US has no good options in Ukraine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:We have tried to give Putin off ramp for weeks. For months,
He is sending in troops to kill civilians.
F this guy.
I just read a good piece by Fiona Hill, and she breaks it down.
We can’t be paralyzed by fear. We have to anticipate and move to act.

We have acted and all Putin does is escalate. I’m not sure what additional actions you mean?

What's the alternative, just let Putin keep conquering and destabilizing? This needs to come to an end, and that end cannot mean Putin winning.

Cut off his money supply - which is oil. Stop buying oil from Russia and sanction sales.
And, give Ukraine more lethal weapons to give them at least a chance.

The sanctions are meaningless if they don’t include energy. Oil production and exports from Russia have not slowed since the invasion started. Do people realize this? If we want to help Ukraine we need to stop consuming so much gas and be prepared to pay high prices at the pump.

Or, we could actually increase our supply and help out Europe by providing the oil that they have bought from Russia.
And, we need to stop buying oil from Russia.....

Well, we knew this to be true. What was especially shameful was the unwillingness to stop even after Putin invaded Ukraine, trying to assure the public that these sections won't impact energy prices. I am critical of Biden taking us back to energy dependence on foreign sources but I would have gladly met the consequences of cutting off Russian oil flow. They are so tone deaf.

How exactly did Biden take “us back to energy dependence on foreign sources “? And which foreign sources are these?

Yes, I know about Google, but assertions like that really need to be supported with specifics— if they’re going to be taken seriously.

Republicans want to drill on federal lands and restart the Keystone pipeline.

There are plenty of non-Federal lands to drill on. Keystone won't process fuel for vehicles and isn't even built. I'd don't buy any of these arguments because none of these actions would lower oil prices or inflation today. Or even next year.

You know what wrecked America's energy production? COVID-19, when oil was selling for negative dollars for first time in recorded history. Also, the huge amount of Boomers retiring and people dying from COVID which is leading to labor shortages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have tried to give Putin off ramp for weeks. For months,
He is sending in troops to kill civilians.
F this guy.
I just read a good piece by Fiona Hill, and she breaks it down.
We can’t be paralyzed by fear. We have to anticipate and move to act.

We have acted and all Putin does is escalate. I’m not sure what additional actions you mean?

What's the alternative, just let Putin keep conquering and destabilizing? This needs to come to an end, and that end cannot mean Putin winning.

Cut off his money supply - which is oil. Stop buying oil from Russia and sanction sales.
And, give Ukraine more lethal weapons to give them at least a chance.

The sanctions are meaningless if they don’t include energy. Oil production and exports from Russia have not slowed since the invasion started. Do people realize this? If we want to help Ukraine we need to stop consuming so much gas and be prepared to pay high prices at the pump.

Or, we could actually increase our supply and help out Europe by providing the oil that they have bought from Russia.
And, we need to stop buying oil from Russia.....

Well, we knew this to be true. What was especially shameful was the unwillingness to stop even after Putin invaded Ukraine, trying to assure the public that these sections won't impact energy prices. I am critical of Biden taking us back to energy dependence on foreign sources but I would have gladly met the consequences of cutting off Russian oil flow. They are so tone deaf.

How exactly did Biden take “us back to energy dependence on foreign sources “? And which foreign sources are these?

Yes, I know about Google, but assertions like that really need to be supported with specifics— if they’re going to be taken seriously.

Republicans want to drill on federal lands and restart the Keystone pipeline.

There are plenty of non-Federal lands to drill on. Keystone won't process fuel for vehicles and isn't even built yet. I'd don't buy any of these arguments because none of these actions would lower oil prices or inflation today. Or even next year.

You know what wrecked America's energy production? COVID-19, when oil was selling for negative dollars for first time in recorded history. Also, the huge amount of Boomers retiring and people dying from COVID which is leading to labor shortages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have tried to give Putin off ramp for weeks. For months,
He is sending in troops to kill civilians.
F this guy.
I just read a good piece by Fiona Hill, and she breaks it down.
We can’t be paralyzed by fear. We have to anticipate and move to act.

We have acted and all Putin does is escalate. I’m not sure what additional actions you mean?

