US has no good options in Ukraine

[Anonymous]

I haven't read all of this monster thread, but the selfish Democrat who is being quoted at the top of page 162 (the one who calls her opponents "cretins") is disgusting.

I say this as a Bernie Sanders supporter, as someone who considers herself borderline-socialist.

You are a person with absolutely no principles. You don't care if other brave souls are suffering, as long as you can enjoy your wine and peaceful, bright skies here in the U.S.

If we don't die from Russia's nukes we are going to die from a climate apocalypse, genius. It's going to be a rough century one way or another. May as well learn to live with integrity and values during the time we have left.

Or, you know, just say the oppression of other countries isn't your problem and you don't feel very bad about it either.

As if Russia is going to stop with Ukraine. As if Putin doesn't know that "Americans" like you exist. As if China isn't watching all of this.

Honestly, people like this cretin Democrat should be the first to be sacrificed in a war or in a nuclear apocalypse. I have no use for cowards, nor any respect for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read all of this monster thread, but the selfish Democrat who is being quoted at the top of page 162 (the one who calls her opponents "cretins") is disgusting.

I say this as a Bernie Sanders supporter, as someone who considers herself borderline-socialist.

You are a person with absolutely no principles. You don't care if other brave souls are suffering, as long as you can enjoy your wine and peaceful, bright skies here in the U.S.

If we don't die from Russia's nukes we are going to die from a climate apocalypse, genius. It's going to be a rough century one way or another. May as well learn to live with integrity and values during the time we have left.

Or, you know, just say the oppression of other countries isn't your problem and you don't feel very bad about it either.

As if Russia is going to stop with Ukraine. As if Putin doesn't know that "Americans" like you exist. As if China isn't watching all of this.

Honestly, people like this cretin Democrat should be the first to be sacrificed in a war or in a nuclear apocalypse. I have no use for cowards, nor any respect for them.

Democrat PP here. You wrote all that and not a single fig was given. Not a single thing has changed. The Russian convoy is still heading to Ukraine. You’re still just a keyboard warrior virtue signaling online. Stay mad. I’m going to enjoy my life regardless of you and Ukraine. And let’s face it: You’re going to enjoy your life too. You won’t even donate a single dime, much less do anything to help Ukraine. Typical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read all of this monster thread, but the selfish Democrat who is being quoted at the top of page 162 (the one who calls her opponents "cretins") is disgusting.

I say this as a Bernie Sanders supporter, as someone who considers herself borderline-socialist.

You are a person with absolutely no principles. You don't care if other brave souls are suffering, as long as you can enjoy your wine and peaceful, bright skies here in the U.S.

If we don't die from Russia's nukes we are going to die from a climate apocalypse, genius. It's going to be a rough century one way or another. May as well learn to live with integrity and values during the time we have left.

Or, you know, just say the oppression of other countries isn't your problem and you don't feel very bad about it either.

As if Russia is going to stop with Ukraine. As if Putin doesn't know that "Americans" like you exist. As if China isn't watching all of this.

Honestly, people like this cretin Democrat should be the first to be sacrificed in a war or in a nuclear apocalypse. I have no use for cowards, nor any respect for them.

Democrat PP here. You wrote all that and not a single fig was given. Not a single thing has changed. The Russian convoy is still heading to Ukraine. You’re still just a keyboard warrior virtue signaling online. Stay mad. I’m going to enjoy my life regardless of you and Ukraine. And let’s face it: You’re going to enjoy your life too. You won’t even donate a single dime, much less do anything to help Ukraine. Typical.

I actually have donated, lol. You literally just projected your own lack of integrity onto me.

Yes, I know I didn't change your mind. Some people really love their selfishness and I am okay with that. But one day you will finally realize how much contempt you arouse in other people, and it might help you finally understand that you never really respected yourself either. It's impossible to be a selfish coward and also respect yourself.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

Tell me you're a Trumper without saying so.

See, this is a major part of why we have no business getting into war with Russia. Our nation is littered with cretins like you who hallucinate Trump everywhere. I’m a Democrat. A lifelong Democrat. And I don’t think it’s my business to go worrying about people halfway around the world when I share a country with people like you. You’re a much bigger problem.

I guess you don't understand we live in a globally connected community of nations.

Gotcha. That was news to me. Thank you, Captain Obvious. How exactly does any of that suggest we should go fighting someone who has nukes? When is the last time the US went to war with a country that had nukes? You don’t think there’s a reason we avoid such confrontations?

