Sanders is the real feminist in this race

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I understand that gun control is an important topic but do you think you could start your own thread on this? You have posted tons of information and I, the OP, have agreed that stricter gun regulations would be a positive move for women and men. It has been covered.

No, I think Sanders' support for the gun industry and his opposition to many gun safety measures are highly relevant to this thread.

Your whole "feminist" argument against Clinton is a thinly stretched string of circumstances: Hillary was married to a man who signed legislation from Congress, which then led to certain economic effects that some people, 20 years later, have said had some negative impacts on women in various locations. With Sanders, we see his actual gun votes in Congress leading to connections to women dying in Vermont, and all over the United States. If your "evidence" is relevant to looking at Clinton, then the gun evidence is certainly relevant to looking at Sanders.

In fact, the thread's title says it's about Bernie Sanders, not Hillary Clinton. So I think your posts about Hillary are the ones that don't belong. My posts about Sanders' poor gun record of choosing the NRA over women are much more on-topic.

Also, did anyone mention that Hillary Clinton is endorsed by the following notable women:

Lilly Ledbetter
Gloria Steinem
current and former presidents of NOW
current president of NARAL
current president of Planned Parenthood

If Bernie Sanders is the "real feminist" in this race, why aren't these other feminists supporting him?

I have been very disappointed in Gloria Steinem, regarding this race. She actually said that young women were supporting Sanders because that is "where the boys are." I was stunned to see a comment like that from a feminist.

You are entitled to your opinion that gun control is a make or break issue for a candidate. I just think there are some other issues which need to be addressed first and Sanders is a supporter of background checks and other gun regulations. The NRA gave him a D minus rating...

I think that you yourself are greatly minimizing Clinton's contribution and influence as first lady if you can state that she was "married to a man who..." Hillary Clinton worked hard for that policy and you should at least give her credit for her hard work.

Okay. So you dismissed Steinem. How about the others? You know better than them too?

That is a weird argument. I am supposed to blindly follow the opinions of the presidents of NOW, NARAL, and PP? Do you know that there are are far more influential feminist thinkers out there? Those are big organizations but they do not dictate the opinions of feminists everywhere. They are voices in the discussion certainly but there are many that I would look to before I would look to them.

Never said anything about "blindly following". You addressed Steinem by dismissing her credibility. You didn't address the others. Now you've dismissed them as well. I think all of them have tremendous credibility and your need to dismiss them to cling to your "Hillary's not a feminist" stance makes your stance quite laughable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have been very disappointed in Gloria Steinem, regarding this race. She actually said that young women were supporting Sanders because that is "where the boys are." I was stunned to see a comment like that from a feminist.

With all due respect, I think Gloria Steinem and all the other women who have endorsed Hillary Clinton have a stronger record on knowing and promoting feminism than anyone on this thread, so I'll have to trust their opinions.

You are entitled to your opinion that gun control is a make or break issue for a candidate. I just think there are some other issues which need to be addressed first and Sanders is a supporter of background checks and other gun regulations. The NRA gave him a D minus rating...
IIRC, the NRA's ranking has ranged from D- to C-, depending on the year. It's undeniable that Sanders was helped into office by the NRA, and he's voted their way on several pieces of legislation. And for what it's worth, gun safety is not a "make or break" issue for me. It's just one of many reasons why I think Bernie Sanders is not a valid option for President.

I think that you yourself are greatly minimizing Clinton's contribution and influence as first lady if you can state that she was "married to a man who..." Hillary Clinton worked hard for that policy and you should at least give her credit for her hard work.

I'm absolutely not minimizing her role and her contributions in many efforts to help women and girls around the world. IIRC, other posters have cited some of those efforts for you several pages ago. But you dismissed them all, and relentlessly focused this thread on TPP, NAFTA, CAFTA. Well, Clinton wasn't the person elected President when that legislation arrived at the White House, and she did not have the Presidential pen. We'll see what she does when she gets that pen in January 2017. I hope Senator Sanders will join with the Democrats to pass some legislation that might reach her desk.

