SFFA doesn't like the Asian American %

[Anonymous]

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“It's not ridiculous at all. SFFA brought the action which was successful. Scotus said stop discriminating based upon race. Colleges and universities sent out letters asserting to alumni that, nevertheless, they remained committed to diversity (but only one kind) and started playing games in the essays. Not smart to thimb your nose at SCOTUS. The numbers of asian students went down! that wasn't supposed to happen. I hope they brong a second suit for clarification. The schools are defying the ruling and putting themselves in charge of race based admissions in America.”

Yes. It is quite ridiculous. SCOTUS is the most corrupt court ever and has no credibility and no ethics. They didn’t ban it for the military. Why is that? They didn’t address legacy admissions-otherwise known as white affirmative action. Why is that? Again, it’s all a lie. Nobody is entitled to go to these schools. Get over yourselves.

They didn't ban it for the military because national security holds a special place in constitutional analysis and the military academies have potentially distinct interests in considering the race of the applicant. Did you read the opinion?

They didn't address legacy admissions but SFFA did argue that they could achieve more diversity by abandoning legacy admissions but there is no constitutional prohibition from favoring legacies, but there is a constitutional prohibition from racial discrimination. Did you rad the opinion?

It's true, nobody is entitled to go to these schools, not even under-represented minorities.
It sounds like you are trying to defend racial discrimination when it suits your purposes.

Just a reminder of the vast gulf in academic ability of different groups:
https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/sat-percentile-ranks-gender-race-ethnicity.pdf

8% of blacks get a 1200 or higher on the SAT
5% of hispanics get above a 1300 on the SAT
7% of whites get above a 1400 on the SAT
9% of asians get above a 1500 on the SAT

1% of blacks get a 1400 or higher on the SAT
2% of hispanics get a 1400 or higher on the SAT
7% of whites get a 1400 or higher on the SAT
23% of asians get a 1400 or higher on the SAT

Study harder and compete. Don't make excuses and complain.
Studies show that these differences are attributable in large part due to extra time studying. We've known this for at least a decade.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

If you don't want to study until past midnight every night, then don't complain that the ones that do get into better schools than you.

Academic ability as it applies to SATs only! SATs are only one factor.

It is the single most predictive factor and correlates with pretty much every other important factor.

What are the SAT scores of the CEOs of Fortune 100 companies?

Not sure what that has to do with academic ability but give me a name, I'll give you an SAT score range.

Based on what?

Colleges aren’t trying to pump out the best test takers.

You guys act like test scores are just a measure of some highly trainable but otherwise useless niche ability like being good at rubics cube or something. Don't let the princeton review ads fool you, standardized tests don't just test your ability to take standardized tests. They have highly predictive value, there is no real controversy about this among psychologists. There is about as much controversy about this as there is about global warming. The only people who don't believe it are people with an agenda to pursue. In this case racists who want to keep discriminating on the basis of race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv_Cr1a6rj4

Strawman. I didn’t say that.

Academic strength is one data point. The point is that it’s not the only attribute that is desirable.

You said colleges aren't just trying to pump out test takers so i thought you were saying that being good at tests only means you are good at tests.

If you are saying that colleges want something more than good students when picking students, I guess that's OK but they can't pick them based on race.

Go to bed. You definitely need some sleep. More nonsensical with each post.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Pull up pictures of students at best college in China, Japan etc. Notice zero diversity.

Same at the best universities in most countries. Nigeria's best college is almost entirely black. india's best colleges are almost entirely indian. France's best colleges are almost entirely white. Etc.

Diversity simply isn't that important for learning.

Less than 0.5% of India is foreign born. So, does that mean it’s fine if we exclude based on that basis?

You certainly don't have to lower standards to get proportional representation.

Sorbonne is actually fairly diverse. Similar demographics to US schools in terms of black population. Not sure why you would think otherwise.

If so, they are able to achieve that without racial preferences. Just a test score.

It’s 55000 students with a 30% acceptance rate. A number of programs require a personal statement.

Your high school transcript is most important, followed by test scores.

And the racial preferences?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Colleges can look at how race affects someone on an individual level:
“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise”
-John Roberts

You should read the rest of that paragraph. It goes on to say you can't use the essays as a way to get around the prohibition against racial discrimination.

Did you read it?

“ A benefit to a student who overcame racial discrimination, for example, must be tied to that student's courage and determination. Or a benefit to a student whose heritage or culture motivated him or her to assume a leadership role or attain a particular goal must be tied to that student's unique ability to contribute to the university. In other words, the student must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual—not on the basis of race,”


As I said, colleges can look at how race affects someone on an individual level.

I agree, but the suspicion is that they are using the essays to try and figure out people's race.

I was talking about the part that said you can't use essays as way of identifying a student's race to do something that is prohibited.
What cannot be done directly cannot be done indirectly.

NP: if applicants are allowed to discuss how race has impacted their life (positive or negative), how can universities avoid using essays to evaluate students as individuals when the essay is the way to share this information?