DP. Someone who has nukes and has threatened to use them unless their aggressive demands are met, can NEVER be appeased. You will never be able to avoid a confrontation with Putin, the only question is when.

OK, so nuclear holocaust is inevitable then. I might as well enjoy my coffee and drive my gas guzzler to my vacation home. If the end is nigh, I’m not going to go rushing towards it with bloodshot eyes screaming some nonsense about moral obligations to Ukraine.

You don't seem to be able to read the room. This is not about a moral obligation to Ukraine, this is much bigger than Ukraine.

No one will be able to reason with Putin, he refuses to take any of the soft landings being provided to him. Whatever tactics the West is using now are geared towards influencing/pressuring the more rational layers of elites that surround him. This needs to be dealt with, no more head in the sand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

One of the downsides of the long involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is that some Americans have no stomach for engagement or involvement even when there are legitimate threats. I'm curious whether anything other than a direct attack on your neighborhood would be your problem or worth any sacrifice.

I mean, historically this is not an outlier opinion. I think we are in an isolationist period in the US right now. Every once in awhile someone pipes up about our exit from Afghanistan, but honestly no one actually cares. It's a political talking point - and we lost 13 soldiers! People are starving to death in Afghanistan right now and we all have collective amnesia that we were there for 20 years.

The US was barely involved in WW I and didn't enter WW II until directly attacked. Strategically, that's probably what allowed the Allies to win, but there was plenty of isolationism in 1939.

I do think we should be concerned that Putin deliberately attacks/provokes NATO once he realizes that NATO and the EU are unilaterally united against him. You should want to sacrifice with high gas prices, etc. to avoid that. Because once that happens, you may well see your spouse or child drafted.

You’re not serious about life. Do you think Putin doesn’t know that NATO and the EU are his mortal enemies already? Literally nothing in your post makes proactively seeking war with Russia remotely sensible. I’m not going to trouble myself about Eastern Europe until there’s a reason to do so.

There's actually been a lot of discussion this past week about how the EU has emerged as a singular power and how Putin was not prepare for that show of unity.

These are bad and stupid analyses. The former head of the FSB, the successor agency to the KGB, who was a spy, survived the fall of the soviet union, and has ruled a country as ruthless and cutthroat as Russia for over two decades is somehow not savvy enough to see that Europeans who hate him might together? You’re mistaking him for someone as stupid as you!

I think we can merge the two theories about Putin's degrading paranoia and his erstwhile cunning planning. He had a master plan all along, however due to increased paranoia due to isolation and age, and his well-known pre-existing obsession about Greater Russia humiliating the West, he is not able to accurately assess other countries' reactions anymore. The two are coming together to create our current catastrophe.

PP here. I’ll give it to you. This is a sensible take. The idea that Putin just never had any capacity to understand Europe is so stupid that I can’t take it seriously. Your more nuanced take makes sense. I think it’s a wrong take nonetheless. I don’t think Putin just happened to age overnight and become this doddering, paranoid buffoon whom Americans sitting on DCUM can think around. I think what’s a lot more likely is that we don’t know what exactly he wants from Ukraine. That’s why his actions look irrational. That doesn’t mean his actions are actually irrational. It just means that we have failed at intelligence gathering.

DP. We do know what he wants from "the Ukraine". He wants it back.

The pandemic has made everyone crazy. Adults here, children here, adults there. The pandemic has made Putin crazy. He doesn't have some secret sneaky plan. He's just irrational.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

Tell me you're a Trumper without saying so.

See, this is a major part of why we have no business getting into war with Russia. Our nation is littered with cretins like you who hallucinate Trump everywhere. I’m a Democrat. A lifelong Democrat. And I don’t think it’s my business to go worrying about people halfway around the world when I share a country with people like you. You’re a much bigger problem.

I guess you don't understand we live in a globally connected community of nations.

Gotcha. That was news to me. Thank you, Captain Obvious. How exactly does any of that suggest we should go fighting someone who has nukes? When is the last time the US went to war with a country that had nukes? You don’t think there’s a reason we avoid such confrontations?

DP. Someone who has nukes and has threatened to use them unless their aggressive demands are met, can NEVER be appeased. You will never be able to avoid a confrontation with Putin, the only question is when.

OK, so nuclear holocaust is inevitable then. I might as well enjoy my coffee and drive my gas guzzler to my vacation home. If the end is nigh, I’m not going to go rushing towards it with bloodshot eyes screaming some nonsense about moral obligations to Ukraine.

