Bafta awards controversy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Haven't you seen the videos of people post anesthesia who say offensive things? Are people really triggered and offended by those vidoes and expect apologies? Usually the people in them are laughing and not taking it personally as they understand what the person coming out of anesthesia is saying is not under their control. But most people on here seem to think those people are extremely offensive and should be apologizing for their comments and that being under sanesthetic does not give them a right to say anything inappropriate and they need to be held responsible.

I think people are used to being able to reflexively demand other people apologize. They are frustrated that it doesn't seem to work in this case.

Ultimately that’s on him. The impact of not sincerely apologizing will be his burden. He’ll always be known for this and what he did after. And that’s how his movie will be viewed too.

In reality, despite your sock puppeting - probably 0.001% of the population shares your view that he needs to apologize for existing and stay away from people. I am sure he and his movie will continue to receive lots of support and do just fine. The majority of people can understand the nuances of the situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Haven't you seen the videos of people post anesthesia who say offensive things? Are people really triggered and offended by those vidoes and expect apologies? Usually the people in them are laughing and not taking it personally as they understand what the person coming out of anesthesia is saying is not under their control. But most people on here seem to think those people are extremely offensive and should be apologizing for their comments and that being under sanesthetic does not give them a right to say anything inappropriate and they need to be held responsible.

I think people are used to being able to reflexively demand other people apologize. They are frustrated that it doesn't seem to work in this case.

Ultimately that’s on him. The impact of not sincerely apologizing will be his burden. He’ll always be known for this and what he did after. And that’s how his movie will be viewed too.

In reality, despite your sock puppeting - probably 0.001% of the population shares your view that he needs to apologize for existing and stay away from people. I am sure he and his movie will continue to receive lots of support and do just fine. The majority of people can understand the nuances of the situation.

You’re right. I’m the only one here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is kind of interesting that people who have been discriminated against themselves for being black are now in this thread pointing the finger at a different demographic and saying they have no right to be in society, we don't want to mix with them in public, they need to stay at home hidden away, they should not be invited to social events, they should keep to themselves and stay away from us.

Oh we gotta another one in this thread. I’m sure all the black people hear you loud and clear, they need to remember their place in this world.

Nothing to do with all black people. I posted earlier about a black actor who was also in the movie who called for compassion and understanding. Other discussion boards I went to had a much more nuanced understanding as well and understood why he was there and how the situation was mismanaged vs on here where it is all about being him being vilified.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is kind of interesting that people who have been discriminated against themselves for being black are now in this thread pointing the finger at a different demographic and saying they have no right to be in society, we don't want to mix with them in public, they need to stay at home hidden away, they should not be invited to social events, they should keep to themselves and stay away from us.

Oh we gotta another one in this thread. I’m sure all the black people hear you loud and clear, they need to remember their place in this world.

People need to learn to coexist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is kind of interesting that people who have been discriminated against themselves for being black are now in this thread pointing the finger at a different demographic and saying they have no right to be in society, we don't want to mix with them in public, they need to stay at home hidden away, they should not be invited to social events, they should keep to themselves and stay away from us.

Where did Black people say this? I'm one in this thread and I've said he had the right to be there. He should be able to have as full of an existence as possible. But at some point there has to be an acknowledgment that he's ruining the show for hundreds of others and then what? You seem to think that black people (or anyone) should be subjected to hearing nonstop racial slurs at an awards event. That's not appropriate nor is it ableism. I'm sure he attended with the hope that his tics would not have been offensive. I wish his tics would not have been offensive. Everyone who applauded at the beginning of the show probably hoped it would not be offensive. If he was yelling "banana" maybe it's a different story..But to disregard the feelings of dozens (if not hundreds) of others for the feelings of this one man is asinine. It's also not practical for a program that hopes to air on TV

[Anonymous]

I’m not really sure where I come down on this but I don’t think it’s that outrageous to apologize for an involuntary action. If I sneezed on someone accidentally I would apologize. If my child with Tourette’s hit someone because their arm flailed out, they would apologize. I get that they can’t apologize for every tic. And it’s not reasonable to expect that. But it sounds like an apology would not be out of line in these circumstances. If you unintentionally hurt someone’s feelings, you generally apologize. And then the other person I should generally be gracious about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He had no intent so what is he apologizing for - the inconvenience of his disability?

