What is with DCUM women and "mental loads?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread reminded me that my husband asked me to sign him up to be a mystery reader today. But he got called into a meeting and now can’t do it and I didn’t remember because it’s on his calendar, not mine, and now I’m scrambling to get this taken care of because our kid will be super disappointed if his parent is the only one who forgets to show up on his week.

Perfect example! He was going to *do* it, but you had to schedule it and now schedule his replacement.

This would be a perfect opportunity for a kid to learn about adult life and that things happen, and sometimes go not as planned. The kid will learn not to sweat over that s..t that most women on this thread are talking about.

Actually, it would have been a perfect opportunity for dad to learn about adult life and how to sign up for these things on his own. If H wants to sign up for things, respond “great. You can do so by logging into our school account”.

“I don’t know the school account website or login”

“They were emailed at the beginning of the year, perhaps it’s in your inbox”

“It’s not”

“Okay, contact the school and they’ll get you set up”.

Dad will be a whole lot more likely to remember these things if he sets them up and faces the consequences.

Agree. I think most of the women who complain about mental load married disfunctional man (even if they are highly functional and very successful in their carrier) and now crying out for handling all that unnecessary burden by themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If you had a spouse who adds to the labor in your household (one more person to feed, one more person whose laundry needs to be done, one more person who has appointments and commitments around which family plans have to be made), but that spouse didn’t contribute equally to running the household, you might feel resentful. Also, was there anything that your wife did that you don’t do for the household? Do you entertain just as much, decorate just as much, write as many thank you cards, stay in equally in touch with extended relatives, buy as many gifts for your nieces/nephews, etc.? If you do, that’s wonderful, but you’re the exception, not the rule.

He responded. He doesn’t, he offloads everything onto his kids, who are older teens.

There’s your martyr complex again. He empowers his teens to take responsibility for their own needs, while he still provides for them financially. They will be much better off fir it in college, being self-sufficient adults, than the offspring of helicopter martyr moms when they’re out on their own for the first time after having been raised with learned helplessness because poor, abused helicopter mommy did everything for them so she could complain about it.

There is a balance to be struck with teens. There is a difference between checking out and giving kids responsibility and independence with guidance. It's not a choice between the extremes of helicopter or neglect. But checking out and calling it "giving kids independence" is disingenuous.

+1 I think the Single Dad's example of sending his daughters to the doctor alone is pretty negligent. And he never came back to talk about how he (?) managed the elementary years when the mental load is enormous.

Sending a kid old enough to drive to the doctor alone is not negligent. Raising a kid who can’t handle that might be.

+1,000, presuming it is a routine doctor’s checkup appointment and not a chemotherapy appointment, which there is absolutely 0% indication that it is anything of the sort

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are complicating things and you are the reason why your children need therapy. I am a working mom, and I don't do most of those things. I don't have any picky eaters because my priorities were to raise healthy kids, and not worry about Christmas cards. I don't keep track of anyone's addresses and don't send any cards (I am Christian and cards have nothing to do with Christmas). My kids are in high school and college now and we never had any professional shoots and we don't have a single photo with Santa. We never ever coordinated clothes (this sounds really crazy). I don't track birthdays for extended families, only my own family (my husband, my kids, my parents, and my sibling). I never tracked the school calendar and kids always were responsible for that. They are now pretty independent. We don't keep materials on hand (I hate clutter and I am very minimalistic) and kids learn to be creative when they need to make something last minute. Dentist and pediatrician - my husband chose them from the insurance provider's list and is close to our house. We never used therapists for children. We never chose extracurricular for kids, they were allowed to do what they like. Two kids were accepted into several Ivies. I potty trained them before they reach 1 y.o. and they didn't start daycare until the age of 3. Childcare varied over the years. We have no family around so we had to be very flexible and creative. Kids never had behavior issues. I think kids reflect your mental state, and if you are so anxious about all the things you listed, it is going to affect your kid's mental state a lot. No screen time policy as we never had cable TV or video games. Kids always were active in sport, several varsity teams.

NP here. And wow!
1. You are seriously going to blame PP for her kid's ADHD?! What is this, the 1960s?
2. If your kids are in college, then I don't think you really understand what it's like to have younger kids these days. When my older sister first talked about scheduling activities etc, I thought like you that she was nuts. And now I realize that things just don't work like they used to. Even if an elementary kid wants to play a sport, you have to sign up the day they open...or all of the slots will be gone. The HW load for even Kindergarteners is insane. We vacillate between not enforcing it and not wanting to undermine the teacher. But either way, my 5 y.o. is simply not able to manage this on his own. Neither is my 7 y.o...given how much more work she is given.
3. I don't do most of the stuff the PP talks about either (Christmas cards, matching outfits, etc)...but those aren't really the things that suck up your energy IMHO.