What's the alternative, just let Putin keep conquering and destabilizing? This needs to come to an end, and that end cannot mean Putin winning.

Cut off his money supply - which is oil. Stop buying oil from Russia and sanction sales.
And, give Ukraine more lethal weapons to give them at least a chance.

The sanctions are meaningless if they don’t include energy. Oil production and exports from Russia have not slowed since the invasion started. Do people realize this? If we want to help Ukraine we need to stop consuming so much gas and be prepared to pay high prices at the pump.

Or, we could actually increase our supply and help out Europe by providing the oil that they have bought from Russia.
And, we need to stop buying oil from Russia.....

Well, we knew this to be true. What was especially shameful was the unwillingness to stop even after Putin invaded Ukraine, trying to assure the public that these sections won't impact energy prices. I am critical of Biden taking us back to energy dependence on foreign sources but I would have gladly met the consequences of cutting off Russian oil flow. They are so tone deaf.

How exactly did Biden take “us back to energy dependence on foreign sources “? And which foreign sources are these?

Yes, I know about Google, but assertions like that really need to be supported with specifics— if they’re going to be taken seriously.

Republicans want to drill on federal lands and restart the Keystone pipeline.

There are plenty of non-Federal lands to drill on. Keystone won't process fuel for vehicles and isn't even built yet. I'd don't buy any of these arguments because none of these actions would lower oil prices or inflation today. Or even next year.

You know what wrecked America's energy production? COVID-19, when oil was selling for negative dollars for first time in recorded history. Also, the huge amount of Boomers retiring and people dying from COVID which is leading to labor shortages.

there is NO labor shortage. Stop with the republican propaganda.

We have 30 million people out of work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read all of this monster thread, but the selfish Democrat who is being quoted at the top of page 162 (the one who calls her opponents "cretins") is disgusting.

I say this as a Bernie Sanders supporter, as someone who considers herself borderline-socialist.

You are a person with absolutely no principles. You don't care if other brave souls are suffering, as long as you can enjoy your wine and peaceful, bright skies here in the U.S.

If we don't die from Russia's nukes we are going to die from a climate apocalypse, genius. It's going to be a rough century one way or another. May as well learn to live with integrity and values during the time we have left.

Or, you know, just say the oppression of other countries isn't your problem and you don't feel very bad about it either.

As if Russia is going to stop with Ukraine. As if Putin doesn't know that "Americans" like you exist. As if China isn't watching all of this.

Honestly, people like this cretin Democrat should be the first to be sacrificed in a war or in a nuclear apocalypse. I have no use for cowards, nor any respect for them.

+ 100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OK, so nuclear holocaust is inevitable then. I might as well enjoy my coffee and drive my gas guzzler to my vacation home. If the end is nigh, I’m not going to go rushing towards it with bloodshot eyes screaming some nonsense about moral obligations to Ukraine.

It's like you're both stupid and morally bankrupt.

No, no, no. Angry keyboard warrior knows the difference between SOLDIERS and MARINES. He knows it all!

PP with the vacation home here. I’m not the one who made the point about soldiers and marines. You are so daft that it almost hurts me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OK, so nuclear holocaust is inevitable then. I might as well enjoy my coffee and drive my gas guzzler to my vacation home. If the end is nigh, I’m not going to go rushing towards it with bloodshot eyes screaming some nonsense about moral obligations to Ukraine.

It's like you're both stupid and morally bankrupt.

I think they are genuinely ( and understandably) scared. Now I feel sort of bad about writing a mean post re: what would happen to them if DC was hit.
It’s hard to not have control. Those of us typing here truly are at the mercy of our leaders.
Sure it was true a few weeks ago, but the threat of nuclear war changes your perspective.

PP with the vacation home here. Unlike most Americans, I know the limitations of my control over any situation. I control what I can and tune out the rest. You all can stroke out over Ukraine and see what good it does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

Enjoy your upcoming nuclear winter.

A nuclear winter that wouldn’t happen if the US and Western Europe didn’t go sticking their noses into a conflict they have no place in and cannot control. The time to do something was before Putin invaded. Having failed to stop him, we need to eat this loss and keep it moving. Anyone who thinks the way to avoid a nuclear war is to attack a country that will not hesitate to use nukes is a damn fool and should be sent to the frontlines to die first.

