SFFA doesn't like the Asian American %

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pull up pictures of students at best college in China, Japan etc. Notice zero diversity.

Same at the best universities in most countries. Nigeria's best college is almost entirely black. india's best colleges are almost entirely indian. France's best colleges are almost entirely white. Etc.

Diversity simply isn't that important for learning.

Less than 0.5% of India is foreign born. So, does that mean it’s fine if we exclude based on that basis?

You certainly don't have to lower standards to get proportional representation.

Sorbonne is actually fairly diverse. Similar demographics to US schools in terms of black population. Not sure why you would think otherwise.

If so, they are able to achieve that without racial preferences. Just a test score.

Sure as long as you are fine with discriminating by caste which is both color and income discrimination.

So, you are good if we do that in the US?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges can look at how race affects someone on an individual level:
“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise”
-John Roberts

You should read the rest of that paragraph. It goes on to say you can't use the essays as a way to get around the prohibition against racial discrimination.

Did you read it?

“ A benefit to a student who overcame racial discrimination, for example, must be tied to that student's courage and determination. Or a benefit to a student whose heritage or culture motivated him or her to assume a leadership role or attain a particular goal must be tied to that student's unique ability to contribute to the university. In other words, the student must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual—not on the basis of race,”


As I said, colleges can look at how race affects someone on an individual level.

I agree, but the suspicion is that they are using the essays to try and figure out people's race.

I was talking about the part that said you can't use essays as way of identifying a student's race to do something that is prohibited.
What cannot be done directly cannot be done indirectly.

NP: if applicants are allowed to discuss how race has impacted their life (positive or negative), how can universities avoid using essays to evaluate students as individuals when the essay is the way to share this information?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Study harder and compete. Don't make excuses and complain.
Studies show that these differences are attributable in large part due to extra time studying. We've known this for at least a decade.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

If you don't want to study until past midnight every night, then don't complain that the ones that do get into better schools than you.

A residential campus where everyone studies past midnight every night seems like a pressure cooker of unrelenting, unmitigated misery.

Pick the level of competition you feel comfortable with and live with your choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The universities don’t have the sole mission of admitting the 1000 smartest students every year. That’s not their goal. They cannot say they thought because a lot of your heads would explode.

But they shouldn't be racially discriminating.
Racial discrimination is an impermissible goal.
And that is what they think is still happening despite the supreme court telling them to knock it off.

And frankly rank order admission to college based on academic stats is pretty common in the rest of the world.

America is not the rest of the world. Go to college in those countries if that’s your priority.

I am curious...is there an American Expat/immigrant community over in England/Europe/India that cries like babies about the admissions process in those countries?

Maybe there is...but I doubt it. I imagine those expats/immigrants accept how the system works and figure out how to make the best of it.

The UK looks at grades and test scores, that's it. Asian Brits do better in the UK academically than any other groups, just like here.

pupils from the Chinese ethnic group had the highest Attainment 8 score out of all ethnic groups (66.1), followed by pupils from the Indian ethnic group (61.3)

people from the Chinese ethnic group had the highest entry rate in every year from 2006 to 2022

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/11-to-16-years-old/gcse-results-attainment-8-for-children-aged-14-to-16-key-stage-4/latest/

As an example:



https://www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-figures/admissions-statistics/undergraduate-students/current/ethnicity

Chinese make up 1% of the UK population but take up 16% of the seats in Oxford.

They don't need to whine about it because the system there is transparent.

My DC got super high stats on their GPA (from a magnet) and SAT scores (1580). My IL is here from the UK and was gobsmacked that a kid with those stats didn't even get an interview or on the waitlist for a T10. In the UK, they said such a student would at least get an interview at the top schools.

DC is a dual citizen and said that they would consider moving to the UK if they have kids because the college admissions process here is crazy.

You are dense and of course missing the point.

Is there a group of American expats/immigrants (not Chinese immigrants) sitting on London Urban Moms or Paris Urban Moms or wherever, complaining about the college system in those countries? Yes or no?

I think the answer is no...but maybe they are. My point is, they adapt to the system. You can do the same.

Even your references make no sense. Oxford has 26,555 students...Cambridge has 21,656. Just those two schools combined are nearly larger than the top 10 US universities combined.

