreigners over the native populace, and college/university transforms from a genuine effort to educate the population and turns into a for-profit "get your citizenship here" feeder program

Absolutely. And why did this happen:

The total number of international students in American universities for the specified years, based on available data, is as follows:
• 1995: 452,635
• 2000: 514,723
• 2005: 564,766
• 2010: 723,277
• 2015: 1,043,839
• 2020: 914,095
• 2023: 1,057,188

That's bananas

Is there data that shows this info as a percentage of college student population? College population has also grown over this period, and there is a population burst (which I think is about to end after high school class of 2026 or maybe 2027). So some of a growth in raw numbers may be attributable to other factors.

Curious why you’re going out of your way to make so many excuses rather than just admit yes this may be problematic.

DP
I think it is bananas that we have so many foreigners here. However as a data analyst, I'd have to see these numbers normalized to the university population for them to be meaningful.

5% of the total college student pop is foreign. That is not a bananas number, PP. All countries have international students, and the US is certainly not an outlier in this regard.

Universities are here to educate humans, wherever they come from. Obviously they will serve more locals than people from far-flung locales, and that's OK. BTW, all countries subsidize their universities. So American students who are educated abroad benefit from government support in that country!

Citation from a reputable source? Plus, we are talking about universities, not 4 year colleges, technical schools, community colleges, etc.

I disagree with the bolded. My tax dollars in the university system should go ENTIRELY to Americans and I will advocate for that and vote my conscience every time.

Best hope you or a loved one don't get cancer or other disease and the best treatment was developed in the lab of a foreign born principal investigator and mixed-birth researchers. Idiot. DARWIN applauds you. Stay proud as you let them die.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7489249/

Your link perfectly illustrates what I was saying. Immigrants come here and take American students spots in American tax supported universities. Then they go on to get plumb jobs instead of Americans. Then they make the breakthroughs that Americans have traditionally made and will continue to make given more opportunities for Americans. Perfect illustration of what people are talking about.

Actually I believe that happens because of weak math education K-12 in the US and people's voluntary choice of majors. We don't have a lot of native-born Americans going to grad school in certain fields so we have to import them. American-born grad students have the same job opportunities as foreign-born grad students.

https://www.the74million.org/article/the-future-is-stem-but-without-enough-students-the-u-s-will-be-left-behind/

The world has changed, my friend. We don't need great mathematicians, we have AI. We need thinkers, innovators, and entrepreneurs to pull it all together. The US has and has always had these in abundance.

AI's still pretty stupid, my friend. If you think it's going to work out great to be a math illiterate innovator in CS and Engineering, you're an enabler. Go back to strategy consulting.

I actually am a senior AI advisor at one of the largest companies in the world. We are offshoring all these jobs to India because they are cheaper to employ IN INDIA. You should read the jobs board here. Lots of folks complaining about this right now. And yes there are many thing AI cannot do - like be creative or entrepreneurial, hence my post.

Wow, so impressed by you. I work at one of the largest companies in the world also. We are looking at all sorts of ways to use AI and so far coming up with a lot of crappy half-assed "help you get started" work product.

There's a Goldman Sachs analyst who recently posted that AI at GS was 6 times more expensive than using people to do the same analytical task.

If you're busy outsourcing jobs to India that just indicates labor is cheaper in India. Shouldn't you be figuring out innovative ways to hire American graduates from American schools with all the savings from AI's speed and efficiency? Nah, you'd just rather contribute to the next wave of offshoring. Who's selling out America now?

By the way, AI does a pretty good job of making clip art and poems. So there's that...

Did you read your own drivel before you submitted? I don't work at GS so I have zero idea why that would happen other than they are used to paying a premium for everything. Our company has a technology department so AI is easy to adapt and implement - its cheap.

And I truly wish I could sell the idea of hiring (and keeping) more Americans to senior leaders. I've tried. Unfortunately, Americans are more expensive than any other country. We are a global company and the US has the least protections for their citizens, so the easiest way to cut costs is to lay off the Americans. We can pay 3 Indians for the price of 1 American.

Ok then, so if Americans are too expensive then it doesn't matter how well-educated they are by American universities. We just need to pray for more Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg types to emerge ready to innovate after high school.

It doesn't sound like you have a concrete plan for connecting AI and the additional randomly innovative but expensive Americans that would be educated at US universities under your plan. Sounds like Indian offshoring's going to keep winning.

I challenge you with your great American-born mind to innovate us out of this dilemma. I doubt it will come from restricting foreign students at American universities. How do you even know how good you are if you can't compare your skills to the best in the world?

And don't kid yourself that the Chinese can't innovate. Stop worrying about me and go read the business news. They are cleaning up. And with a lot of locally produced tech...not "stolen".

Ok, let's use short sentences and simple logic.

American tax money should be for Americans.

Foreigners have opportunities in their countries. They can use their own tax money, not ours.

More foreigners here means fewer college spots for Americans.

More jobs moving to low cost centers means fewer jobs for Americans. More foreigners in US colleges mean fewer jobs for citizens, because many take jobs here post study.

Fewer jobs = worse economy

Is that so difficult to understand?

Seriously, if you don't understand that the political gap will never be bridged. Or, perhaps you are just dumb and can't get it. I'm going to assume you are smart enough to understand it.

Ooh simple sentences. How about this?

Unchallenged Americans won't achieve state of the art skills because they think their local-born competition is as good as gets.

Foreign students and professors will stay home and innovate there and then benefit from their home countries' industrial policy to beat us at our own game. They will have the tech and the cost structure both.

If anything, the US fails to deploy tax dollars effectively in the service of industrial policy. That's a failing that won't be corrected by banishing foreign students and cancelling research projects. Because our economy is so capitalist, we don't have effective governmental policies to grow and regrow industries. Not sure if that can be overcome but clearly it's not going to happen in the next few years.