I think the lawsuit intends to identify applications that gave some indication of race and match them up with similar applications that didn't mention race and see if any patterns emerge. The patterns were pretty obvious in the SFFA case.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Pull up pictures of students at best college in China, Japan etc. Notice zero diversity.

Same at the best universities in most countries. Nigeria's best college is almost entirely black. india's best colleges are almost entirely indian. France's best colleges are almost entirely white. Etc.

Diversity simply isn't that important for learning.

In the United States of America, it is - and for the elite colleges that are gateways to upward mobility- it should be.

The top 5 HBCUs have done more for the black middle class we see today than the entire Ivy+ combined.

Asian Americans are part of this diversity. Yes, and URMs too.

Sure, but the constitution prohibits admissions based on race so let me know when you have amended the 14th amendment to the constitution.

Under holistic admissions ( please look it up...don't be ignorant), admissions are not based on race. Never was.

Doesn't matter. Morehouse isn't diverse and yet (together with howard) they produce more black law school students than the entire ivy league. They do this without the benefits of diversity.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What minority has comprised 10 to 20 percent of Japan's population?

From the late 1800 to the end of WWII Koreans comprised more than that.

In other words, for nearly the last century, the U.S. has been nowhere near as ethnically homogeneous as Japan.

That sounds about right. Japan is a very homogenous society. Most countries are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The slight drop in accepted Asians is less than the increase in accepted unknown race category. Probably most of that unchecked race category are Asian. I think this SFFA is getting ridiculous.

Yes, this is my theory too. My South Asian DC checked the Other box when she applied last year.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Colleges can look at how race affects someone on an individual level:
“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise”
-John Roberts

You should read the rest of that paragraph. It goes on to say you can't use the essays as a way to get around the prohibition against racial discrimination.

Did you read it?

“ A benefit to a student who overcame racial discrimination, for example, must be tied to that student's courage and determination. Or a benefit to a student whose heritage or culture motivated him or her to assume a leadership role or attain a particular goal must be tied to that student's unique ability to contribute to the university. In other words, the student must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual—not on the basis of race,”


As I said, colleges can look at how race affects someone on an individual level.

I agree, but the suspicion is that they are using the essays to try and figure out people's race.

I was talking about the part that said you can't use essays as way of identifying a student's race to do something that is prohibited.
What cannot be done directly cannot be done indirectly.

NP: if applicants are allowed to discuss how race has impacted their life (positive or negative), how can universities avoid using essays to evaluate students as individuals when the essay is the way to share this information?

I think the lawsuit intends to identify applications that gave some indication of race and match them up with similar applications that didn't mention race and see if any patterns emerge. The patterns were pretty obvious in the SFFA case.

I understand, but that doesn't answer the question. Seems like a catch-22 situation to me. Also, what pattern would they look for? An applicant just mentioned race vs mentioned race within the context of "how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise." The first is obviously against the law and I would assume that schools aren't that stupid. Is the second scenario legally allowed? (I'm not a lawyer and trying to understand what the SC/Roberts actually said). Wouldn't the smart thing to do is to accept non-URM students at equal rates that wrote similar essays about their heritage/culture motivate/affected their individual experiences?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pull up pictures of students at best college in China, Japan etc. Notice zero diversity.

Same at the best universities in most countries. Nigeria's best college is almost entirely black. india's best colleges are almost entirely indian. France's best colleges are almost entirely white. Etc.

Diversity simply isn't that important for learning.

It probably isn’t as important in homogeneous countries. Here is the US it’s important and many people value it.

The US was a very homogenous country until relatively recently, and could still go back to that. But for some reason that homogeneity was considered a problem whereas it's not in say, Japan.

Simply not true. The US had always had many black people from the very beginning. Not to mention the native Americans who were already here.

There were called minorities for a reason. Obviously this is very true.

You’re kidding right? Black people used to make up higher percentages of the US and have slowly dropped over time as immigration increased.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pull up pictures of students at best college in China, Japan etc. Notice zero diversity.

Same at the best universities in most countries. Nigeria's best college is almost entirely black. india's best colleges are almost entirely indian. France's best colleges are almost entirely white. Etc.

Diversity simply isn't that important for learning.

It probably isn’t as important in homogeneous countries. Here is the US it’s important and many people value it.

+1
My kid is at TJ, has a 4+ GPA, scored over 1500 on SATs. White.

I don't know why you think your white kids gives you any moral authority to bless racial discrimination against asians but it doesn't.

Because of the diversity of THIS country and our history with it diversity is important to a lot of people. Personally I don’t know how important it is in the classroom but I do think it’s important that elite institutions try to make themselves look more like America (not exactly matching it but striving toward diversity within them). This is better for the country than groups being shut out.

Their failure to meet the bar in something approaching their proportion in the population does not mean they are being shut out.

As crazy making as the college process is nowadays I want zero part of those foreign high stakes systems where everything hinges on how you score on the big exam. If you LIKE that system, go to college THERE! every other country uses it. Leave the US system to be unique in picking a broad student body.