If a blind man bumps into someone who loses their balance, is it physical assault? Should he be hit in turn and arrested for his physical violence?

There are quitea few conditions, including severe ASD where people have vocalizations that are uncontolled and involutary. That is the nature of the condition. Can it be bothersome - yes but that is what diversity is - accepting inclusion of people who are diverse and different from you.

You can't be against John Davidson but for Diversity, Equity, or Inclusion. You are either for both or against both.

Impact matters over intent. It’s amazing that you can’t understand if you do something without intending to, you still apologize for causing harm.

Some people would be on a 24/7 apology tour - especially parents of kids with significant autism whose behaviours can impact continuously. Basically you feel they need to apologize for existing and for having a disability. I had a client with a muscle disorder whose spasms meant I got hit / kicked often. I definitely didn't need an apology letter every time that demonstrated she truly understands the impact of her actions on me. This outburst isn't about intent even as it is uncontrolled and involuntary. Intent is usually related to someone not having the knowledge or understanding. People don't choose to have a disability. You have no idea likely how he modifies his day and his life continously - and the humiliation and pain he deals with daily with this disorder so your view that he should be hung in the town square because the disability / intent / controllability aren't relevant - shows you need to watch his movie more than anyone.

You missed the point. It’s not about his intent but the IMPACT of what he said. His disability isn’t an excuse to not apologizing for the harm he caused.

He didn't cause harm.

Are you just trolling or do you really believe that?

I believe that. If my infant throws up on my nice sweater just as I am about to leave for work - I do not feel the infant caused me harm and that they need to take responsibility or the impact of their actions. I do in fact consider that it was involuntary, uncontrolled and there was zero intent to soil my clothes as it is simply part of being an infant. How would you want me to hold my infant accountable and responsible for the harm they caused and the impact on me and my day?

I don't see my infant as harming me nor do I see copralalia as harming me. When things are involuntary and uncontrollable and due to factors outside the control of the person - I see them as such.

If you have to compare a disabled adult to an infant to defend their decision to remain in a public place when they want to scream the n-word, you are ableist yourself.

He felt he had the right to stay no matter what came out of his mouth. Make of that what you will. But don’t compare it to an infant with indigestion.

Both might intend no harm, but one is fully aware he might cause it and decides it’s worth the risk.

Psychiatrist here-you are completely wrong.

I am an adult who became disabled at middle age. I would not want a psychiatrist who infantilized adults with disabilities.

Does this guy have a disability or not? If people think he can and should control and make apologies for it, it then it sounds like they don't believe his disability is real.

No, actually, if you’ve bothered to read the comments and understood them, you’d see that most understand that he can’t control his tics AND that he should apologize when it’s likely that he’s inadvertently hurt someone— just as all of us should.

He would spend every minute of everyday apologizing. How about people stop being so sensitive? When you know it’s a tic and he can’t help it, why on earth would you be so offended by what he’s saying?? He’s just speaking nonsense.

Damn. Every day I wake up hoping the world would be less racist. And every day there’s a person like you PP.

Everyday I wake up hoping that people would stop claiming that everything is about race and racism. And everyday there’s a person like you PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Haven't you seen the videos of people post anesthesia who say offensive things? Are people really triggered and offended by those vidoes and expect apologies? Usually the people in them are laughing and not taking it personally as they understand what the person coming out of anesthesia is saying is not under their control. But most people on here seem to think those people are extremely offensive and should be apologizing for their comments and that being under sanesthetic does not give them a right to say anything inappropriate and they need to be held responsible.

I think people are used to being able to reflexively demand other people apologize. They are frustrated that it doesn't seem to work in this case.