Sweetie, those of us in kids in college completely know what it’s like to have younger kids. There’s nothing particularly novel about “these days.” It’s just that we are FAR more experienced than you are in parenting and can put the tedium of those younger years in perspective because they are a cakewalk compared to managing teens.

So, your answer is that because some people perceive that parenting HS kids is more stressful than ES kids that ES parents don't actually have any stress? I guess I should tell my 5 y.o. he shouldn't get frustrated when he struggles to tie his shoes because some day he's going to have to do calculus...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If you had a spouse who adds to the labor in your household (one more person to feed, one more person whose laundry needs to be done, one more person who has appointments and commitments around which family plans have to be made), but that spouse didn’t contribute equally to running the household, you might feel resentful. Also, was there anything that your wife did that you don’t do for the household? Do you entertain just as much, decorate just as much, write as many thank you cards, stay in equally in touch with extended relatives, buy as many gifts for your nieces/nephews, etc.? If you do, that’s wonderful, but you’re the exception, not the rule.

He responded. He doesn’t, he offloads everything onto his kids, who are older teens.

There’s your martyr complex again. He empowers his teens to take responsibility for their own needs, while he still provides for them financially. They will be much better off fir it in college, being self-sufficient adults, than the offspring of helicopter martyr moms when they’re out on their own for the first time after having been raised with learned helplessness because poor, abused helicopter mommy did everything for them so she could complain about it.

There is a balance to be struck with teens. There is a difference between checking out and giving kids responsibility and independence with guidance. It's not a choice between the extremes of helicopter or neglect. But checking out and calling it "giving kids independence" is disingenuous.

+1 I think the Single Dad's example of sending his daughters to the doctor alone is pretty negligent. And he never came back to talk about how he (?) managed the elementary years when the mental load is enormous.

Sending a kid old enough to drive to the doctor alone is not negligent. Raising a kid who can’t handle that might be.

+1,000, presuming it is a routine doctor’s checkup appointment and not a chemotherapy appointment, which there is absolutely 0% indication that it is anything of the sort

Okay, so we can take "routine doctor's appointments for older teens who have access to transportation" off the list. That doesn't help all that much!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in an elementary school and often kids are sent to school without coats in the winter. Every single time, it's when the dad drops them off. Every. Time. If you say something to the father, their reply is along the lines of "oh, she forgot to grab it this morning! Oops!" Which may be acceptable for a 5th grader, but for a kindergartener or first grader, who can't be responsible for remembering every single thing they bring to school, it's not okay. The parent needs to verify that the kid has everything. And the next day, guess what, dad forgets the coat again.

But, talking with the dads got nowhere, so now we have to say something to the moms as well if we want the kids to be warm. So now, while dad is technically doing the drop off, mom has to take on the mental load of letting dad know he forgot the coat and making sure he brings it at all future drop offs. Now mom has to pack all school things up the night before, double check that dad got everything, remind her child to grab their coat, etc. And when that's happening for multiple little things, it all starts to add up.

And, even worse, dads will have excuses like "I don't know where her coat is" or for the divorced ones, "she doesn't have a coat at my place". So it's clear they think knowing where basic necessities are isn't important since mom can do it, and that mom should be responsible for getting necessities for dad's house, too.

Saw it play out in action among 8th graders at school today.

My kids *know* if they want outdoor play time, they need to clean up after lunch. They’ve been told a million times.

Yet without fail, the boys will finish eating and then start goofing off. The girls want to go out, so their options are to either do all the cleaning themselves, or they have to nag the boys over and over to clean up. This goes on until finally lunch time is over, they lost the opportunity to go out, and the boys are pissed at me since it’s somehow my fault they can’t remember to clean. Or, girls will finish cleaning everything, I’ll let them go out, and the boys start heading out the door thinking they’re entitled to go, too, despite doing zero work.

So the girls are carrying the load of 1. Remembering to clean up and 2. Doing most of the cleaning themselves.

Pissed me off so much today that the rest of the week, girls get to go out while boys have to stay behind and clean everything. They gotta learn somehow.