Why are the Chinese even leaving China if they just want to compete in a Chinese system of college admissions?

You're super dense yourself.

People leave their home country for all sorts of reasons. Did your ancestors leave their home country because of college admissions? Hm.. somehow I doubt that.

The PP asked whether immigrants in other countries complain about the college system in the UK and other countries I answered, no, they don't in the UK because the UK doesn't have "holistic" admissions (and neither do most other countries), and their top colleges (like Oxford) admit Asian Brits at a higher rate than the general population because.. get this.. they score higher on exams than other groups, even native white Brits.

They do not believe that the university's demographic should look like the general population. Only simple minded people think that way.

No...I asked if Americans in the UK and other countries complain about those systems. How many times does that need to be spelled out to you?

I doubt they complain. They just adapt.

You can too if you want.

We are adapting. We are suing.
Just in brown v board and loving v virginia
Lawsuits are a pretty american this

And it is really very stupid to say that noone is complaining about racism in oxford admissions where there is no apparent racism in oxford admissions.

Looks like a white man was suing, not an Asian. However, it's funny that suing is your way of adapting.

The answer is you won't find any American that lives in Europe, India or China (BTW, India and China are massively racist) crying about the college system. They will adapt to that system, or guess what, they will attend college in their home country.

You have the same options. Take advantage of them.

No thank you. I think we will continue to use the legal system to stop racism against us.

If you think there is racism being levelled against you, you should sue too.

You can adapt, and colleges will similarly adapt to get the mix of students they prefer and desire. Learn from how this has backfired on you and dont make the same mistake twice and make it worse for yourself.

Pfft. How did you guys ever beat segregation with that attitude?
Just because racists refuse to stop being racist doesn't mean we should stop fighting racism.
Maybe you thought that SFFA was going to be the end of the fight but we certainly didn't.
Even if we lost SFFA, it wasn't going to be the end of the fight.
Why would we ever stop fighting against racial discrimination?
SFFA was a turning point but there is still a lot of fighting left to be done before we effectively eliminate discrimination in college admissions.
But the outcome is pretty certain at this point. The question is merely how long will the racists be able to hold out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Diversity simply isn't that important for learning.

Somewhat true for certain subjects. And only true if you myopically view "learning" as confined to the classroom. Virtually all top U.S. colleges view residence halls as a place of learning too.

Does lesser learning go on at HBCUs? Are their graduates myopically crippled in America full of non-black people they have to interact with?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pull up pictures of students at best college in China, Japan etc. Notice zero diversity.

Same at the best universities in most countries. Nigeria's best college is almost entirely black. india's best colleges are almost entirely indian. France's best colleges are almost entirely white. Etc.

Diversity simply isn't that important for learning.

It probably isn’t as important in homogeneous countries. Here is the US it’s important and many people value it.

+1
My kid is at TJ, has a 4+ GPA, scored over 1500 on SATs. White.

I don't know why you think your white kids gives you any moral authority to bless racial discrimination against asians but it doesn't.

Because of the diversity of THIS country and our history with it diversity is important to a lot of people. Personally I don’t know how important it is in the classroom but I do think it’s important that elite institutions try to make themselves look more like America (not exactly matching it but striving toward diversity within them). This is better for the country than groups being shut out.

Their failure to meet the bar in something approaching their proportion in the population does not mean they are being shut out.

As crazy making as the college process is nowadays I want zero part of those foreign high stakes systems where everything hinges on how you score on the big exam. If you LIKE that system, go to college THERE! every other country uses it. Leave the US system to be unique in picking a broad student body.

No thank you. I will stay right here and fight to eliminate racial discrimination against asians.
It is wild that so many people get mad that people are fighting racism.
Like southern segregationist mad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What minority has comprised 10 to 20 percent of Japan's population?

From the late 1800 to the end of WWII Koreans comprised more than that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Study harder and compete. Don't make excuses and complain.
Studies show that these differences are attributable in large part due to extra time studying. We've known this for at least a decade.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

If you don't want to study until past midnight every night, then don't complain that the ones that do get into better schools than you.

A residential campus where everyone studies past midnight every night seems like a pressure cooker of unrelenting, unmitigated misery.

Pick the level of competition you feel comfortable with and live with your choices.