There are many studies on the significant industry and company creation effects associated with US immigrants. Perhaps you just don't believe that research. I do. And you don't have proof that tax dollars are being wasted. You just don't approve of how they are being spent. Those are two different things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, the point of most public services is to serve the actual public in question. Which in the case of American universities is presumably American students. It does become outrageous and concerning when universities start primarily catering to foreigners over the native populace, and college/university transforms from a genuine effort to educate the population and turns into a for-profit "get your citizenship here" feeder program

Absolutely. And why did this happen:

The total number of international students in American universities for the specified years, based on available data, is as follows:
• 1995: 452,635
• 2000: 514,723
• 2005: 564,766
• 2010: 723,277
• 2015: 1,043,839
• 2020: 914,095
• 2023: 1,057,188

That's bananas

Is there data that shows this info as a percentage of college student population? College population has also grown over this period, and there is a population burst (which I think is about to end after high school class of 2026 or maybe 2027). So some of a growth in raw numbers may be attributable to other factors.

Curious why you’re going out of your way to make so many excuses rather than just admit yes this may be problematic.

DP
I think it is bananas that we have so many foreigners here. However as a data analyst, I'd have to see these numbers normalized to the university population for them to be meaningful.

5% of the total college student pop is foreign. That is not a bananas number, PP. All countries have international students, and the US is certainly not an outlier in this regard.

Universities are here to educate humans, wherever they come from. Obviously they will serve more locals than people from far-flung locales, and that's OK. BTW, all countries subsidize their universities. So American students who are educated abroad benefit from government support in that country!

Citation from a reputable source? Plus, we are talking about universities, not 4 year colleges, technical schools, community colleges, etc.

I disagree with the bolded. My tax dollars in the university system should go ENTIRELY to Americans and I will advocate for that and vote my conscience every time.

Best hope you or a loved one don't get cancer or other disease and the best treatment was developed in the lab of a foreign born principal investigator and mixed-birth researchers. Idiot. DARWIN applauds you. Stay proud as you let them die.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7489249/

Your link perfectly illustrates what I was saying. Immigrants come here and take American students spots in American tax supported universities. Then they go on to get plumb jobs instead of Americans. Then they make the breakthroughs that Americans have traditionally made and will continue to make given more opportunities for Americans. Perfect illustration of what people are talking about.

Actually I believe that happens because of weak math education K-12 in the US and people's voluntary choice of majors. We don't have a lot of native-born Americans going to grad school in certain fields so we have to import them. American-born grad students have the same job opportunities as foreign-born grad students.

https://www.the74million.org/article/the-future-is-stem-but-without-enough-students-the-u-s-will-be-left-behind/

The world has changed, my friend. We don't need great mathematicians, we have AI. We need thinkers, innovators, and entrepreneurs to pull it all together. The US has and has always had these in abundance.

AI's still pretty stupid, my friend. If you think it's going to work out great to be a math illiterate innovator in CS and Engineering, you're an enabler. Go back to strategy consulting.

I actually am a senior AI advisor at one of the largest companies in the world. We are offshoring all these jobs to India because they are cheaper to employ IN INDIA. You should read the jobs board here. Lots of folks complaining about this right now. And yes there are many thing AI cannot do - like be creative or entrepreneurial, hence my post.

Wow, so impressed by you. I work at one of the largest companies in the world also. We are looking at all sorts of ways to use AI and so far coming up with a lot of crappy half-assed "help you get started" work product.

There's a Goldman Sachs analyst who recently posted that AI at GS was 6 times more expensive than using people to do the same analytical task.

If you're busy outsourcing jobs to India that just indicates labor is cheaper in India. Shouldn't you be figuring out innovative ways to hire American graduates from American schools with all the savings from AI's speed and efficiency? Nah, you'd just rather contribute to the next wave of offshoring. Who's selling out America now?

By the way, AI does a pretty good job of making clip art and poems. So there's that...

Did you read your own drivel before you submitted? I don't work at GS so I have zero idea why that would happen other than they are used to paying a premium for everything. Our company has a technology department so AI is easy to adapt and implement - its cheap.

And I truly wish I could sell the idea of hiring (and keeping) more Americans to senior leaders. I've tried. Unfortunately, Americans are more expensive than any other country. We are a global company and the US has the least protections for their citizens, so the easiest way to cut costs is to lay off the Americans. We can pay 3 Indians for the price of 1 American.

Ok then, so if Americans are too expensive then it doesn't matter how well-educated they are by American universities. We just need to pray for more Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg types to emerge ready to innovate after high school.

It doesn't sound like you have a concrete plan for connecting AI and the additional randomly innovative but expensive Americans that would be educated at US universities under your plan. Sounds like Indian offshoring's going to keep winning.

I challenge you with your great American-born mind to innovate us out of this dilemma. I doubt it will come from restricting foreign students at American universities. How do you even know how good you are if you can't compare your skills to the best in the world?

And don't kid yourself that the Chinese can't innovate. Stop worrying about me and go read the business news. They are cleaning up. And with a lot of locally produced tech...not "stolen".

Ok, let's use short sentences and simple logic.

American tax money should be for Americans.

Foreigners have opportunities in their countries. They can use their own tax money, not ours.

More foreigners here means fewer college spots for Americans.

More jobs moving to low cost centers means fewer jobs for Americans. More foreigners in US colleges mean fewer jobs for citizens, because many take jobs here post study.

Fewer jobs = worse economy

Is that so difficult to understand?

Seriously, if you don't understand that the political gap will never be bridged. Or, perhaps you are just dumb and can't get it. I'm going to assume you are smart enough to understand it.

You have a simple logic, and simple mind too like Donald.

Yes, I mentioned I was a scientist.