Ultimately that’s on him. The impact of not sincerely apologizing will be his burden. He’ll always be known for this and what he did after. And that’s how his movie will be viewed too.

In reality, despite your sock puppeting - probably 0.001% of the population shares your view that he needs to apologize for existing and stay away from people. I am sure he and his movie will continue to receive lots of support and do just fine. The majority of people can understand the nuances of the situation.

NP here but I don't think he needs to apologize for existing, I also don't think he needs to stay away from people. I do think that he should extend heartfelt apologies- both public, and individual private ones (via BAFTA representatives, to the actors)- to the people he had these vocal tics towards as they were speaking. If I had a disorder where I, without warning, would turn and vomit on someone, and I turned and vomited on someone as she was standing up to give a presentation at work, I would not wipe my mouth and shrug and say "it's my disability- what does she want me to do?" I would offer a heartfelt apology!

Also, I refuse to believe that this individual had no agency to step out into the hallway during speeches, after his vocal tic loudly impacted someone's speech for the first time. To the person who compared someone with Tourette's to a crying or vomiting baby ( ), this analogy actually works here! You wouldn't just have your screaming baby continue to scream during someone's acceptance speech, right? You'd step out with her, knowing that two things can be true- the baby isn't meaning to cause anyone harm and she can't help but cry, and ALSO, this crying is disrupting the person's acceptance speech in an unacceptable way. I think it takes a lot of balls to continue to stay in the audience knowing that you're ejaculating these loud obscenities and racial slurs at people- INVOLUNTARILY, of course- as they're accepting an award, on television, which could be the pinnacle of their entire careers. Both things can be true- it can be totally involuntary, AND he can be kind of a dick for not excusing himself at least during the acceptance speeches.

[Anonymous]

The movie describes how poor his mental health already was and past suicide attempts. And now he has been humiliated on a global stage and people expect him to parade in public with a Scarlet A and get on his knees and grovel for forgiveness in the face of hate being directed at him.

Likey his team have secluded him away to try to keep him alive and well, a bigger focus for them than insisting he meet every individuals needs for the apology they want from him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He had no intent so what is he apologizing for - the inconvenience of his disability?

If a blind man bumps into someone who loses their balance, is it physical assault? Should he be hit in turn and arrested for his physical violence?

There are quitea few conditions, including severe ASD where people have vocalizations that are uncontolled and involutary. That is the nature of the condition. Can it be bothersome - yes but that is what diversity is - accepting inclusion of people who are diverse and different from you.

You can't be against John Davidson but for Diversity, Equity, or Inclusion. You are either for both or against both.

Impact matters over intent. It’s amazing that you can’t understand if you do something without intending to, you still apologize for causing harm.

Some people would be on a 24/7 apology tour - especially parents of kids with significant autism whose behaviours can impact continuously. Basically you feel they need to apologize for existing and for having a disability. I had a client with a muscle disorder whose spasms meant I got hit / kicked often. I definitely didn't need an apology letter every time that demonstrated she truly understands the impact of her actions on me. This outburst isn't about intent even as it is uncontrolled and involuntary. Intent is usually related to someone not having the knowledge or understanding. People don't choose to have a disability. You have no idea likely how he modifies his day and his life continously - and the humiliation and pain he deals with daily with this disorder so your view that he should be hung in the town square because the disability / intent / controllability aren't relevant - shows you need to watch his movie more than anyone.

You missed the point. It’s not about his intent but the IMPACT of what he said. His disability isn’t an excuse to not apologizing for the harm he caused.

He didn't cause harm.

Are you just trolling or do you really believe that?

I believe that. If my infant throws up on my nice sweater just as I am about to leave for work - I do not feel the infant caused me harm and that they need to take responsibility or the impact of their actions. I do in fact consider that it was involuntary, uncontrolled and there was zero intent to soil my clothes as it is simply part of being an infant. How would you want me to hold my infant accountable and responsible for the harm they caused and the impact on me and my day?

I don't see my infant as harming me nor do I see copralalia as harming me. When things are involuntary and uncontrollable and due to factors outside the control of the person - I see them as such.