The gloom of the world is but a shadow; behind it, yet within our reach is joy. Take Joy!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pull up pictures of students at best college in China, Japan etc. Notice zero diversity.

Same at the best universities in most countries. Nigeria's best college is almost entirely black. india's best colleges are almost entirely indian. France's best colleges are almost entirely white. Etc.

Diversity simply isn't that important for learning.

In the United States of America, it is - and for the elite colleges that are gateways to upward mobility- it should be.

The top 5 HBCUs have done more for the black middle class we see today than the entire Ivy+ combined.

Asian Americans are part of this diversity. Yes, and URMs too.

Sure, but the constitution prohibits admissions based on race so let me know when you have amended the 14th amendment to the constitution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pull up pictures of students at best college in China, Japan etc. Notice zero diversity.

Same at the best universities in most countries. Nigeria's best college is almost entirely black. india's best colleges are almost entirely indian. France's best colleges are almost entirely white. Etc.

Diversity simply isn't that important for learning.

It is in America. The university population should reflect the country demographics.

This isn't about the university population.

90%+ of universities are noncompetitive. Most colleges don't practice affirmative action because they don't have to.

This is about the population at highly competitive universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When will that entitled jerk, Blum, just go away. Old, rich white dudes have caused so much damage in our society...

He's fighting racism.

The segregationists probably felt the same way about Thurgood Marshall

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The universities don’t have the sole mission of admitting the 1000 smartest students every year. That’s not their goal. They cannot say they thought because a lot of your heads would explode.

But they shouldn't be racially discriminating.
Racial discrimination is an impermissible goal.
And that is what they think is still happening despite the supreme court telling them to knock it off.

And frankly rank order admission to college based on academic stats is pretty common in the rest of the world.

America is not the rest of the world. Go to college in those countries if that’s your priority.

I am curious...is there an American Expat/immigrant community over in England/Europe/India that cries like babies about the admissions process in those countries?
Maybe there is...but I doubt it. I imagine those expats/immigrants accept how the system works and figure out how to make the best of it.

There 1000% is. In England a point of contention has been the lack of diversity at Oxford and Cambridge and they’ve changed from absolute standards because of so

Yes, because certain groups perform better academically than others. So, because some groups don't focus as much on academics, universities are having to lower their threshold to achieve diversity. And before you say, "academics isn't everything".. foreign universities see academics as really the only measure of how well a student will do in college. Even studies in the US have shown that SAT scores are a good indicator of how well a student will perform in college, and top colleges are starting to go back to test required because of it.

Perhaps other groups should ask why that is and act accordingly?

This is a nit but I would like to point out that the studies you are talking about only apply to test scores and performance at highly selective colleges.
I know that is what we are talking about here but GPA may a better predictor than SAT scores at non-competitive colleges.
https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

Oh LA Times did a story on this very topic:

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-12-22/grades-vs-sat-scores-which-is-a-better-predictor-of-college-success#:~:text=The%20six%2Dyear%20graduation%20rate,1600%2C%20the%20highest%20score%20possible.

I have passing familiarity with Zach Bleemer's work. The UC system gave him access to their data as a doctoral student. It is not clear why he got access and others that asked for it did not. He has IMHO leveraged that study into a position in the economics department at princeton.

His work is frequently cited as a counter to the mismatch theory. His paper on the effects of banning affirmative action in California showed that the benefits of going to Berkeley and UCLA were significant enough that it provided a small benefit to hispanic students despite their being less academically qualified relative to their peers. It did not have this effect for black students. For black students going to a lower ranked school did not affect their earnings in the period he selected. In the end, we simply have to take his word for it because noone else has access to the data. In fact there was a lawsuit against the UC system and it is suspected that the lawsuit is in part an attempt to get their hands on this data.

His paper is not a particularly robust counter to is match theory but the opponents of mismatch have latched onto it because it's what's available.

Ok well there has been zero evidence offered from the opposing side. I’m pretty sure you only offer The Bell Curve by Murray and Herrnstein, which has been heavily criticized as academically flimsy work.

You realize that Bleemer is reacting to a series of studies and a book called mismatch theory.

Espenshade at Princeton published a book (no longer separate, not yet equal) and did a bunch of studies on the effects of preferences (racial and otherwise on college admissions.