I have not dismissed Clinton's contributions. I have said that she has done some good things but her record is a very mixed bag which does not add up to a consistently pro-woman candidate and she has also contributed to legislation that has been very harmful to women. If you want to follow Steinem go right ahead but there are a lot of feminists who are not very happy with her right now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I understand that gun control is an important topic but do you think you could start your own thread on this? You have posted tons of information and I, the OP, have agreed that stricter gun regulations would be a positive move for women and men. It has been covered.

No, I think Sanders' support for the gun industry and his opposition to many gun safety measures are highly relevant to this thread.

Your whole "feminist" argument against Clinton is a thinly stretched string of circumstances: Hillary was married to a man who signed legislation from Congress, which then led to certain economic effects that some people, 20 years later, have said had some negative impacts on women in various locations. With Sanders, we see his actual gun votes in Congress leading to connections to women dying in Vermont, and all over the United States. If your "evidence" is relevant to looking at Clinton, then the gun evidence is certainly relevant to looking at Sanders.

In fact, the thread's title says it's about Bernie Sanders, not Hillary Clinton. So I think your posts about Hillary are the ones that don't belong. My posts about Sanders' poor gun record of choosing the NRA over women are much more on-topic.

Also, did anyone mention that Hillary Clinton is endorsed by the following notable women:

Lilly Ledbetter
Gloria Steinem
current and former presidents of NOW
current president of NARAL
current president of Planned Parenthood

If Bernie Sanders is the "real feminist" in this race, why aren't these other feminists supporting him?

I have been very disappointed in Gloria Steinem, regarding this race. She actually said that young women were supporting Sanders because that is "where the boys are." I was stunned to see a comment like that from a feminist.

You are entitled to your opinion that gun control is a make or break issue for a candidate. I just think there are some other issues which need to be addressed first and Sanders is a supporter of background checks and other gun regulations. The NRA gave him a D minus rating...

I think that you yourself are greatly minimizing Clinton's contribution and influence as first lady if you can state that she was "married to a man who..." Hillary Clinton worked hard for that policy and you should at least give her credit for her hard work.

Okay. So you dismissed Steinem. How about the others? You know better than them too?

That is a weird argument. I am supposed to blindly follow the opinions of the presidents of NOW, NARAL, and PP? Do you know that there are are far more influential feminist thinkers out there? Those are big organizations but they do not dictate the opinions of feminists everywhere. They are voices in the discussion certainly but there are many that I would look to before I would look to them.

Never said anything about "blindly following". You addressed Steinem by dismissing her credibility. You didn't address the others. Now you've dismissed them as well. I think all of them have tremendous credibility and your need to dismiss them to cling to your "Hillary's not a feminist" stance makes your stance quite laughable.

Sigh... I did not dismiss them. They do some great work for women. But there are many other feminists who disagree with their support for Clinton.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I think that you yourself are greatly minimizing Clinton's contribution and influence as first lady if you can state that she was "married to a man who..." Hillary Clinton worked hard for that policy and you should at least give her credit for her hard work.

I'm absolutely not minimizing her role and her contributions in many efforts to help women and girls around the world. IIRC, other posters have cited some of those efforts for you several pages ago. But you dismissed them all, and relentlessly focused this thread on TPP, NAFTA, CAFTA. Well, Clinton wasn't the person elected President when that legislation arrived at the White House, and she did not have the Presidential pen. We'll see what she does when she gets that pen in January 2017. I hope Senator Sanders will join with the Democrats to pass some legislation that might reach her desk.

I have not dismissed Clinton's contributions. I have said that she has done some good things but her record is a very mixed bag which does not add up to a consistently pro-woman candidate and she has also contributed to legislation that has been very harmful to women. If you want to follow Steinem go right ahead but there are a lot of feminists who are not very happy with her right now.

