Question about the homophobia thread

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:If you spend any time on r/detrans you’ll see many detransitioners feel like they were young and impressionable children when they were put on puberty blockers, estrogen, testosterone….or when they had sex-reassignment surgery.

It’s pretty tragic.

“What happens when you’re wrong?”

Almost the entire medical field supports gender affirming care. When you have been asked for statistics about detransitioning, your source is a Reddit subreddit? Interesting.

The number of individuals who medically transition is small. The number of those who detransition is a marginal portion of those. Yet, that small number gets outsized attention because they are heavily promoted by the anti-trans movement. See this article for an interesting look at this phenomenon:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/16/us/politics/transgender-care-detransitioners.html

If you don't have a Times subscription, here are some excerpts:

As Republican-controlled state legislatures have passed over a dozen bills banning transition care for minors this year and have moved to restrict care for adults, Ms. Cole and fewer than 10 activists like her — people who transitioned and then changed course — have become the faces of the cause, according to a New York Times review of news coverage and legislative testimony.

Most people who transition do not change course. And yet, the influence of these activists has been striking.

Here is someone who regretted detransitioning:

Before long, Ms. Shupe, a 59-year-old Army veteran, was enmeshed in what she calls a “spider web” of activists opposing transgender rights.

“I had no limits on how far I would go to please people and help them win,” she said. “At every turn, I had people heaping praise on me, which motivated me to do more and more.”

But last year, she reaffirmed her female identity and returned to living as a woman. She renounced her work with conservative groups and, this year, gave hundreds of her emails with her former allies to The Times and other news outlets.

I wonder if the previous poster is concerned about whether the Conservative movement continues to embrace those who have decided to re-transition?

The article also documents those who detransition, but not due to regret and who still consider themselves trans.

This fixation on outlier cases that are not representative of reality should be familiar to anyone who follows the abortion debate. Abortion opponents routinely highlight late-term abortions despite their rarity in order to justify strict abortion restrictions.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:So if it isn’t a mental health issue, it’s considered cosmetic and therefor should not be covered by insurance

Circumcision is covered, so is breast reconstruction, so is a million other things but we cover it. Why aren’t you outraged about that?

Breast reconstruction isn’t covered for women who mistakenly believed they were trans as teens and had mastectomies.

Way to miss the point. Reconstructions aren’t medically necessary for women who had cancer either. We cover them because we know how important it is for a woman to feel like a woman.

Because there is an obvious biological component to being a woman that induces certain feelings that no biological man could ever experience or imagine.

Was that your experience as a transgender woman?

Are you saying a trans woman knows what it feels like to menstruate? To go through post pardum depression? To have a miscarriage? To have hot flashes? Please explain.

I’m saying you have no idea what it’s like to be a transgender woman.

And FYI those experiences do not define women.

And what feelings exactly do trans women have that make them women? I get that this is an incendiary question but isn’t it a logical one?

Do you ask all women that question?

There are no universal “feelings” for being a woman.

That’s because being a woman is defined by chromosomes and biology- not “feelings.”

You’re referring to sex.

Here you go:

No sweetheart I’m not. Sex, chromosomes and biology define a woman, which is simply an adult human female. There is no such thing as gender, except in the realm of languages

Are all of the bigots this ignorant?

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1
“Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.”

I know that’s what it says I’m your women’s gender studies book. But that is an incorrect, made up definition

That link is from the World Health Organization, I’d say that they have more credibility than an anonymous bigot.

Of course you would. It still means nothing.

The original poster of this thread asked why we can't have discussions on topics such as this. Posters like you are the reason why. There is nothing to discuss with you. There is no evidence that can change your mind. Therefore, I would kindly ask that you withdraw from this discussion so that those with less closed minds can continue.

Serious question: How can anyone feel that a world health organization has credibility if they put North Korea in a decision-making position, seeing how badly they treat their own people?

I have not said anything about the WHO, but practically every major medical association has the same policy. They don't all have North Korea involved. Moreover, the WHO position was well established prior to North Korea's involvement. You should evaluate the WHO position based on its medical merits rather than the latest right-wing outrage of the week.

Here is a list that you can evaluate for North Korean influence:

https://transhealthproject.org/resources/medical-organization-statements/

[Anonymous]

The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

How about those who detransition, but then regret it and re-transition? Do they have stories to tell and do you think their voices are important for the debate? Do you think they should be promoted similarly?

[Anonymous]

^con’t

YES, I am VERY concerned about conservatives being the only one to stand up for detransitioners because they truly don’t give a damn about people.

Again, no one else is standing up for these people. I’ll note that this sentiment is often expressed in r/detrans.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

How about those who detransition, but then regret it and re-transition? Do they have stories to tell and do you think their voices are important for the debate? Do you think they should be promoted similarly?

YES, of course they have voices, too. Of course!

I think everyone involved should have their voices heard. It’s odd that you would think I’d want to silence any voices. I never indicated that I support silencing contrary opinions….like many activists do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

How about those who detransition, but then regret it and re-transition? Do they have stories to tell and do you think their voices are important for the debate? Do you think they should be promoted similarly?

YES, of course they have voices, too. Of course!

I think everyone involved should have their voices heard. It’s odd that you would think I’d want to silence any voices. I never indicated that I support silencing contrary opinions….like many activists do.