I don't get the feeling you have read any of this. I don't even get the feeling you've read Bleemer's study or the book you mention.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pull up pictures of students at best college in China, Japan etc. Notice zero diversity.

Same at the best universities in most countries. Nigeria's best college is almost entirely black. india's best colleges are almost entirely indian. France's best colleges are almost entirely white. Etc.

Diversity simply isn't that important for learning.

In the United States of America, it is - and for the elite colleges that are gateways to upward mobility- it should be.

The top 5 HBCUs have done more for the black middle class we see today than the entire Ivy+ combined.

Asian Americans are part of this diversity. Yes, and URMs too.

Sure, but the constitution prohibits admissions based on race so let me know when you have amended the 14th amendment to the constitution.

Under holistic admissions ( please look it up...don't be ignorant), admissions are not based on race. Never was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What minority has comprised 10 to 20 percent of Japan's population?

From the late 1800 to the end of WWII Koreans comprised more than that.

In other words, for nearly the last century, the U.S. has been nowhere near as ethnically homogeneous as Japan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
“It's not ridiculous at all. SFFA brought the action which was successful. Scotus said stop discriminating based upon race. Colleges and universities sent out letters asserting to alumni that, nevertheless, they remained committed to diversity (but only one kind) and started playing games in the essays. Not smart to thimb your nose at SCOTUS. The numbers of asian students went down! that wasn't supposed to happen. I hope they brong a second suit for clarification. The schools are defying the ruling and putting themselves in charge of race based admissions in America.”

Yes. It is quite ridiculous. SCOTUS is the most corrupt court ever and has no credibility and no ethics. They didn’t ban it for the military. Why is that? They didn’t address legacy admissions-otherwise known as white affirmative action. Why is that? Again, it’s all a lie. Nobody is entitled to go to these schools. Get over yourselves.

They didn't ban it for the military because national security holds a special place in constitutional analysis and the military academies have potentially distinct interests in considering the race of the applicant. Did you read the opinion?

They didn't address legacy admissions but SFFA did argue that they could achieve more diversity by abandoning legacy admissions but there is no constitutional prohibition from favoring legacies, but there is a constitutional prohibition from racial discrimination. Did you rad the opinion?

It's true, nobody is entitled to go to these schools, not even under-represented minorities.
It sounds like you are trying to defend racial discrimination when it suits your purposes.

Just a reminder of the vast gulf in academic ability of different groups:
https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/sat-percentile-ranks-gender-race-ethnicity.pdf

8% of blacks get a 1200 or higher on the SAT
5% of hispanics get above a 1300 on the SAT
7% of whites get above a 1400 on the SAT
9% of asians get above a 1500 on the SAT

1% of blacks get a 1400 or higher on the SAT
2% of hispanics get a 1400 or higher on the SAT
7% of whites get a 1400 or higher on the SAT
23% of asians get a 1400 or higher on the SAT

Study harder and compete. Don't make excuses and complain.
Studies show that these differences are attributable in large part due to extra time studying. We've known this for at least a decade.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

If you don't want to study until past midnight every night, then don't complain that the ones that do get into better schools than you.

Academic ability as it applies to SATs only! SATs are only one factor.

It is the single most predictive factor and correlates with pretty much every other important factor.

What are the SAT scores of the CEOs of Fortune 100 companies?

Not sure what that has to do with academic ability but give me a name, I'll give you an SAT score range.

Based on what?

Colleges aren’t trying to pump out the best test takers.

You guys act like test scores are just a measure of some highly trainable but otherwise useless niche ability like being good at rubics cube or something. Don't let the princeton review ads fool you, standardized tests don't just test your ability to take standardized tests. They have highly predictive value, there is no real controversy about this among psychologists. There is about as much controversy about this as there is about global warming. The only people who don't believe it are people with an agenda to pursue. In this case racists who want to keep discriminating on the basis of race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv_Cr1a6rj4

Strawman. I didn’t say that.

Academic strength is one data point. The point is that it’s not the only attribute that is desirable.

You said colleges aren't just trying to pump out test takers so i thought you were saying that being good at tests only means you are good at tests.

If you are saying that colleges want something more than good students when picking students, I guess that's OK but they can't pick them based on race.