Occam's Razor, also known as the principle of parsimony, is a problem-solving principle that suggests the simplest explanation for a phenomenon is usually the most accurate. It essentially encourages scientists and thinkers to favor simpler theories over more complex ones when faced with multiple explanations for the same observation.

I really don't like Trump and didn't vote for him. Never did I make the mistake in thinking he was dumb. He has the power now because of people like you. And let me remind you that indeed you are powerless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, the point of most public services is to serve the actual public in question. Which in the case of American universities is presumably American students. It does become outrageous and concerning when universities start primarily catering to foreigners over the native populace, and college/university transforms from a genuine effort to educate the population and turns into a for-profit "get your citizenship here" feeder program

Absolutely. And why did this happen:

The total number of international students in American universities for the specified years, based on available data, is as follows:
• 1995: 452,635
• 2000: 514,723
• 2005: 564,766
• 2010: 723,277
• 2015: 1,043,839
• 2020: 914,095
• 2023: 1,057,188

That's bananas

Is there data that shows this info as a percentage of college student population? College population has also grown over this period, and there is a population burst (which I think is about to end after high school class of 2026 or maybe 2027). So some of a growth in raw numbers may be attributable to other factors.

Curious why you’re going out of your way to make so many excuses rather than just admit yes this may be problematic.

DP
I think it is bananas that we have so many foreigners here. However as a data analyst, I'd have to see these numbers normalized to the university population for them to be meaningful.

5% of the total college student pop is foreign. That is not a bananas number, PP. All countries have international students, and the US is certainly not an outlier in this regard.

Universities are here to educate humans, wherever they come from. Obviously they will serve more locals than people from far-flung locales, and that's OK. BTW, all countries subsidize their universities. So American students who are educated abroad benefit from government support in that country!

Citation from a reputable source? Plus, we are talking about universities, not 4 year colleges, technical schools, community colleges, etc.

I disagree with the bolded. My tax dollars in the university system should go ENTIRELY to Americans and I will advocate for that and vote my conscience every time.

Best hope you or a loved one don't get cancer or other disease and the best treatment was developed in the lab of a foreign born principal investigator and mixed-birth researchers. Idiot. DARWIN applauds you. Stay proud as you let them die.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7489249/

Your link perfectly illustrates what I was saying. Immigrants come here and take American students spots in American tax supported universities. Then they go on to get plumb jobs instead of Americans. Then they make the breakthroughs that Americans have traditionally made and will continue to make given more opportunities for Americans. Perfect illustration of what people are talking about.

Actually I believe that happens because of weak math education K-12 in the US and people's voluntary choice of majors. We don't have a lot of native-born Americans going to grad school in certain fields so we have to import them. American-born grad students have the same job opportunities as foreign-born grad students.

https://www.the74million.org/article/the-future-is-stem-but-without-enough-students-the-u-s-will-be-left-behind/

The world has changed, my friend. We don't need great mathematicians, we have AI. We need thinkers, innovators, and entrepreneurs to pull it all together. The US has and has always had these in abundance.

AI's still pretty stupid, my friend. If you think it's going to work out great to be a math illiterate innovator in CS and Engineering, you're an enabler. Go back to strategy consulting.

I actually am a senior AI advisor at one of the largest companies in the world. We are offshoring all these jobs to India because they are cheaper to employ IN INDIA. You should read the jobs board here. Lots of folks complaining about this right now. And yes there are many thing AI cannot do - like be creative or entrepreneurial, hence my post.

Wow, so impressed by you. I work at one of the largest companies in the world also. We are looking at all sorts of ways to use AI and so far coming up with a lot of crappy half-assed "help you get started" work product.

There's a Goldman Sachs analyst who recently posted that AI at GS was 6 times more expensive than using people to do the same analytical task.

If you're busy outsourcing jobs to India that just indicates labor is cheaper in India. Shouldn't you be figuring out innovative ways to hire American graduates from American schools with all the savings from AI's speed and efficiency? Nah, you'd just rather contribute to the next wave of offshoring. Who's selling out America now?

By the way, AI does a pretty good job of making clip art and poems. So there's that...

Did you read your own drivel before you submitted? I don't work at GS so I have zero idea why that would happen other than they are used to paying a premium for everything. Our company has a technology department so AI is easy to adapt and implement - its cheap.

And I truly wish I could sell the idea of hiring (and keeping) more Americans to senior leaders. I've tried. Unfortunately, Americans are more expensive than any other country. We are a global company and the US has the least protections for their citizens, so the easiest way to cut costs is to lay off the Americans. We can pay 3 Indians for the price of 1 American.

Ok then, so if Americans are too expensive then it doesn't matter how well-educated they are by American universities. We just need to pray for more Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg types to emerge ready to innovate after high school.

It doesn't sound like you have a concrete plan for connecting AI and the additional randomly innovative but expensive Americans that would be educated at US universities under your plan. Sounds like Indian offshoring's going to keep winning.

I challenge you with your great American-born mind to innovate us out of this dilemma. I doubt it will come from restricting foreign students at American universities. How do you even know how good you are if you can't compare your skills to the best in the world?

And don't kid yourself that the Chinese can't innovate. Stop worrying about me and go read the business news. They are cleaning up. And with a lot of locally produced tech...not "stolen".

Ok, let's use short sentences and simple logic.

American tax money should be for Americans.

Foreigners have opportunities in their countries. They can use their own tax money, not ours.

More foreigners here means fewer college spots for Americans.

More jobs moving to low cost centers means fewer jobs for Americans. More foreigners in US colleges mean fewer jobs for citizens, because many take jobs here post study.

Fewer jobs = worse economy

Is that so difficult to understand?

Seriously, if you don't understand that the political gap will never be bridged. Or, perhaps you are just dumb and can't get it. I'm going to assume you are smart enough to understand it.

International students are not taking money from American universities...they are generally full pay and subsidize Americans who would not otherwise be able to afford it.