Oh yes, you did dismiss them. I was not a participant in that part of the thread, but I watched you do it. http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/546132.page

Two or three women who work on these issues day in and day out gave you loads of thoughtful detail about what Clinton has done. You blew it off as "gave a nice speech."

But when they asked for evidence of what Sanders has done, you offered nothing concrete.

[Anonymous]

I will repost my comments from that part of the thread because I think they were fair and not dismissive. You can tell me where I have dismissed her actual accomplishments. I am tempted to edit a bit but I will not.

I believe I am making legitimate points and I am not saying that she has not done anything for women at all. Her speech in Beijing was powerful and I think it did have an impact. I also think she has been strong on Planned Parenthood. I am not particularly impressed with the rest. I suppose the fact that I used the phrase "of the world" led some PPs to claim that I offered nothing concrete on Sanders but that is not the case. He has been an advocate of poor and disadvantaged women for his entire career but he has not had the opportunity to work on a world stage as Clinton has. And in that regard, I see many missed opportunities on HRC's part.

"I don't know... For me, between her championing of welfare reform which had dire effects on poor women and children; and her willingness to receive money for her family foundation from countries which severely oppress women such as: Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates, Clinton does not appear to be a great champion of women's rights. I was just reading this article about her time spent as Secretary of State and all of her missed opportunities to help women around the world. This does not look like a great record on women's issues to me. Sanders has a very solid voting record and, once again, I can't point to one moment in his entire career when he missed an opportunity to advocate for women. Granted he did not have the world opportunities of a Secretary of State."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp...really-do-for-oppressed-women/


"I don't know where you are getting your "facts" about welfare reform but HRC fervently campaigned for her husband's welfare reform policy and even referred to it as "a success" as late as 2008. You don't get to change the facts just because you don't like them. "

"She did give a nice speech in Beijing but that was 20 years ago and all I can see are her missed opportunities since then. She speaks out of both sides of her mouth. If she can speak out against the mistreatment of women by the Taliban, why won't she speak out against the mistreatment of women by U.S. supported regimes as well? She is an advocate for women and children when it suits her just like everything else she does. She speaks out of both sides of her mouth."

"I have not trashed her entire record. I have said she has been consistent on Planned Parenthood and she made a very nice speech in Beijing. As far as the rest of her feminist credentials, I am not impressed because of the major contradictions. I am not hurting any other candidate by saying that there are major issues with Clinton. I am not a Bernie bro or whatever you want to call me. I do like him a lot but I don't think he is perfect. I am still free to say that Clinton is not a feminist. "


"The title of the thread is "Sanders is the real feminist in this race." I stand by that statement. I believe that Clinton is a feminist only when it suits her politically. You are free to disagree, of course, and the issue is partially one of semantics. How do you define "feminist?" I believe that a "feminist" politician has a responsibility to defend and support poor women and other disadvantaged women of the world. It is not just about when it is politically convenient."

[Anonymous]

15:22, repeating your quotes from earlier in the thread does not make them any more persuasive.

1. Clinton's strong support for women. Women who work in the field of women's issues posted long, thoughtful commentary and specific examples of Hillary Clinton's work on behalf of women and girls. You say she gave a "nice speech" in Beijing and you're happy she supports Planned Parenthood. But you refused to give her credit for any of the other examples. Your criticism seems to boil down to (1) she could have done even more, (2) the Clinton Foundation charity accepted money from Saudi Arabia and other countries, and (3) your constant refrain of NAFTA & welfare reform.

2. Sanders' non-existent record on women's issues. You say he has a strong record on women's issues, and you say you "can't point to one moment in his entire career when he missed an opportunity to advocate for women." Well, there's a lot more you haven't pointed to: such as one single specific thing Sanders has accomplished for women. I'm not saying he's never done anything; I'm sure there is something in his record we could find. But you certainly haven't given us anything except vague and unsupported claims that he's strong on women's issues.