+1

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it isn’t a mental health issue, it’s considered cosmetic and therefor should not be covered by insurance

Circumcision is covered, so is breast reconstruction, so is a million other things but we cover it. Why aren’t you outraged about that?

Breast reconstruction isn’t covered for women who mistakenly believed they were trans as teens and had mastectomies.

Way to miss the point. Reconstructions aren’t medically necessary for women who had cancer either. We cover them because we know how important it is for a woman to feel like a woman.

Because there is an obvious biological component to being a woman that induces certain feelings that no biological man could ever experience or imagine.

Was that your experience as a transgender woman?

Are you saying a trans woman knows what it feels like to menstruate? To go through post pardum depression? To have a miscarriage? To have hot flashes? Please explain.

I’m saying you have no idea what it’s like to be a transgender woman.

And FYI those experiences do not define women.

And what feelings exactly do trans women have that make them women? I get that this is an incendiary question but isn’t it a logical one?

Do you ask all women that question?

There are no universal “feelings” for being a woman.

That’s because being a woman is defined by chromosomes and biology- not “feelings.”

You’re referring to sex.

Here you go:

No sweetheart I’m not. Sex, chromosomes and biology define a woman, which is simply an adult human female. There is no such thing as gender, except in the realm of languages

Are all of the bigots this ignorant?

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1
“Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.”

So my sincere question is - if gender is defined by norms, behaviors and roles, why does a transgender male need to have his breasts removed? They are merely a biological part of their anatomy. It seems like that makes a person transsex- they want the biological anatomy of the sex they identify with.

Anyone?

Most transgender males do not need to have their breasts removed. Most transitions are purely social. How people transition (most transitions are not medical) and their reasons for doing so are personal and each individual has their own reasons for doing so. None of us can answer as to "why" on their behalf.

Thank you for you answer Jeff. I get that it is an individual decision for everyone. I guess I am stuck on the people who have gender affirming surgery. Because it’s not really gender affirming, is is biological sex affirming. If people want to say that sex and gender are two different things, this muddies the water for me. I just don’t get it.

[Anonymous]

“Almost the entire medical field supports gender affirming care.”

This is simply not true. European medical societies have pulled back from the treatment plans still seen in the US. Our medical societies are victims of institutional capture. The AAP was asked by members to review the evidence and they refuse. Read this open letter from Genspect on the issue - https://genspect.org/an-open-letter-to-the-american-academy-of-pediatrics/

Check out SEGM’s work as well. https://segm.org/ You can’t hide behind the statement that this is accepted practice in the medical field. It’s not. It’s not happening in Europe any more and there are many concerned practitioners in the US who are silenced by the organizations that are supposed to represent them.

There are billions of Pharma dollars behind this https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/billionaire-family-pushing-synthetic-sex-identities-ssi-pritzkers The similarities with the opioid scandal are notable.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

How about those who detransition, but then regret it and re-transition? Do they have stories to tell and do you think their voices are important for the debate? Do you think they should be promoted similarly?

YES, of course they have voices, too. Of course!

I think everyone involved should have their voices heard. It’s odd that you would think I’d want to silence any voices. I never indicated that I support silencing contrary opinions….like many activists do.

Well then you can set an example for all of us by including them in your own posts. You have been eager to convince everyone that doctors are conspiring to trick people into transitioning, but have ignored the pressure to detransition.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

How about those who detransition, but then regret it and re-transition? Do they have stories to tell and do you think their voices are important for the debate? Do you think they should be promoted similarly?

YES, of course they have voices, too. Of course!

I think everyone involved should have their voices heard. It’s odd that you would think I’d want to silence any voices. I never indicated that I support silencing contrary opinions….like many activists do.

Well then you can set an example for all of us by including them in your own posts. You have been eager to convince everyone that doctors are conspiring to trick people into transitioning, but have ignored the pressure to detransition.

“Doctors conspiring to trick people.” I never said that or implied that, Jeff, and you know it.

Misrepresentation fallacy is common tactic by activists to refute another person. It shows you’re not serious.

[Anonymous]

^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

[Anonymous]

The issue of transitioning and then detransitioning is interesting but not really all that relevant when we’re talking about kids. At most, doctors are proving puberty blockers so kids have time to fully explore their identities. Very very few kids are having any sort of surgery before they are at least 16. The point is more around social acceptance. There is literally no harm in calling them by their chosen name and pronouns and allowing them to live their lives as they identify. And there is a ton of potential harm in not doing so

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

How about those who detransition, but then regret it and re-transition? Do they have stories to tell and do you think their voices are important for the debate? Do you think they should be promoted similarly?

YES, of course they have voices, too. Of course!

I think everyone involved should have their voices heard. It’s odd that you would think I’d want to silence any voices. I never indicated that I support silencing contrary opinions….like many activists do.

Well then you can set an example for all of us by including them in your own posts. You have been eager to convince everyone that doctors are conspiring to trick people into transitioning, but have ignored the pressure to detransition.

“Doctors conspiring to trick people.” I never said that or implied that, Jeff, and you know it.

Misrepresentation fallacy is common tactic by activists to refute another person. It shows you’re not serious.

I am not an activist. I am simply someone who read your post discussing, "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". If you didn't mean that the way that it came out, please clarify.