Get it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We should try to suck in the best and brightest brains from all over the world & keep them which is necessary for USA to lead innovation. With over 40% of our public companies revenues coming from overseas, it would be foolish to not invest in our international networks. The benefits of cultivating a global network far outweigh the costs. We will all be poorer for damaging this position. Not sure why we want to hand China global markets & goodwill; it is very shortsighted and there will be fewer jobs with such actions.

Trump is killing our globalnational companies because consumers are boycotting US products and services abroad. America First is really American Only, and the rest of the world - trade, commerce, education, diplomacy, is moving on without the US.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I mean, the point of most public services is to serve the actual public in question. Which in the case of American universities is presumably American students. It does become outrageous and concerning when universities start primarily catering to foreigners over the native populace, and college/university transforms from a genuine effort to educate the population and turns into a for-profit "get your citizenship here" feeder program[/quote]

Absolutely. And why did this happen:

The total number of international students in American universities for the specified years, based on available data, is as follows:
• 1995: 452,635
• 2000: 514,723
• 2005: 564,766
• 2010: 723,277
• 2015: 1,043,839
• 2020: 914,095
• 2023: 1,057,188[/quote]

That's bananas[/quote]

Is there data that shows this info as a percentage of college student population? College population has also grown over this period, and there is a population burst (which I think is about to end after high school class of 2026 or maybe 2027). So some of a growth in raw numbers may be attributable to other factors. [/quote]

Curious why you’re going out of your way to make so many excuses rather than just admit yes this may be problematic.[/quote]

DP
I think it is bananas that we have so many foreigners here. However as a data analyst, I'd have to see these numbers normalized to the university population for them to be meaningful.[/quote]

5% of the total college student pop is foreign. That is not a bananas number, PP. All countries have international students, and the US is certainly not an outlier in this regard.

[b]Universities are here to educate humans, [/b]wherever they come from. Obviously they will serve more locals than people from far-flung locales, and that's OK. BTW, all countries subsidize their universities. So American students who are educated abroad benefit from government support in that country!

[/quote]

Citation from a reputable source? Plus, we are talking about universities, not 4 year colleges, technical schools, community colleges, etc.

I disagree with the bolded. My tax dollars in the university system should go ENTIRELY to Americans and I will advocate for that and vote my conscience every time.[/quote]

Best hope you or a loved one don't get cancer or other disease and the best treatment was developed in the lab of a foreign born principal investigator and mixed-birth researchers. Idiot. DARWIN applauds you. Stay proud as you let them die.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7489249/

[/quote]

Your link perfectly illustrates what I was saying. Immigrants come here and take American students spots in American tax supported universities. Then they go on to get plumb jobs instead of Americans. Then they make the breakthroughs that Americans have traditionally made and will continue to make given more opportunities for Americans. Perfect illustration of what people are talking about.[/quote]

Actually I believe that happens because of weak math education K-12 in the US and people's voluntary choice of majors. We don't have a lot of native-born Americans going to grad school in certain fields so we have to import them. American-born grad students have the same job opportunities as foreign-born grad students.

https://www.the74million.org/article/the-future-is-stem-but-without-enough-students-the-u-s-will-be-left-behind/[/quote]

The world has changed, my friend. We don't need great mathematicians, we have AI. We need thinkers, innovators, and entrepreneurs to pull it all together. The US has and has always had these in abundance.[/quote]

AI's still pretty stupid, my friend. If you think it's going to work out great to be a math illiterate innovator in CS and Engineering, you're an enabler. Go back to strategy consulting.[/quote]

I actually am a senior AI advisor at one of the largest companies in the world. We are offshoring all these jobs to India because they are cheaper to employ IN INDIA. You should read the jobs board here. Lots of folks complaining about this right now. And yes there are many thing AI cannot do - like be creative or entrepreneurial, hence my post.[/quote]

Wow, so impressed by you. I work at one of the largest companies in the world also. We are looking at all sorts of ways to use AI and so far coming up with a lot of crappy half-assed "help you get started" work product.

There's a Goldman Sachs analyst who recently posted that AI at GS was 6 times more expensive than using people to do the same analytical task.

If you're busy outsourcing jobs to India that just indicates labor is cheaper in India. Shouldn't you be figuring out innovative ways to hire American graduates from American schools with all the savings from AI's speed and efficiency? Nah, you'd just rather contribute to the next wave of offshoring. Who's selling out America now?

By the way, AI does a pretty good job of making clip art and poems. So there's that...[/quote]

Did you read your own drivel before you submitted? I don't work at GS so I have zero idea why that would happen other than they are used to paying a premium for everything. Our company has a technology department so AI is easy to adapt and implement - its cheap.

And I truly wish I could sell the idea of hiring (and keeping) more Americans to senior leaders. I've tried. Unfortunately, Americans are more expensive than any other country. We are a global company and the US has the least protections for their citizens, so the easiest way to cut costs is to lay off the Americans. We can pay 3 Indians for the price of 1 American.[/quote]

Ok then, so if Americans are too expensive then it doesn't matter how well-educated they are by American universities. We just need to pray for more Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg types to emerge ready to innovate after high school.

It doesn't sound like you have a concrete plan for connecting AI and the additional randomly innovative but expensive Americans that would be educated at US universities under your plan. Sounds like Indian offshoring's going to keep winning.

I challenge you with your great American-born mind to innovate us out of this dilemma. I doubt it will come from restricting foreign students at American universities. How do you even know how good you are if you can't compare your skills to the best in the world?

And don't kid yourself that the Chinese can't innovate. Stop worrying about me and go read the business news. They are cleaning up. And with a lot of locally produced tech...not "stolen". [/quote]

Ok, let's use short sentences and simple logic.

American tax money should be for Americans.

Foreigners have opportunities in their countries. They can use their own tax money, not ours.