See the problem here isn’t the dynamic you describe. It’s the stupid rule that you have to clean up before going out.

WHo's going to clean up their lunch if they don't?

Cafeteria employees? Custodians? Isn't this their job?

No, it’s not.

Glad I could help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread reminded me that my husband asked me to sign him up to be a mystery reader today. But he got called into a meeting and now can’t do it and I didn’t remember because it’s on his calendar, not mine, and now I’m scrambling to get this taken care of because our kid will be super disappointed if his parent is the only one who forgets to show up on his week.

Perfect example! He was going to *do* it, but you had to schedule it and now schedule his replacement.

This would be a perfect opportunity for a kid to learn about adult life and that things happen, and sometimes go not as planned. The kid will learn not to sweat over that s..t that most women on this thread are talking about.

I’m assuming this kid is what, 7 or 8, tops? You think it’s good to let a 7-year-old learn that he can’t depend on his parents?

Depend in what way? To change his diaper? No. He is highly capable of doing it himself. Depend on me providing him with love, roof, food, and safety? Absolutely yes! Showing up in school -- it is totally optional.

My parents were like you. I am pretty independent, but I think they were crappy parents and don't talk to them much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Superdad, the reason people are hostile is that their husbands don’t go any of that. They do nothing. Dead weight. Many women are married to men who don’t engage with their kids, don’t handle any finances, don’t cook or clean, don’t help with picking pediatricians or therapists or summer camps or whatever. You sound like a great dad. Surely you must know it’s not the norm.

You say your wife was a SAHM for a time when the kids were little, that she probably handled potty training. Well another thing you must realize about the posters being hostile is that they are in that phase now, or close to it. They might be SAHMs who don’t feel appreciated (presumably you appreciated your wife when she did this, you sound like someone with good relationships skills). Many of the hostile posters are working moms who are doing a lot of the SAHM stuff, have deadweight husbands, and have jobs. It’s a lot. It’s different when kids are older. Yes, there’s a mental load but as you demonstrate, you can share it with your kids if you e done a good job giving them independence. It’s been a while since you experienced young kids, and it sounds like your wife handled a lot of that. So people are annoyed by the “it’s not hard” comments from you — you are comparing apples to oranges.

Also, some husbands are not only dead weight but an added burden. They have undiagnosed ADHD or personality disorders or just… issues. And their wives are accommodating that while also doing most/all the housework and childcare. If you’ve never been married to someone like this it’s hard to explain. It increases the mental load in exponential ways. Your spouse becomes like another child, only one who is hostile to your attempts to help because he often is embarrassed and defensive about his issues and wants to pretend they aren’t happening.

Again, you seem like a great dad. Your girls are lucky. I’m sorry your wife passed. You should be proud of the family you’ve built. But you don’t know what others are going through. You don’t understand because you’ve not been in the same situation. Not all parenting experiences are the same. Sometimes you just have to listen and realize you only have the answers for your questions. You haven’t solved marriage, or parenting, or life. Accept that others may struggle in ways that seem foreign to you, and that does not automatically mean they are doing it wrong.

Be that as it may, the point remains that a lot of this whining about “mental loads” is self-inflicted dysfunction, likely internalized by what they think they *should* be doing.

I also reject your assertion that the disengaged dad is the norm. I will not concede that for a minute. It certainly isn’t my experience with my circle of
Dad, ie my poker buddies. It’s actually more of a cliche and a trope. You hear it here because people with axes to grind are whining — do not confuse that with the norm. Sucks to be them, but they are the ones having deviances from the norm.

Also, there is a heavy bias toward what contributions to family life should be valued or “count” as mental load. But you are insane if you are going to assert with a straight fact that the mental load of remembering to send a nephew a gift is the same as being sure the mortgage is paid or retaining job security more broadly. Or the mental load of many other things martyr moms don’t value but are every bit as important if not more so than the relatively insignificant things they obsess about, often because they feel pressure to be in competition with other women in their communities.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread reminded me that my husband asked me to sign him up to be a mystery reader today. But he got called into a meeting and now can’t do it and I didn’t remember because it’s on his calendar, not mine, and now I’m scrambling to get this taken care of because our kid will be super disappointed if his parent is the only one who forgets to show up on his week.

Perfect example! He was going to *do* it, but you had to schedule it and now schedule his replacement.