Putin did this. We didn't. This is the exact same appeasement argument that was made in 1939. Some things are worth fighting for.

Hitler didn’t have nukes, you dumbo.

So if Hitler had nukes we should have just given him the world? That doesnt make sense

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

Tell me you're a Trumper without saying so.

See, this is a major part of why we have no business getting into war with Russia. Our nation is littered with cretins like you who hallucinate Trump everywhere. I’m a Democrat. A lifelong Democrat. And I don’t think it’s my business to go worrying about people halfway around the world when I share a country with people like you. You’re a much bigger problem.

Dp- it’s understandable that they made an assumption. You are not well informed and have limited understanding of this conflict.

Please educate me as to how we make it out alive from a war with someone who has nukes and has literally said that he will use them and is ruthless enough for that threat to be very credible. I’ll wait.

How do we make it out alive either way?

[Anonymous]

If this is true this may not drag on as I thought it would.

Read into the thread - there's another post with an account of what happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Getting India onboard is easy —

But the us won’t do it.

Cut off Pakistan ties, fund India 50 billion a year in arms sales (Israel gets 30+ billion…India needs more if you want quad to be successful).

If the us cannot plug in russian weapon systems for India, India will chart a non-aligned path.

Remember — quad is extremely important for the us. Us will not burn India over Russian posture.

This isn't a buy support scenario. India is playing a dangerous game. I get that they are just replaying their cold war playbook and that Putin held a meeting with Imran Khan on the forst day of the invasion. It's morally reprehensible but it is what it is. India should be taking note of how bad Russian weapons and systems are doing. It's been an asbolutely humiliating product demonstration. The new axis will be China/Russia versus North America/Europe/East Asia. It's going to be hard to thread the needle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If this is true this may not drag on as I thought it would.

Read into the thread - there's another post with an account of what happened.

Seems that some articles on this are calling it a Putiny on board the ships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting India onboard is easy —

But the us won’t do it.

Cut off Pakistan ties, fund India 50 billion a year in arms sales (Israel gets 30+ billion…India needs more if you want quad to be successful).

If the us cannot plug in russian weapon systems for India, India will chart a non-aligned path.

Remember — quad is extremely important for the us. Us will not burn India over Russian posture.

This isn't a buy support scenario. India is playing a dangerous game. I get that they are just replaying their cold war playbook and that Putin held a meeting with Imran Khan on the forst day of the invasion. It's morally reprehensible but it is what it is. India should be taking note of how bad Russian weapons and systems are doing. It's been an asbolutely humiliating product demonstration. The new axis will be China/Russia versus North America/Europe/East Asia. It's going to be hard to thread the needle.

No, the U.S. has been playing a stupid and arrogant game with India. Who armed and paid and supported Pakistan (and, by extension, Pakistani terrorism in Kashmir) during the Cold War? Who undermined India's interests at every turn for literally years until the War on Terror?
It was the U.S.

If you want Indian support, show it and do exactly what the previous PP said. Stop supporting Pakistani terrorism in Kashmir. Stop supporting Pakistan - the country that sheltered bin Laden - at all, period. India does not owe the U.S. anything.

[Anonymous]

Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons on assurances of security from the West. The message should be clear to all other countries in Eastern and Central Europe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

One of the downsides of the long involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is that some Americans have no stomach for engagement or involvement even when there are legitimate threats. I'm curious whether anything other than a direct attack on your neighborhood would be your problem or worth any sacrifice.

I mean, historically this is not an outlier opinion. I think we are in an isolationist period in the US right now. Every once in awhile someone pipes up about our exit from Afghanistan, but honestly no one actually cares. It's a political talking point - and we lost 13 soldiers! People are starving to death in Afghanistan right now and we all have collective amnesia that we were there for 20 years.

The US was barely involved in WW I and didn't enter WW II until directly attacked. Strategically, that's probably what allowed the Allies to win, but there was plenty of isolationism in 1939.

I do think we should be concerned that Putin deliberately attacks/provokes NATO once he realizes that NATO and the EU are unilaterally united against him. You should want to sacrifice with high gas prices, etc. to avoid that. Because once that happens, you may well see your spouse or child drafted.