You don't seem to be able to read the room. This is not about a moral obligation to Ukraine, this is much bigger than Ukraine.

No one will be able to reason with Putin, he refuses to take any of the soft landings being provided to him. Whatever tactics the West is using now are geared towards influencing/pressuring the more rational layers of elites that surround him. This needs to be dealt with, no more head in the sand.

THIS. Anybody who doesn’t get that this is much bigger than one country ( that most of you have only just found on a map for the first time last month) is a fool. This is a show of force to get those around Putin to do something about him. For the U.S., this is also about China. The Chinese government is watching us very carefully.

I’m humble enough to say I don’t know how exactly the Ukraine invasion should be handled, but I do at least recognize it’s a situation that goes beyond two countries duking it out.

[Anonymous]

The Chinese are the only ones who can stop this now. Putin went to China, paid proper deference to Xi and his Olympics, made a gas deal, and likely got assurances that the Chinese wouldn't take advantage of the fact that Russia had move forces from their Eastern frontier to Ukraine.

This morning the Chinese are making some hopeful noises:

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:We have tried to give Putin off ramp for weeks. For months,
He is sending in troops to kill civilians.
F this guy.
I just read a good piece by Fiona Hill, and she breaks it down.
We can’t be paralyzed by fear. We have to anticipate and move to act.

We have acted and all Putin does is escalate. I’m not sure what additional actions you mean?

What's the alternative, just let Putin keep conquering and destabilizing? This needs to come to an end, and that end cannot mean Putin winning.

Cut off his money supply - which is oil. Stop buying oil from Russia and sanction sales.
And, give Ukraine more lethal weapons to give them at least a chance.

The sanctions are meaningless if they don’t include energy. Oil production and exports from Russia have not slowed since the invasion started. Do people realize this? If we want to help Ukraine we need to stop consuming so much gas and be prepared to pay high prices at the pump.

Or, we could actually increase our supply and help out Europe by providing the oil that they have bought from Russia.
And, we need to stop buying oil from Russia.....

Well, we knew this to be true. What was especially shameful was the unwillingness to stop even after Putin invaded Ukraine, trying to assure the public that these sections won't impact energy prices. I am critical of Biden taking us back to energy dependence on foreign sources but I would have gladly met the consequences of cutting off Russian oil flow. They are so tone deaf.

How exactly did Biden take “us back to energy dependence on foreign sources “? And which foreign sources are these?

Yes, I know about Google, but assertions like that really need to be supported with specifics— if they’re going to be taken seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read all of this monster thread, but the selfish Democrat who is being quoted at the top of page 162 (the one who calls her opponents "cretins") is disgusting.

I say this as a Bernie Sanders supporter, as someone who considers herself borderline-socialist.

You are a person with absolutely no principles. You don't care if other brave souls are suffering, as long as you can enjoy your wine and peaceful, bright skies here in the U.S.

If we don't die from Russia's nukes we are going to die from a climate apocalypse, genius. It's going to be a rough century one way or another. May as well learn to live with integrity and values during the time we have left.

Or, you know, just say the oppression of other countries isn't your problem and you don't feel very bad about it either.

As if Russia is going to stop with Ukraine. As if Putin doesn't know that "Americans" like you exist. As if China isn't watching all of this.

Honestly, people like this cretin Democrat should be the first to be sacrificed in a war or in a nuclear apocalypse. I have no use for cowards, nor any respect for them.

OMG, thank you. ALL OF THIS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read all of this monster thread, but the selfish Democrat who is being quoted at the top of page 162 (the one who calls her opponents "cretins") is disgusting.

I say this as a Bernie Sanders supporter, as someone who considers herself borderline-socialist.

You are a person with absolutely no principles. You don't care if other brave souls are suffering, as long as you can enjoy your wine and peaceful, bright skies here in the U.S.

If we don't die from Russia's nukes we are going to die from a climate apocalypse, genius. It's going to be a rough century one way or another. May as well learn to live with integrity and values during the time we have left.

Or, you know, just say the oppression of other countries isn't your problem and you don't feel very bad about it either.

As if Russia is going to stop with Ukraine. As if Putin doesn't know that "Americans" like you exist. As if China isn't watching all of this.

Honestly, people like this cretin Democrat should be the first to be sacrificed in a war or in a nuclear apocalypse. I have no use for cowards, nor any respect for them.