If you have to compare a disabled adult to an infant to defend their decision to remain in a public place when they want to scream the n-word, you are ableist yourself.

He felt he had the right to stay no matter what came out of his mouth. Make of that what you will. But don’t compare it to an infant with indigestion.

Both might intend no harm, but one is fully aware he might cause it and decides it’s worth the risk.

Psychiatrist here-you are completely wrong.

I am an adult who became disabled at middle age. I would not want a psychiatrist who infantilized adults with disabilities.

Does this guy have a disability or not? If people think he can and should control and make apologies for it, it then it sounds like they don't believe his disability is real.

No, actually, if you’ve bothered to read the comments and understood them, you’d see that most understand that he can’t control his tics AND that he should apologize when it’s likely that he’s inadvertently hurt someone— just as all of us should.

He would spend every minute of everyday apologizing. How about people stop being so sensitive? When you know it’s a tic and he can’t help it, why on earth would you be so offended by what he’s saying?? He’s just speaking nonsense.

Damn. Every day I wake up hoping the world would be less racist. And every day there’s a person like you PP.

Everyday I wake up hoping that people would stop claiming that everything is about race and racism. And everyday there’s a person like you PP.

Calling a black person the N word is directly about race. There is no nuance in that. He didn’t call a white guy the N word. In fact if the tic had him saying that to people of different races on stage, it wouldn’t be about race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He had no intent so what is he apologizing for - the inconvenience of his disability?

If a blind man bumps into someone who loses their balance, is it physical assault? Should he be hit in turn and arrested for his physical violence?

There are quitea few conditions, including severe ASD where people have vocalizations that are uncontolled and involutary. That is the nature of the condition. Can it be bothersome - yes but that is what diversity is - accepting inclusion of people who are diverse and different from you.

You can't be against John Davidson but for Diversity, Equity, or Inclusion. You are either for both or against both.

Impact matters over intent. It’s amazing that you can’t understand if you do something without intending to, you still apologize for causing harm.

Some people would be on a 24/7 apology tour - especially parents of kids with significant autism whose behaviours can impact continuously. Basically you feel they need to apologize for existing and for having a disability. I had a client with a muscle disorder whose spasms meant I got hit / kicked often. I definitely didn't need an apology letter every time that demonstrated she truly understands the impact of her actions on me. This outburst isn't about intent even as it is uncontrolled and involuntary. Intent is usually related to someone not having the knowledge or understanding. People don't choose to have a disability. You have no idea likely how he modifies his day and his life continously - and the humiliation and pain he deals with daily with this disorder so your view that he should be hung in the town square because the disability / intent / controllability aren't relevant - shows you need to watch his movie more than anyone.

You missed the point. It’s not about his intent but the IMPACT of what he said. His disability isn’t an excuse to not apologizing for the harm he caused.

He didn't cause harm.

Are you just trolling or do you really believe that?

I believe that. If my infant throws up on my nice sweater just as I am about to leave for work - I do not feel the infant caused me harm and that they need to take responsibility or the impact of their actions. I do in fact consider that it was involuntary, uncontrolled and there was zero intent to soil my clothes as it is simply part of being an infant. How would you want me to hold my infant accountable and responsible for the harm they caused and the impact on me and my day?

I don't see my infant as harming me nor do I see copralalia as harming me. When things are involuntary and uncontrollable and due to factors outside the control of the person - I see them as such.

If you have to compare a disabled adult to an infant to defend their decision to remain in a public place when they want to scream the n-word, you are ableist yourself.

He felt he had the right to stay no matter what came out of his mouth. Make of that what you will. But don’t compare it to an infant with indigestion.

Both might intend no harm, but one is fully aware he might cause it and decides it’s worth the risk.

Psychiatrist here-you are completely wrong.

I am an adult who became disabled at middle age. I would not want a psychiatrist who infantilized adults with disabilities.

Does this guy have a disability or not? If people think he can and should control and make apologies for it, it then it sounds like they don't believe his disability is real.