More foreigners here means fewer college spots for Americans.

More jobs moving to low cost centers means fewer jobs for Americans. More foreigners in US colleges mean fewer jobs for citizens, because many take jobs here post study.

Fewer jobs = worse economy

Is that so difficult to understand?

Seriously, if you don't understand that the political gap will never be bridged. Or, perhaps you are just dumb and can't get it. I'm going to assume you are smart enough to understand it.[/quote]

International students are not taking money from American universities...they are generally full pay and subsidize Americans who would not otherwise be able to afford it.

Get it?[/quote]

When I got my MS and PhD in STEM 100% of the students in my program worked on their professors grants to subsidize their education. If you went to grad school in STEM you would have noticed the same thing.

Where does the grant money come from, you should ask. Tax dollars. Ours came from NSF, NASA, state, and federal governments. This is US TAX DOLLARS.

So yes, I get it. Do you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, the point of most public services is to serve the actual public in question. Which in the case of American universities is presumably American students. It does become outrageous and concerning when universities start primarily catering to foreigners over the native populace, and college/university transforms from a genuine effort to educate the population and turns into a for-profit "get your citizenship here" feeder program

Absolutely. And why did this happen:

The total number of international students in American universities for the specified years, based on available data, is as follows:
• 1995: 452,635
• 2000: 514,723
• 2005: 564,766
• 2010: 723,277
• 2015: 1,043,839
• 2020: 914,095
• 2023: 1,057,188

That's bananas

Is there data that shows this info as a percentage of college student population? College population has also grown over this period, and there is a population burst (which I think is about to end after high school class of 2026 or maybe 2027). So some of a growth in raw numbers may be attributable to other factors.

Curious why you’re going out of your way to make so many excuses rather than just admit yes this may be problematic.

DP
I think it is bananas that we have so many foreigners here. However as a data analyst, I'd have to see these numbers normalized to the university population for them to be meaningful.

5% of the total college student pop is foreign. That is not a bananas number, PP. All countries have international students, and the US is certainly not an outlier in this regard.

Universities are here to educate humans, wherever they come from. Obviously they will serve more locals than people from far-flung locales, and that's OK. BTW, all countries subsidize their universities. So American students who are educated abroad benefit from government support in that country!

Citation from a reputable source? Plus, we are talking about universities, not 4 year colleges, technical schools, community colleges, etc.

I disagree with the bolded. My tax dollars in the university system should go ENTIRELY to Americans and I will advocate for that and vote my conscience every time.

Best hope you or a loved one don't get cancer or other disease and the best treatment was developed in the lab of a foreign born principal investigator and mixed-birth researchers. Idiot. DARWIN applauds you. Stay proud as you let them die.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7489249/

Your link perfectly illustrates what I was saying. Immigrants come here and take American students spots in American tax supported universities. Then they go on to get plumb jobs instead of Americans. Then they make the breakthroughs that Americans have traditionally made and will continue to make given more opportunities for Americans. Perfect illustration of what people are talking about.

Actually I believe that happens because of weak math education K-12 in the US and people's voluntary choice of majors. We don't have a lot of native-born Americans going to grad school in certain fields so we have to import them. American-born grad students have the same job opportunities as foreign-born grad students.

https://www.the74million.org/article/the-future-is-stem-but-without-enough-students-the-u-s-will-be-left-behind/

The world has changed, my friend. We don't need great mathematicians, we have AI. We need thinkers, innovators, and entrepreneurs to pull it all together. The US has and has always had these in abundance.

AI's still pretty stupid, my friend. If you think it's going to work out great to be a math illiterate innovator in CS and Engineering, you're an enabler. Go back to strategy consulting.

I actually am a senior AI advisor at one of the largest companies in the world. We are offshoring all these jobs to India because they are cheaper to employ IN INDIA. You should read the jobs board here. Lots of folks complaining about this right now. And yes there are many thing AI cannot do - like be creative or entrepreneurial, hence my post.

Wow, so impressed by you. I work at one of the largest companies in the world also. We are looking at all sorts of ways to use AI and so far coming up with a lot of crappy half-assed "help you get started" work product.

There's a Goldman Sachs analyst who recently posted that AI at GS was 6 times more expensive than using people to do the same analytical task.

If you're busy outsourcing jobs to India that just indicates labor is cheaper in India. Shouldn't you be figuring out innovative ways to hire American graduates from American schools with all the savings from AI's speed and efficiency? Nah, you'd just rather contribute to the next wave of offshoring. Who's selling out America now?

By the way, AI does a pretty good job of making clip art and poems. So there's that...

Did you read your own drivel before you submitted? I don't work at GS so I have zero idea why that would happen other than they are used to paying a premium for everything. Our company has a technology department so AI is easy to adapt and implement - its cheap.

And I truly wish I could sell the idea of hiring (and keeping) more Americans to senior leaders. I've tried. Unfortunately, Americans are more expensive than any other country. We are a global company and the US has the least protections for their citizens, so the easiest way to cut costs is to lay off the Americans. We can pay 3 Indians for the price of 1 American.

Ok then, so if Americans are too expensive then it doesn't matter how well-educated they are by American universities. We just need to pray for more Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg types to emerge ready to innovate after high school.

It doesn't sound like you have a concrete plan for connecting AI and the additional randomly innovative but expensive Americans that would be educated at US universities under your plan. Sounds like Indian offshoring's going to keep winning.

I challenge you with your great American-born mind to innovate us out of this dilemma. I doubt it will come from restricting foreign students at American universities. How do you even know how good you are if you can't compare your skills to the best in the world?

And don't kid yourself that the Chinese can't innovate. Stop worrying about me and go read the business news. They are cleaning up. And with a lot of locally produced tech...not "stolen".

Ok, let's use short sentences and simple logic.

American tax money should be for Americans.