Another American socialist here. We are usually the first to recognize how futile war is, and how it feeds a corrupt industrial military complex, but I agree with this. I'm certainly not advocating that the U.S. declare war against Russia right now, but I think that we have to realize that if we sit here, being cowed by the threat of nukes, then Putin is going to use that threat as a cover to help him advance across all of Europe and eventually to our borders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have tried to give Putin off ramp for weeks. For months,
He is sending in troops to kill civilians.
F this guy.
I just read a good piece by Fiona Hill, and she breaks it down.
We can’t be paralyzed by fear. We have to anticipate and move to act.

We have acted and all Putin does is escalate. I’m not sure what additional actions you mean?

What's the alternative, just let Putin keep conquering and destabilizing? This needs to come to an end, and that end cannot mean Putin winning.

Cut off his money supply - which is oil. Stop buying oil from Russia and sanction sales.
And, give Ukraine more lethal weapons to give them at least a chance.

The sanctions are meaningless if they don’t include energy. Oil production and exports from Russia have not slowed since the invasion started. Do people realize this? If we want to help Ukraine we need to stop consuming so much gas and be prepared to pay high prices at the pump.

Or, we could actually increase our supply and help out Europe by providing the oil that they have bought from Russia.
And, we need to stop buying oil from Russia.....

Well, we knew this to be true. What was especially shameful was the unwillingness to stop even after Putin invaded Ukraine, trying to assure the public that these sections won't impact energy prices. I am critical of Biden taking us back to energy dependence on foreign sources but I would have gladly met the consequences of cutting off Russian oil flow. They are so tone deaf.

How exactly did Biden take “us back to energy dependence on foreign sources “? And which foreign sources are these?

Yes, I know about Google, but assertions like that really need to be supported with specifics— if they’re going to be taken seriously.

Republicans want to drill on federal lands and restart the Keystone pipeline.

[Anonymous]

OK, so nuclear holocaust is inevitable then. I might as well enjoy my coffee and drive my gas guzzler to my vacation home. If the end is nigh, I’m not going to go rushing towards it with bloodshot eyes screaming some nonsense about moral obligations to Ukraine.

It's like you're both stupid and morally bankrupt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read all of this monster thread, but the selfish Democrat who is being quoted at the top of page 162 (the one who calls her opponents "cretins") is disgusting.

I say this as a Bernie Sanders supporter, as someone who considers herself borderline-socialist.

You are a person with absolutely no principles. You don't care if other brave souls are suffering, as long as you can enjoy your wine and peaceful, bright skies here in the U.S.

If we don't die from Russia's nukes we are going to die from a climate apocalypse, genius. It's going to be a rough century one way or another. May as well learn to live with integrity and values during the time we have left.

Or, you know, just say the oppression of other countries isn't your problem and you don't feel very bad about it either.

As if Russia is going to stop with Ukraine. As if Putin doesn't know that "Americans" like you exist. As if China isn't watching all of this.

Honestly, people like this cretin Democrat should be the first to be sacrificed in a war or in a nuclear apocalypse. I have no use for cowards, nor any respect for them.

Another American socialist here. We are usually the first to recognize how futile war is, and how it feeds a corrupt industrial military complex, but I agree with this. I'm certainly not advocating that the U.S. declare war against Russia right now, but I think that we have to realize that if we sit here, being cowed by the threat of nukes, then Putin is going to use that threat as a cover to help him advance across all of Europe and eventually to our borders.

+1

And tbh I have a couple friends who are veterans of Afghanistan, who are impatient to fight for Ukraine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

OK, so nuclear holocaust is inevitable then. I might as well enjoy my coffee and drive my gas guzzler to my vacation home. If the end is nigh, I’m not going to go rushing towards it with bloodshot eyes screaming some nonsense about moral obligations to Ukraine.

It's like you're both stupid and morally bankrupt.

I think they are genuinely ( and understandably) scared. Now I feel sort of bad about writing a mean post re: what would happen to them if DC was hit.
It’s hard to not have control. Those of us typing here truly are at the mercy of our leaders.
Sure it was true a few weeks ago, but the threat of nuclear war changes your perspective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

OK, so nuclear holocaust is inevitable then. I might as well enjoy my coffee and drive my gas guzzler to my vacation home. If the end is nigh, I’m not going to go rushing towards it with bloodshot eyes screaming some nonsense about moral obligations to Ukraine.

It's like you're both stupid and morally bankrupt.

No, no, no. Angry keyboard warrior knows the difference between SOLDIERS and MARINES. He knows it all!