She didn’t “have” to do anything of the sort. She CHOSE to take on something that was his responsibility. If the kid is sad about dad not being there, send him to dad for an explanation. “Mystery readers” are not life and death.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread reminded me that my husband asked me to sign him up to be a mystery reader today. But he got called into a meeting and now can’t do it and I didn’t remember because it’s on his calendar, not mine, and now I’m scrambling to get this taken care of because our kid will be super disappointed if his parent is the only one who forgets to show up on his week.

Perfect example! He was going to *do* it, but you had to schedule it and now schedule his replacement.

This would be a perfect opportunity for a kid to learn about adult life and that things happen, and sometimes go not as planned. The kid will learn not to sweat over that s..t that most women on this thread are talking about.

I’m assuming this kid is what, 7 or 8, tops? You think it’s good to let a 7-year-old learn that he can’t depend on his parents?

Depend in what way? To change his diaper? No. He is highly capable of doing it himself. Depend on me providing him with love, roof, food, and safety? Absolutely yes! Showing up in school -- it is totally optional.

It's not optional when you've signed up to do it. It would have been fine if he'd never signed up at all. But he did (or had his wife do it) and likely told his son he was going to do it. So at that point not showing up is a failed obligation.

Plus the whole point is that this full grown man couldn't just sign up himself (does he not have the teacher's email? access to the sign up sheet?) and then reschedule or whatever himself when he realized he had a conflict. Why is his wife acting as his secretarial assistant here? That's the part that's relevant to the thread.

You’re right. WHY IS SHE? Send him the information once. If he asks her to do it for him, SAY NO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread reminded me that my husband asked me to sign him up to be a mystery reader today. But he got called into a meeting and now can’t do it and I didn’t remember because it’s on his calendar, not mine, and now I’m scrambling to get this taken care of because our kid will be super disappointed if his parent is the only one who forgets to show up on his week.

Perfect example! He was going to *do* it, but you had to schedule it and now schedule his replacement.

This would be a perfect opportunity for a kid to learn about adult life and that things happen, and sometimes go not as planned. The kid will learn not to sweat over that s..t that most women on this thread are talking about.

I’m assuming this kid is what, 7 or 8, tops? You think it’s good to let a 7-year-old learn that he can’t depend on his parents?

Depend in what way? To change his diaper? No. He is highly capable of doing it himself. Depend on me providing him with love, roof, food, and safety? Absolutely yes! Showing up in school -- it is totally optional.

My parents were like you. I am pretty independent, but I think they were crappy parents and don't talk to them much.

I cut ties.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Lol at the paying the mortgage stuff. I’ve set the mortgage payment on autopay. It takes the least time of any of my tasks. (Maybe once a year or less when the payment changes I have to adjust it). It takes much, much more time to figure out summer activities for the kids. I wonder what super dad’s kids would have to say about his attention to their emotional and developmental needs.

I wasn’t referring to the physical act of paying the mortgage, rather the mental stress of providing for a family in the first place.

And it's your claim that the mental stress of providing for a family falls only on men?

Hoo-boy, as you are no doubt familiar with people saying, there in your timewarp version of reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is a meta example of mental load. Women analyzing and debating what of mental load should be done or shared. I’m quite sure my DH wouldn’t spend more than 30 seconds considering it.

So freaking true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are complicating things and you are the reason why your children need therapy. I am a working mom, and I don't do most of those things. I don't have any picky eaters because my priorities were to raise healthy kids, and not worry about Christmas cards. I don't keep track of anyone's addresses and don't send any cards (I am Christian and cards have nothing to do with Christmas). My kids are in high school and college now and we never had any professional shoots and we don't have a single photo with Santa. We never ever coordinated clothes (this sounds really crazy). I don't track birthdays for extended families, only my own family (my husband, my kids, my parents, and my sibling). I never tracked the school calendar and kids always were responsible for that. They are now pretty independent. We don't keep materials on hand (I hate clutter and I am very minimalistic) and kids learn to be creative when they need to make something last minute. Dentist and pediatrician - my husband chose them from the insurance provider's list and is close to our house. We never used therapists for children. We never chose extracurricular for kids, they were allowed to do what they like. Two kids were accepted into several Ivies. I potty trained them before they reach 1 y.o. and they didn't start daycare until the age of 3. Childcare varied over the years. We have no family around so we had to be very flexible and creative. Kids never had behavior issues. I think kids reflect your mental state, and if you are so anxious about all the things you listed, it is going to affect your kid's mental state a lot. No screen time policy as we never had cable TV or video games. Kids always were active in sport, several varsity teams.