Foreigners have opportunities in their countries. They can use their own tax money, not ours.

More foreigners here means fewer college spots for Americans.

More jobs moving to low cost centers means fewer jobs for Americans. More foreigners in US colleges mean fewer jobs for citizens, because many take jobs here post study.

Fewer jobs = worse economy

Is that so difficult to understand?

Seriously, if you don't understand that the political gap will never be bridged. Or, perhaps you are just dumb and can't get it. I'm going to assume you are smart enough to understand it.

Ooh simple sentences. How about this?

Unchallenged Americans won't achieve state of the art skills because they think their local-born competition is as good as gets.

Foreign students and professors will stay home and innovate there and then benefit from their home countries' industrial policy to beat us at our own game. They will have the tech and the cost structure both.

If anything, the US fails to deploy tax dollars effectively in the service of industrial policy. That's a failing that won't be corrected by banishing foreign students and cancelling research projects. Because our economy is so capitalist, we don't have effective governmental policies to grow and regrow industries. Not sure if that can be overcome but clearly it's not going to happen in the next few years.

There are many studies on the significant industry and company creation effects associated with US immigrants. Perhaps you just don't believe that research. I do. And you don't have proof that tax dollars are being wasted. You just don't approve of how they are being spent. Those are two different things.

You lost me at the first presumptuous false statement. You are unhinged. I can't read the rest as the first is nonsense

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, the point of most public services is to serve the actual public in question. Which in the case of American universities is presumably American students. It does become outrageous and concerning when universities start primarily catering to foreigners over the native populace, and college/university transforms from a genuine effort to educate the population and turns into a for-profit "get your citizenship here" feeder program

Absolutely. And why did this happen:

The total number of international students in American universities for the specified years, based on available data, is as follows:
• 1995: 452,635
• 2000: 514,723
• 2005: 564,766
• 2010: 723,277
• 2015: 1,043,839
• 2020: 914,095
• 2023: 1,057,188

That's bananas

Is there data that shows this info as a percentage of college student population? College population has also grown over this period, and there is a population burst (which I think is about to end after high school class of 2026 or maybe 2027). So some of a growth in raw numbers may be attributable to other factors.

Curious why you’re going out of your way to make so many excuses rather than just admit yes this may be problematic.

DP
I think it is bananas that we have so many foreigners here. However as a data analyst, I'd have to see these numbers normalized to the university population for them to be meaningful.

5% of the total college student pop is foreign. That is not a bananas number, PP. All countries have international students, and the US is certainly not an outlier in this regard.

Universities are here to educate humans, wherever they come from. Obviously they will serve more locals than people from far-flung locales, and that's OK. BTW, all countries subsidize their universities. So American students who are educated abroad benefit from government support in that country!

Citation from a reputable source? Plus, we are talking about universities, not 4 year colleges, technical schools, community colleges, etc.

I disagree with the bolded. My tax dollars in the university system should go ENTIRELY to Americans and I will advocate for that and vote my conscience every time.

Best hope you or a loved one don't get cancer or other disease and the best treatment was developed in the lab of a foreign born principal investigator and mixed-birth researchers. Idiot. DARWIN applauds you. Stay proud as you let them die.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7489249/

Your link perfectly illustrates what I was saying. Immigrants come here and take American students spots in American tax supported universities. Then they go on to get plumb jobs instead of Americans. Then they make the breakthroughs that Americans have traditionally made and will continue to make given more opportunities for Americans. Perfect illustration of what people are talking about.

Actually I believe that happens because of weak math education K-12 in the US and people's voluntary choice of majors. We don't have a lot of native-born Americans going to grad school in certain fields so we have to import them. American-born grad students have the same job opportunities as foreign-born grad students.

https://www.the74million.org/article/the-future-is-stem-but-without-enough-students-the-u-s-will-be-left-behind/

The world has changed, my friend. We don't need great mathematicians, we have AI. We need thinkers, innovators, and entrepreneurs to pull it all together. The US has and has always had these in abundance.

AI's still pretty stupid, my friend. If you think it's going to work out great to be a math illiterate innovator in CS and Engineering, you're an enabler. Go back to strategy consulting.

I actually am a senior AI advisor at one of the largest companies in the world. We are offshoring all these jobs to India because they are cheaper to employ IN INDIA. You should read the jobs board here. Lots of folks complaining about this right now. And yes there are many thing AI cannot do - like be creative or entrepreneurial, hence my post.

Wow, so impressed by you. I work at one of the largest companies in the world also. We are looking at all sorts of ways to use AI and so far coming up with a lot of crappy half-assed "help you get started" work product.

There's a Goldman Sachs analyst who recently posted that AI at GS was 6 times more expensive than using people to do the same analytical task.

If you're busy outsourcing jobs to India that just indicates labor is cheaper in India. Shouldn't you be figuring out innovative ways to hire American graduates from American schools with all the savings from AI's speed and efficiency? Nah, you'd just rather contribute to the next wave of offshoring. Who's selling out America now?

By the way, AI does a pretty good job of making clip art and poems. So there's that...

Did you read your own drivel before you submitted? I don't work at GS so I have zero idea why that would happen other than they are used to paying a premium for everything. Our company has a technology department so AI is easy to adapt and implement - its cheap.

And I truly wish I could sell the idea of hiring (and keeping) more Americans to senior leaders. I've tried. Unfortunately, Americans are more expensive than any other country. We are a global company and the US has the least protections for their citizens, so the easiest way to cut costs is to lay off the Americans. We can pay 3 Indians for the price of 1 American.

Ok then, so if Americans are too expensive then it doesn't matter how well-educated they are by American universities. We just need to pray for more Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg types to emerge ready to innovate after high school.

It doesn't sound like you have a concrete plan for connecting AI and the additional randomly innovative but expensive Americans that would be educated at US universities under your plan. Sounds like Indian offshoring's going to keep winning.