At this point, I think it's clear that Hillary Clinton has a far stronger record of work for women than Bernie Sanders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:15:22, repeating your quotes from earlier in the thread does not make them any more persuasive.

1. Clinton's strong support for women. Women who work in the field of women's issues posted long, thoughtful commentary and specific examples of Hillary Clinton's work on behalf of women and girls. You say she gave a "nice speech" in Beijing and you're happy she supports Planned Parenthood. But you refused to give her credit for any of the other examples. Your criticism seems to boil down to (1) she could have done even more, (2) the Clinton Foundation charity accepted money from Saudi Arabia and other countries, and (3) your constant refrain of NAFTA & welfare reform.

2. Sanders' non-existent record on women's issues. You say he has a strong record on women's issues, and you say you "can't point to one moment in his entire career when he missed an opportunity to advocate for women." Well, there's a lot more you haven't pointed to: such as one single specific thing Sanders has accomplished for women. I'm not saying he's never done anything; I'm sure there is something in his record we could find. But you certainly haven't given us anything except vague and unsupported claims that he's strong on women's issues.

At this point, I think it's clear that Hillary Clinton has a far stronger record of work for women than Bernie Sanders.

As one of those experts, I'm glad *someone* ready my thoughts on First Lady, then Senator, then Secretary Clinton's work on behalf of girls and women.

[Anonymous]

Adding another area where Sanders' record shows he's not helping women. Immigration is a feminist issue. http://now.org/resource/immigration-as-a-feminist-issue/

Bernie Sanders "voted in the House with hard-line Republicans for indefinite detention for undocumented immigrants, and then he sided with those Republicans to stand with vigilantes known as Minutemen who were taking up outposts along the border to hunt down immigrants." http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/10/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-bernie-sanders-supported-minu/

Where's was his support for women when he made these votes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women who work in the field of women's issues posted long, thoughtful commentary and specific examples of Hillary Clinton's work on behalf of women and girls.

As one of those experts, I'm glad *someone* ready my thoughts on First Lady, then Senator, then Secretary Clinton's work on behalf of girls and women.

I only skimmed them when you first posted, but went back today and re-read them. Those were really great summaries - not only chock full of detail but also compelling in a personal interest sort of way. I really appreciate them. Thanks for posting them!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Adding another area where Sanders' record shows he's not helping women. Immigration is a feminist issue. http://now.org/resource/immigration-as-a-feminist-issue/

Bernie Sanders "voted in the House with hard-line Republicans for indefinite detention for undocumented immigrants, and then he sided with those Republicans to stand with vigilantes known as Minutemen who were taking up outposts along the border to hunt down immigrants." http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/10/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-bernie-sanders-supported-minu/

Where's was his support for women when he made these votes?

If you really want to understand that vote, which I doubt, it is very complicated and I do not have time to explain it but here is an article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/10/yes-bernie-sanders-voted-to-kill-immigration-reform-in-2007-but-its-complicated/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:15:22, repeating your quotes from earlier in the thread does not make them any more persuasive.

1. Clinton's strong support for women. Women who work in the field of women's issues posted long, thoughtful commentary and specific examples of Hillary Clinton's work on behalf of women and girls. You say she gave a "nice speech" in Beijing and you're happy she supports Planned Parenthood. But you refused to give her credit for any of the other examples. Your criticism seems to boil down to (1) she could have done even more, (2) the Clinton Foundation charity accepted money from Saudi Arabia and other countries, and (3) your constant refrain of NAFTA & welfare reform.

2. Sanders' non-existent record on women's issues. You say he has a strong record on women's issues, and you say you "can't point to one moment in his entire career when he missed an opportunity to advocate for women." Well, there's a lot more you haven't pointed to: such as one single specific thing Sanders has accomplished for women. I'm not saying he's never done anything; I'm sure there is something in his record we could find. But you certainly haven't given us anything except vague and unsupported claims that he's strong on women's issues.