No, actually, if you’ve bothered to read the comments and understood them, you’d see that most understand that he can’t control his tics AND that he should apologize when it’s likely that he’s inadvertently hurt someone— just as all of us should.

He would spend every minute of everyday apologizing. How about people stop being so sensitive? When you know it’s a tic and he can’t help it, why on earth would you be so offended by what he’s saying?? He’s just speaking nonsense.

Damn. Every day I wake up hoping the world would be less racist. And every day there’s a person like you PP.

Everyday I wake up hoping that people would stop claiming that everything is about race and racism. And everyday there’s a person like you PP.

Calling a black person the N word is directly about race. There is no nuance in that. He didn’t call a white guy the N word. In fact if the tic had him saying that to people of different races on stage, it wouldn’t be about race.

+1

[Anonymous]

How do you all know he (or his team) didn't reach out to the two men or others after the fact?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The movie describes how poor his mental health already was and past suicide attempts. And now he has been humiliated on a global stage and people expect him to parade in public with a Scarlet A and get on his knees and grovel for forgiveness in the face of hate being directed at him.

Likey his team have secluded him away to try to keep him alive and well, a bigger focus for them than insisting he meet every individuals needs for the apology they want from him.

That sort of situation was a no win situation for him. If he didn't attend, he would feel like he was missing out on yet another thing due to his disability. If he did attend, it was very obviously going to go something like this. BAFTA made a massive mistake by airing his vocal outburts on TV. It was nothing short of cruel, to both him and to the people who were on stage when it happened. And honestly? Some situations aren't suited for all people. I have panic attacks on airplanes, so you know what, I don't travel on airplanes. I could, if I had to- and on rare occasions, I have done just that- but it's highly unpleasant for me and I have nightmares about it both before and after. Maybe this person's disability didn't make the evening highly unpleasant for himself, but he made it highly unpleasant for the other honored guests, and maybe he should have just declined the invitation. Is it fair? No. It is incredibly unfair. But sometimes, things are incredibly unfair. It's also unfair that my neighbor's son has a recurrent brain tumor and less than 6 months to live. It's unfair for him that sitting in the audience during that large public ceremony wasn't a good idea, but, it wasn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do you all know he (or his team) didn't reach out to the two men or others after the fact?

You really think the apology he released wouldn’t have mentioned it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The movie describes how poor his mental health already was and past suicide attempts. And now he has been humiliated on a global stage and people expect him to parade in public with a Scarlet A and get on his knees and grovel for forgiveness in the face of hate being directed at him.

Likey his team have secluded him away to try to keep him alive and well, a bigger focus for them than insisting he meet every individuals needs for the apology they want from him.

That sort of situation was a no win situation for him. If he didn't attend, he would feel like he was missing out on yet another thing due to his disability. If he did attend, it was very obviously going to go something like this. BAFTA made a massive mistake by airing his vocal outburts on TV. It was nothing short of cruel, to both him and to the people who were on stage when it happened. And honestly? Some situations aren't suited for all people. I have panic attacks on airplanes, so you know what, I don't travel on airplanes. I could, if I had to- and on rare occasions, I have done just that- but it's highly unpleasant for me and I have nightmares about it both before and after. Maybe this person's disability didn't make the evening highly unpleasant for himself, but he made it highly unpleasant for the other honored guests, and maybe he should have just declined the invitation. Is it fair? No. It is incredibly unfair. But sometimes, things are incredibly unfair. It's also unfair that my neighbor's son has a recurrent brain tumor and less than 6 months to live. It's unfair for him that sitting in the audience during that large public ceremony wasn't a good idea, but, it wasn't.

The BAFTAs would probably also have gotten a lot of backlash if they hadn't invited him. The movie is a big hit and is based on his life story and his disability and the stigma and struggle he has had and how disruptive it has been to every aspect of his life - if they had said, no we didn't invite him as his disability (that the movie about) could disrupt others and so we didn't want him here - I doubt that would have gone over very well. Excluding him from that event solely due to his disability would not have been a good look.