I challenge you with your great American-born mind to innovate us out of this dilemma. I doubt it will come from restricting foreign students at American universities. How do you even know how good you are if you can't compare your skills to the best in the world?

And don't kid yourself that the Chinese can't innovate. Stop worrying about me and go read the business news. They are cleaning up. And with a lot of locally produced tech...not "stolen".

Ok, let's use short sentences and simple logic.

American tax money should be for Americans.

Foreigners have opportunities in their countries. They can use their own tax money, not ours.

More foreigners here means fewer college spots for Americans.

More jobs moving to low cost centers means fewer jobs for Americans. More foreigners in US colleges mean fewer jobs for citizens, because many take jobs here post study.

Fewer jobs = worse economy

Is that so difficult to understand?

Seriously, if you don't understand that the political gap will never be bridged. Or, perhaps you are just dumb and can't get it. I'm going to assume you are smart enough to understand it.

International students are not taking money from American universities...they are generally full pay and subsidize Americans who would not otherwise be able to afford it.

Get it?

There are enough full pay Americans to fill these spots.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The end game is the destruction of the one thing that makes our country great - our biggest export, education.

Educated people are enlightened about history, rights, etc and if that is undermined, it aids the authoritarian classes in the US and worldwide.

The progressives are the people destroying education in the USA.

Yes because the progressives are the ones cutting science funding like crazy... oh, wait...

Progressives have made a joke of "science."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I mean, the point of most public services is to serve the actual public in question. Which in the case of American universities is presumably American students. It does become outrageous and concerning when universities start primarily catering to foreigners over the native populace, and college/university transforms from a genuine effort to educate the population and turns into a for-profit "get your citizenship here" feeder program

Absolutely. And why did this happen:

The total number of international students in American universities for the specified years, based on available data, is as follows:
• 1995: 452,635
• 2000: 514,723
• 2005: 564,766
• 2010: 723,277
• 2015: 1,043,839
• 2020: 914,095
• 2023: 1,057,188

That's bananas

Is there data that shows this info as a percentage of college student population? College population has also grown over this period, and there is a population burst (which I think is about to end after high school class of 2026 or maybe 2027). So some of a growth in raw numbers may be attributable to other factors.

Curious why you’re going out of your way to make so many excuses rather than just admit yes this may be problematic.

DP
I think it is bananas that we have so many foreigners here. However as a data analyst, I'd have to see these numbers normalized to the university population for them to be meaningful.

5% of the total college student pop is foreign. That is not a bananas number, PP. All countries have international students, and the US is certainly not an outlier in this regard.

Universities are here to educate humans, wherever they come from. Obviously they will serve more locals than people from far-flung locales, and that's OK. BTW, all countries subsidize their universities. So American students who are educated abroad benefit from government support in that country!

Citation from a reputable source? Plus, we are talking about universities, not 4 year colleges, technical schools, community colleges, etc.

I disagree with the bolded. My tax dollars in the university system should go ENTIRELY to Americans and I will advocate for that and vote my conscience every time.

Best hope you or a loved one don't get cancer or other disease and the best treatment was developed in the lab of a foreign born principal investigator and mixed-birth researchers. Idiot. DARWIN applauds you. Stay proud as you let them die.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7489249/

Your link perfectly illustrates what I was saying. Immigrants come here and take American students spots in American tax supported universities. Then they go on to get plumb jobs instead of Americans. Then they make the breakthroughs that Americans have traditionally made and will continue to make given more opportunities for Americans. Perfect illustration of what people are talking about.

Actually I believe that happens because of weak math education K-12 in the US and people's voluntary choice of majors. We don't have a lot of native-born Americans going to grad school in certain fields so we have to import them. American-born grad students have the same job opportunities as foreign-born grad students.

https://www.the74million.org/article/the-future-is-stem-but-without-enough-students-the-u-s-will-be-left-behind/

The world has changed, my friend. We don't need great mathematicians, we have AI. We need thinkers, innovators, and entrepreneurs to pull it all together. The US has and has always had these in abundance.

AI's still pretty stupid, my friend. If you think it's going to work out great to be a math illiterate innovator in CS and Engineering, you're an enabler. Go back to strategy consulting.

I actually am a senior AI advisor at one of the largest companies in the world. We are offshoring all these jobs to India because they are cheaper to employ IN INDIA. You should read the jobs board here. Lots of folks complaining about this right now. And yes there are many thing AI cannot do - like be creative or entrepreneurial, hence my post.

Wow, so impressed by you. I work at one of the largest companies in the world also. We are looking at all sorts of ways to use AI and so far coming up with a lot of crappy half-assed "help you get started" work product.

There's a Goldman Sachs analyst who recently posted that AI at GS was 6 times more expensive than using people to do the same analytical task.

If you're busy outsourcing jobs to India that just indicates labor is cheaper in India. Shouldn't you be figuring out innovative ways to hire American graduates from American schools with all the savings from AI's speed and efficiency? Nah, you'd just rather contribute to the next wave of offshoring. Who's selling out America now?

By the way, AI does a pretty good job of making clip art and poems. So there's that...

Did you read your own drivel before you submitted? I don't work at GS so I have zero idea why that would happen other than they are used to paying a premium for everything. Our company has a technology department so AI is easy to adapt and implement - its cheap.

And I truly wish I could sell the idea of hiring (and keeping) more Americans to senior leaders. I've tried. Unfortunately, Americans are more expensive than any other country. We are a global company and the US has the least protections for their citizens, so the easiest way to cut costs is to lay off the Americans. We can pay 3 Indians for the price of 1 American.

Ok then, so if Americans are too expensive then it doesn't matter how well-educated they are by American universities. We just need to pray for more Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg types to emerge ready to innovate after high school.