NP here. And wow!
1. You are seriously going to blame PP for her kid's ADHD?! What is this, the 1960s?
2. If your kids are in college, then I don't think you really understand what it's like to have younger kids these days. When my older sister first talked about scheduling activities etc, I thought like you that she was nuts. And now I realize that things just don't work like they used to. Even if an elementary kid wants to play a sport, you have to sign up the day they open...or all of the slots will be gone. The HW load for even Kindergarteners is insane. We vacillate between not enforcing it and not wanting to undermine the teacher. But either way, my 5 y.o. is simply not able to manage this on his own. Neither is my 7 y.o...given how much more work she is given.
3. I don't do most of the stuff the PP talks about either (Christmas cards, matching outfits, etc)...but those aren't really the things that suck up your energy IMHO.

DP. No, but if mom (or dad, for that matter) is getting anxious about setting up professional photos and coordinating outfits for a Christmas card photo, or having a "screen time policy" or picking out a pediatrician/dentist...then yes, that sounds like the kind of home that would lead to anxious kids who need a therapist. I can say that because I DO have an anxious kid and looking back, yeah, a lot of it was because I stressed over things that do.not.matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are complicating things and you are the reason why your children need therapy. I am a working mom, and I don't do most of those things. I don't have any picky eaters because my priorities were to raise healthy kids, and not worry about Christmas cards. I don't keep track of anyone's addresses and don't send any cards (I am Christian and cards have nothing to do with Christmas). My kids are in high school and college now and we never had any professional shoots and we don't have a single photo with Santa. We never ever coordinated clothes (this sounds really crazy). I don't track birthdays for extended families, only my own family (my husband, my kids, my parents, and my sibling). I never tracked the school calendar and kids always were responsible for that. They are now pretty independent. We don't keep materials on hand (I hate clutter and I am very minimalistic) and kids learn to be creative when they need to make something last minute. Dentist and pediatrician - my husband chose them from the insurance provider's list and is close to our house. We never used therapists for children. We never chose extracurricular for kids, they were allowed to do what they like. Two kids were accepted into several Ivies. I potty trained them before they reach 1 y.o. and they didn't start daycare until the age of 3. Childcare varied over the years. We have no family around so we had to be very flexible and creative. Kids never had behavior issues. I think kids reflect your mental state, and if you are so anxious about all the things you listed, it is going to affect your kid's mental state a lot. No screen time policy as we never had cable TV or video games. Kids always were active in sport, several varsity teams.

NP here. And wow!
1. You are seriously going to blame PP for her kid's ADHD?! What is this, the 1960s?
2. If your kids are in college, then I don't think you really understand what it's like to have younger kids these days. When my older sister first talked about scheduling activities etc, I thought like you that she was nuts. And now I realize that things just don't work like they used to. Even if an elementary kid wants to play a sport, you have to sign up the day they open...or all of the slots will be gone. The HW load for even Kindergarteners is insane. We vacillate between not enforcing it and not wanting to undermine the teacher. But either way, my 5 y.o. is simply not able to manage this on his own. Neither is my 7 y.o...given how much more work she is given.
3. I don't do most of the stuff the PP talks about either (Christmas cards, matching outfits, etc)...but those aren't really the things that suck up your energy IMHO.

DP. No, but if mom (or dad, for that matter) is getting anxious about setting up professional photos and coordinating outfits for a Christmas card photo, or having a "screen time policy" or picking out a pediatrician/dentist...then yes, that sounds like the kind of home that would lead to anxious kids who need a therapist. I can say that because I DO have an anxious kid and looking back, yeah, a lot of it was because I stressed over things that do.not.matter.

ADHD =/= anxiety

[Anonymous]

Monday was hat day at my 5 year old's school. Usually I am the one who gets the kids ready and on the bus; but I was out of town until yesterday afternoon. I get a call at noon from my daughter's teacher saying that she had to confiscate my daughter's hat and daughter is very upset (what 5 year old wouldn't be upset that their hat was taken away?!) - turns out dh had nooo idea it was hat day, dd remembered, dh was doing lord knows what and didn't help dd find a hat to wear...so she went into his closet and picked something out and put it in her backpack to bring to school. The hat? A Miller High Life logo baseball cap. Of course she didn't really know that was beer, she just liked the yellow color. And I did find it kind of funny and chuckle a bit, but also...if I were home like I normally am, I would have known it was hat day and helped dd pick out something SCHOOL-APPROPRIATE. Mental load.