No thank you. I will stay right here and fight to eliminate racial discrimination against asians.
It is wild that so many people get mad that people are fighting racism.
Like southern segregationist mad.

I included what race my kid is for context - same reason I included their stats. My kid would benefit from a more single minded focus on just stats.

But again I don’t think a test stats only selection process for elite colleges is something most Americans want to see implemented.

I’m not a segregationist for crying out loud. 🙄 But nor do I think high stats kids “own” all the spots at elite schools just because of their test stats. Schools want a broad student body and are motivated to look beyond just test stats to get there.

[Anonymous]

Why is this board full of people utterly obsessed with admissions to about 50 colleges? The wealthiest, happiest people I know went to colleges that are not selective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges can look at how race affects someone on an individual level:
“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise”
-John Roberts

You should read the rest of that paragraph. It goes on to say you can't use the essays as a way to get around the prohibition against racial discrimination.

Did you read it?

“ A benefit to a student who overcame racial discrimination, for example, must be tied to that student's courage and determination. Or a benefit to a student whose heritage or culture motivated him or her to assume a leadership role or attain a particular goal must be tied to that student's unique ability to contribute to the university. In other words, the student must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual—not on the basis of race,”


As I said, colleges can look at how race affects someone on an individual level.

I agree, but the suspicion is that they are using the essays to try and figure out people's race.

I was talking about the part that said you can't use essays as way of identifying a student's race to do something that is prohibited.
What cannot be done directly cannot be done indirectly.

NP: if applicants are allowed to discuss how race has impacted their life (positive or negative), how can universities avoid using essays to evaluate students as individuals when the essay is the way to share this information?

I think the lawsuit intends to identify applications that gave some indication of race and match them up with similar applications that didn't mention race and see if any patterns emerge. The patterns were pretty obvious in the SFFA case.

I understand, but that doesn't answer the question. Seems like a catch-22 situation to me. Also, what pattern would they look for? An applicant just mentioned race vs mentioned race within the context of "how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise." The first is obviously against the law and I would assume that schools aren't that stupid. Is the second scenario legally allowed? (I'm not a lawyer and trying to understand what the SC/Roberts actually said). Wouldn't the smart thing to do is to accept non-URM students at equal rates that wrote similar essays about their heritage/culture motivate/affected their individual experiences?

Same as Harvard case

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is this board full of people utterly obsessed with admissions to about 50 colleges? The wealthiest, happiest people I know went to colleges that are not selective.

Why are you obsessed with other people's interest?
Go live your life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

As crazy making as the college process is nowadays I want zero part of those foreign high stakes systems where everything hinges on how you score on the big exam. If you LIKE that system, go to college THERE! every other country uses it. Leave the US system to be unique in picking a broad student body.

No thank you. I will stay right here and fight to eliminate racial discrimination against asians.
It is wild that so many people get mad that people are fighting racism.
Like southern segregationist mad.

Race is gone from admissions. And since we are saying our kids are all born here, let's just say "Americans" and not "asians" now. My neighbor is ukrainian and her kids are just Americans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

As crazy making as the college process is nowadays I want zero part of those foreign high stakes systems where everything hinges on how you score on the big exam. If you LIKE that system, go to college THERE! every other country uses it. Leave the US system to be unique in picking a broad student body.

No thank you. I will stay right here and fight to eliminate racial discrimination against asians.
It is wild that so many people get mad that people are fighting racism.
Like southern segregationist mad.

Race is gone from admissions. And since we are saying our kids are all born here, let's just say "Americans" and not "asians" now. My neighbor is ukrainian and her kids are just Americans.

Race is gone from the nation (illegalized long time ago).
It still exists, you hear about it all the time, lawsuits are everywhere.
In fact, schools are encouraging to write about it in essays LOL SORRY LOL

These schools are notorious about thinking they are above the laws and can do whatever they want.
They need to be monitored, check, and sued for the foreseeable future.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

As crazy making as the college process is nowadays I want zero part of those foreign high stakes systems where everything hinges on how you score on the big exam. If you LIKE that system, go to college THERE! every other country uses it. Leave the US system to be unique in picking a broad student body.

No thank you. I will stay right here and fight to eliminate racial discrimination against asians.
It is wild that so many people get mad that people are fighting racism.
Like southern segregationist mad.

Race is gone from admissions. And since we are saying our kids are all born here, let's just say "Americans" and not "asians" now. My neighbor is ukrainian and her kids are just Americans.

Race is gone from the nation (illegalized long time ago).
It still exists, you hear about it all the time, lawsuits are everywhere.
In fact, schools are encouraging to write about it in essays LOL SORRY LOL

These schools are notorious about thinking they are above the laws and can do whatever they want.
They need to be monitored, check, and sued for the foreseeable future.

Removing the box doesn’t eliminate racism from society. Announcing on an anonymous forum that racism is over is so trite. We have a Presidential candidate who is openly hostile to immigrants and says some of the most racist things so I’m not sure how bigotry and racism are gone?