At this point, I think it's clear that Hillary Clinton has a far stronger record of work for women than Bernie Sanders.

I have posted many links and given plenty of concrete examples that you choose to ignore.

As far as which candidate really has a stronger record: It really depends on which issues are most important to you. If identity politics and the advancement of financially privileged women are the main points by which you define feminism, then you could say that Clinton is a "real" feminist.

If equality, fairness, justice, and the rights and protection of poor women, disadvantaged women, and working class women are part of your definition of feminist principles, then calling Clinton a feminist is quite a stretch. I understand the desire to minimize Clinton's contribution to legislation which has harmed women. I wouldn't want to think about that either if I was one of her enthusiastic supporters. If you believe the most important thing for the advancement of women is to have a woman president, perhaps it doesn't matter to you what her record has shown us about her values and principles. It really worries me. And I agree that she will probably be our next president.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:15:22, repeating your quotes from earlier in the thread does not make them any more persuasive.

1. Clinton's strong support for women. Women who work in the field of women's issues posted long, thoughtful commentary and specific examples of Hillary Clinton's work on behalf of women and girls. You say she gave a "nice speech" in Beijing and you're happy she supports Planned Parenthood. But you refused to give her credit for any of the other examples. Your criticism seems to boil down to (1) she could have done even more, (2) the Clinton Foundation charity accepted money from Saudi Arabia and other countries, and (3) your constant refrain of NAFTA & welfare reform.

2. Sanders' non-existent record on women's issues. You say he has a strong record on women's issues, and you say you "can't point to one moment in his entire career when he missed an opportunity to advocate for women." Well, there's a lot more you haven't pointed to: such as one single specific thing Sanders has accomplished for women. I'm not saying he's never done anything; I'm sure there is something in his record we could find. But you certainly haven't given us anything except vague and unsupported claims that he's strong on women's issues.

At this point, I think it's clear that Hillary Clinton has a far stronger record of work for women than Bernie Sanders.

I have posted many links and given plenty of concrete examples that you choose to ignore.

As far as which candidate really has a stronger record: It really depends on which issues are most important to you. If identity politics and the advancement of financially privileged women are the main points by which you define feminism, then you could say that Clinton is a "real" feminist.

If equality, fairness, justice, and the rights and protection of poor women, disadvantaged women, and working class women are part of your definition of feminist principles, then calling Clinton a feminist is quite a stretch. I understand the desire to minimize Clinton's contribution to legislation which has harmed women. I wouldn't want to think about that either if I was one of her enthusiastic supporters. If you believe the most important thing for the advancement of women is to have a woman president, perhaps it doesn't matter to you what her record has shown us about her values and principles. It really worries me. And I agree that she will probably be our next president.

JFC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Adding another area where Sanders' record shows he's not helping women. Immigration is a feminist issue. http://now.org/resource/immigration-as-a-feminist-issue/

Bernie Sanders "voted in the House with hard-line Republicans for indefinite detention for undocumented immigrants, and then he sided with those Republicans to stand with vigilantes known as Minutemen who were taking up outposts along the border to hunt down immigrants." http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/10/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-bernie-sanders-supported-minu/

Where's was his support for women when he made these votes?

If you really want to understand that vote, which I doubt, it is very complicated and I do not have time to explain it but here is an article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/10/yes-bernie-sanders-voted-to-kill-immigration-reform-in-2007-but-its-complicated/

Actually, you're pointing to yet a another piece of immigration legislation where Sanders voted with the Republicans. I was pointing to one from 2006. I'm sure Sanders' specific reasons for voting the way he did on both pieces of legislation may be complicated, but the net effect is that he voted against immigrants and with Republicans.

I appreciate your recognition that when politicians cast votes or take positions, there's often a complex backdrop in play. And just looking at one aspect of the action in a vacuum may give an unclear picture. Are you just as forgiving of the context when you look at Hillary Clinton's record?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:15:22, repeating your quotes from earlier in the thread does not make them any more persuasive.