You’re not serious about life. Do you think Putin doesn’t know that NATO and the EU are his mortal enemies already? Literally nothing in your post makes proactively seeking war with Russia remotely sensible. I’m not going to trouble myself about Eastern Europe until there’s a reason to do so.

There's actually been a lot of discussion this past week about how the EU has emerged as a singular power and how Putin was not prepare for that show of unity.

These are bad and stupid analyses. The former head of the FSB, the successor agency to the KGB, who was a spy, survived the fall of the soviet union, and has ruled a country as ruthless and cutthroat as Russia for over two decades is somehow not savvy enough to see that Europeans who hate him might together? You’re mistaking him for someone as stupid as you!

I think we can merge the two theories about Putin's degrading paranoia and his erstwhile cunning planning. He had a master plan all along, however due to increased paranoia due to isolation and age, and his well-known pre-existing obsession about Greater Russia humiliating the West, he is not able to accurately assess other countries' reactions anymore. The two are coming together to create our current catastrophe.

PP here. I’ll give it to you. This is a sensible take. The idea that Putin just never had any capacity to understand Europe is so stupid that I can’t take it seriously. Your more nuanced take makes sense. I think it’s a wrong take nonetheless. I don’t think Putin just happened to age overnight and become this doddering, paranoid buffoon whom Americans sitting on DCUM can think around. I think what’s a lot more likely is that we don’t know what exactly he wants from Ukraine. That’s why his actions look irrational. That doesn’t mean his actions are actually irrational. It just means that we have failed at intelligence gathering.

PP you replied to. George W. Bush describes his meetings, years ago, with Putin, as talking to "an 8th grader with his facts wrong". Obama recalls long phone conversations where Putin had long lists of historically-inaccurate grievances. Macron just last week had an in-person meeting that was more than 5 hours longs, consisting mainly of Putin monologuing for 5 hours and rewriting 20th century history. I think Putin's mental state has been progressively getting worse, and I believe that the pandemic and subsequent isolation perhaps accelerated the natural process.

I am not a historian nor an international affairs specialist, but I know something about mental health. There is a fine, fine line between the logical processes of a highly intelligent person and the logical processes of that person when they cannot weigh risks and costs as they used to. On the surface, Putin is extremely logical: he wants to unify Russian-adjacent lands into a Greater Russia and restore his country to its former days of glory (when it was an empire and the Russian elite was all-powerful, but the people were incredibly poor peasants). It's "Make Russia Great Again", but with a much more competent person at the helm than our home-grown version.

The current crisis may lead to WWIII because Putin seems ready to use all force necessary, regardless of the reputational and financial cost to himself and Russian citizens. A few years ago, he would not have made this calculation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting India onboard is easy —

But the us won’t do it.

Cut off Pakistan ties, fund India 50 billion a year in arms sales (Israel gets 30+ billion…India needs more if you want quad to be successful).

If the us cannot plug in russian weapon systems for India, India will chart a non-aligned path.

Remember — quad is extremely important for the us. Us will not burn India over Russian posture.

This isn't a buy support scenario. India is playing a dangerous game. I get that they are just replaying their cold war playbook and that Putin held a meeting with Imran Khan on the forst day of the invasion. It's morally reprehensible but it is what it is. India should be taking note of how bad Russian weapons and systems are doing. It's been an asbolutely humiliating product demonstration. The new axis will be China/Russia versus North America/Europe/East Asia. It's going to be hard to thread the needle.

No, the U.S. has been playing a stupid and arrogant game with India. Who armed and paid and supported Pakistan (and, by extension, Pakistani terrorism in Kashmir) during the Cold War? Who undermined India's interests at every turn for literally years until the War on Terror?
It was the U.S.

If you want Indian support, show it and do exactly what the previous PP said. Stop supporting Pakistani terrorism in Kashmir. Stop supporting Pakistan - the country that sheltered bin Laden - at all, period. India does not owe the U.S. anything.

Um no. This isn't about the United States. India is going to have a choice to make, as is every country. This is about Dharma.

And for what it's worth, Pakistan is playing an even more dangerous game but is pretty much already on the other side. Why else was Imran Khan in Moscow meeting with Putin as the invasion started?