It doesn't sound like you have a concrete plan for connecting AI and the additional randomly innovative but expensive Americans that would be educated at US universities under your plan. Sounds like Indian offshoring's going to keep winning.

I challenge you with your great American-born mind to innovate us out of this dilemma. I doubt it will come from restricting foreign students at American universities. How do you even know how good you are if you can't compare your skills to the best in the world?

And don't kid yourself that the Chinese can't innovate. Stop worrying about me and go read the business news. They are cleaning up. And with a lot of locally produced tech...not "stolen".

Ok, let's use short sentences and simple logic.

American tax money should be for Americans.

Foreigners have opportunities in their countries. They can use their own tax money, not ours.

More foreigners here means fewer college spots for Americans.

More jobs moving to low cost centers means fewer jobs for Americans. More foreigners in US colleges mean fewer jobs for citizens, because many take jobs here post study.

Fewer jobs = worse economy

Is that so difficult to understand?

Seriously, if you don't understand that the political gap will never be bridged. Or, perhaps you are just dumb and can't get it. I'm going to assume you are smart enough to understand it.

International students are not taking money from American universities...they are generally full pay and subsidize Americans who would not otherwise be able to afford it.

Get it?

There are enough full pay Americans to fill these spots.

+1 at the undergrad level.

I'll copy what I wrote in response to the PP who doesn’t think we 'get it':

When I got my MS and PhD in STEM 100% of the students in my program worked on their professors grants to subsidize their education. If you went to grad school in STEM you would have noticed the same thing.

Where does the grant money come from, you should ask. Tax dollars. Ours came from NSF, NASA, state, and federal governments. This is US TAX DOLLARS.

So yes, I get it. Do you?

So, foreigners are absolutely sponsored by tax dollars! And there are many full pay Americans shut out of the system. Many of these American students are every bit as bright as foreigners, but the "grass is always greener" is happening at the selection level because tax dollars into projects isn't designed for Americans and it absolutely should be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So is the idea that you have to be a United States citizen to go to a United States institution? Because if so, I’m not necessarily opposed to it.

Never in history have we hosted so many foreigners un US institutions. We need to look after our own FIRST. We've neglected our own. There needs to be a cap, like <10% or some number of foreigners to allow for majority Americans.

And ban foreign students from ever attending any top 30 universities.

They have been stealing IP and American students' seats for decades while we subsidize each of these institutions with tax money in the tune of billions each year.

Tax payers are losing seats and money and foreigners are mocking Americans.

Is this the same poster? Until this week I never heard people complain that we educate too many foreigners in the USA. WTF is going on?

Bc we see the number of kids from China at Cornell or the Cali schools. And our kids can’t get in. And it morphs the feeling of these campuses and makes them “quirky” and antisocial.

Why are we educating Chinas wealthiest??? Same for India. It makes no sense.

Quirky and antisocial? That's ridiculous. Just admit you don't like foreigners! Some of the nicest people in my grad program were the international students. My grandma had a Chinese grad student friend at Cornell in the 1930s. We have their pen pal letters.

China's wealthiest and India's wealthiest either want to move here or do business here. They want to be exposed to the state of the art education. It's similar to what goes on at Oxford and Cambridge.

The international cohorts are so large that these campuses are effectively segregated. Not sure why you think it’s some paradise. It’s not.

Sounds like you have difficulty making friends with people who aren't exactly like you. International students are usually delighted to make American friends. But they will peel off in groups for comfort if nobody reaches out.

Litmus test. If you go to the cafeteria and see a group of people speaking a foreign language, does that upset you? Do you wave and say hi to the people you know in that group?

NP
I wave and say hi. They say hi and continue to speak an exclusive language to keep me and others out. It happened to DD at TJ too.

Ok. So then you make friends 1:1 and next time you can sit with them and they'll switch to English for you.

NP. Why should they have to cater to antisocial behavior? How about no one appeases them, they can stay in their groups and Americans can choose whether they want such behavior around. Pretty simple.

Unless you're Anglo-American or Native American, odds are your American immigrant forebears did exactly the same thing.

I have Eastern European heritage. When my ancestors showed up to work on railroads in Upstate New York, the Irish immigrant people literally threw rocks at them. They had a church and community organizations that all operated in their native language. Maintenance of a second language is normal. Making friends across racial/ethnic lines is also possible and normal. If you feel excluded, I really wonder whether you cared or tried to be included.

TJ is not an ordinary school. Your problems in that rarified environment are not highly relevant to mainstream experiences. Our high school is mostly white with average SAT somewhere below 1200. It's not a school district that the brightest immigrants would send their kids to. So as a consequence, my kid doesn't really know what excellence looks like. Care to trade?

Are you aware that all humans originated from Africa? Yes, even your Eastern European ancestors. Yet every other country has measures in place to protect their people BECAUSE they've gone through what the US is going through now. Do you really think because the US is a 'newer' country, we shouldn't protect what our ancestors built here? Why should we play by rules that are advantages to those without citizenship but not with? We can and should increase opportunities for our citizens today without providing those opportunities for non-citizens. Why is this so controversial? Or is the fact that you might be African just mind blowing to you?

There are a lot of ancestors who were part of the building who were not compensated for it and to this day, still suffer the stigma associated with it. Try seeing the world through other people's lenses.

Tale as old as time in every country on this planet. I do see where you are coming from, but we have to start where we are not get stuck in the past. If we shut out foreigners we are not proliferating racism. I too am a person of color. We are simply saying what we are doing now is not sustainable, just like every "old world" country has already done.

despite Trumpism, the world is a global community. Integrating our higher education with people from around the world makes American-born students stronger and more worldly.

Exactly what university partnerships are for. Foreign students attend their universities, American students attend ours. We form partnerships and Bingo - win win.

Just FYI the division of the State Dept that facilitated and helped fund university partnerships has already been eliminated.