1. Clinton's strong support for women. Women who work in the field of women's issues posted long, thoughtful commentary and specific examples of Hillary Clinton's work on behalf of women and girls. You say she gave a "nice speech" in Beijing and you're happy she supports Planned Parenthood. But you refused to give her credit for any of the other examples. Your criticism seems to boil down to (1) she could have done even more, (2) the Clinton Foundation charity accepted money from Saudi Arabia and other countries, and (3) your constant refrain of NAFTA & welfare reform.

2. Sanders' non-existent record on women's issues. You say he has a strong record on women's issues, and you say you "can't point to one moment in his entire career when he missed an opportunity to advocate for women." Well, there's a lot more you haven't pointed to: such as one single specific thing Sanders has accomplished for women. I'm not saying he's never done anything; I'm sure there is something in his record we could find. But you certainly haven't given us anything except vague and unsupported claims that he's strong on women's issues.

At this point, I think it's clear that Hillary Clinton has a far stronger record of work for women than Bernie Sanders.

I have posted many links and given plenty of concrete examples that you choose to ignore.

As far as which candidate really has a stronger record: It really depends on which issues are most important to you. If identity politics and the advancement of financially privileged women are the main points by which you define feminism, then you could say that Clinton is a "real" feminist.

If equality, fairness, justice, and the rights and protection of poor women, disadvantaged women, and working class women are part of your definition of feminist principles, then calling Clinton a feminist is quite a stretch. I understand the desire to minimize Clinton's contribution to legislation which has harmed women. I wouldn't want to think about that either if I was one of her enthusiastic supporters. If you believe the most important thing for the advancement of women is to have a woman president, perhaps it doesn't matter to you what her record has shown us about her values and principles. It really worries me. And I agree that she will probably be our next president.

Yes. You're right. Only feminists who just care about the rich think Clinton is a good feminist. That's why the leaders of PP, NOW, and NARAL think so.
You're so dismissive and condescending that you can't see the obvious flaws in your argument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:15:22, repeating your quotes from earlier in the thread does not make them any more persuasive.

1. Clinton's strong support for women. Women who work in the field of women's issues posted long, thoughtful commentary and specific examples of Hillary Clinton's work on behalf of women and girls. You say she gave a "nice speech" in Beijing and you're happy she supports Planned Parenthood. But you refused to give her credit for any of the other examples. Your criticism seems to boil down to (1) she could have done even more, (2) the Clinton Foundation charity accepted money from Saudi Arabia and other countries, and (3) your constant refrain of NAFTA & welfare reform.

2. Sanders' non-existent record on women's issues. You say he has a strong record on women's issues, and you say you "can't point to one moment in his entire career when he missed an opportunity to advocate for women." Well, there's a lot more you haven't pointed to: such as one single specific thing Sanders has accomplished for women. I'm not saying he's never done anything; I'm sure there is something in his record we could find. But you certainly haven't given us anything except vague and unsupported claims that he's strong on women's issues.

At this point, I think it's clear that Hillary Clinton has a far stronger record of work for women than Bernie Sanders.

I have posted many links and given plenty of concrete examples that you choose to ignore.

As far as which candidate really has a stronger record: It really depends on which issues are most important to you. If identity politics and the advancement of financially privileged women are the main points by which you define feminism, then you could say that Clinton is a "real" feminist.

If equality, fairness, justice, and the rights and protection of poor women, disadvantaged women, and working class women are part of your definition of feminist principles, then calling Clinton a feminist is quite a stretch. I understand the desire to minimize Clinton's contribution to legislation which has harmed women. I wouldn't want to think about that either if I was one of her enthusiastic supporters. If you believe the most important thing for the advancement of women is to have a woman president, perhaps it doesn't matter to you what her record has shown us about her values and principles. It really worries me. And I agree that she will probably be our next president.

JFC.

Indeed. Head. Desk.