Question about the homophobia thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What happens when you’re wrong? What happens when it turns out a teenage girl was suffering typical teenage girl angst, and she was given a mastectomy that removed her breasts and cross-sex hormones that permanently deepened her voice and gave her facial hair?

What happens when you’re wrong and a young man with internalized homophobia has his penis and testicles removed and later realized it was a mistake? He’s been castrated and regrets it.

What do you say to them then?

Did anyone answer this?

Plenty of people detransition, and from what I see, they aren’t embraced by the trans community. That’s concerning.

Can you cite some sources that plenty of people detransition? What is plenty in this case?

There are plenty of people with detrans stories on r/detrans.

Also, there are a few people who were public about their detransition and the resultant negative reaction from trans activists.

I just don’t understand why detransitioners are looked at so negatively by activists. TBH, that’s exactly what makes the trans community look like a cult.

All of that said, the volume of detransitioners isn’t the point. The point is that they are dumped on and criticized once they leave the trans community. Why?


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/01/detransition-transgender-nonbinary-gender-affirming-care/672745/

Why? I think it’s because they are putting out messaging that stokes transphobia in an already transphobic society. Because when you have politicians creating laws trying to limit healthcare options for a group of people, trying to make it illegal for them to read to children, or for books mentioning that they exist not to be allowed in schools, having someone come out and talk about how they were tricked into being part of that group brings out more negativity toward that group. It makes trans people less safe.

There’s no way to confirm or disprove these stories either. It’s not like the doctors can tell their side without hipaa violations. Someone is suing my child’s endocrinologist and the experience they tell about is the exact opposite of ours. I’m not saying they’re lying, but it seems a little strange to me. I’m not going to try to seek revenge on that person for detransitioning. I don’t care how they express their gender or how they identify. I hope they figure it out and find a way to be happy. But I’ll never support someone who tries to reduce my child’s access to healthcare, whether it’s supporting politicians who want to legislate that, trying to sue doctors and drive them out of practice, or trying to convince people their experience with gender identity is universal and it shouldn’t be a personal decision between patients and doctors.

You really think that patient doesn't have a legit reason to sue their endocrinologist? You're not helping your narrative if you claim that someone who has transitioned and then detransitioned is stoking transphobia - just by existing and standing up for their rights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What happens when you’re wrong? What happens when it turns out a teenage girl was suffering typical teenage girl angst, and she was given a mastectomy that removed her breasts and cross-sex hormones that permanently deepened her voice and gave her facial hair?

What happens when you’re wrong and a young man with internalized homophobia has his penis and testicles removed and later realized it was a mistake? He’s been castrated and regrets it.

What do you say to them then?

Did anyone answer this?

Plenty of people detransition, and from what I see, they aren’t embraced by the trans community. That’s concerning.

Why should detrans folks be embraced by the trans community? That’s like asking why your old church friends don’t want to hang out any more after you start loudly declaiming your atheism and trying to convince them God isn’t real every time they interact with you. The church community is for people who are part of the church. The trans community is for people who are trans. Which detrans people are quick to tell you they are not.

Plenty of church communities are welcoming to former members, don’t threaten them, don’t harass them. The ones that don’t are generally called “cults.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What happens when you’re wrong? What happens when it turns out a teenage girl was suffering typical teenage girl angst, and she was given a mastectomy that removed her breasts and cross-sex hormones that permanently deepened her voice and gave her facial hair?

What happens when you’re wrong and a young man with internalized homophobia has his penis and testicles removed and later realized it was a mistake? He’s been castrated and regrets it.

What do you say to them then?

Did anyone answer this?

Plenty of people detransition, and from what I see, they aren’t embraced by the trans community. That’s concerning.

Why should detrans folks be embraced by the trans community? That’s like asking why your old church friends don’t want to hang out any more after you start loudly declaiming your atheism and trying to convince them God isn’t real every time they interact with you. The church community is for people who are part of the church. The trans community is for people who are trans. Which detrans people are quick to tell you they are not.

Plenty of church communities are welcoming to former members, don’t threaten them, don’t harass them. The ones that don’t are generally called “cults.”

^Absolutely this.

Plus, the PP’s comparison of the trans community to a church is super weird anyway.

[Anonymous]

It’s also extremely notable that no one answered the original question about, “What happens when you’re wrong?”

[Anonymous]

If you spend any time on r/detrans you’ll see many detransitioners feel like they were young and impressionable children when they were put on puberty blockers, estrogen, testosterone….or when they had sex-reassignment surgery.

It’s pretty tragic.

“What happens when you’re wrong?”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s also extremely notable that no one answered the original question about, “What happens when you’re wrong?”

Then they are wrong. (In the very few instances where this happens)

That doesn’t give you the right to take away their autonomy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What happens when you’re wrong? What happens when it turns out a teenage girl was suffering typical teenage girl angst, and she was given a mastectomy that removed her breasts and cross-sex hormones that permanently deepened her voice and gave her facial hair?

What happens when you’re wrong and a young man with internalized homophobia has his penis and testicles removed and later realized it was a mistake? He’s been castrated and regrets it.

What do you say to them then?

Did anyone answer this?

Plenty of people detransition, and from what I see, they aren’t embraced by the trans community. That’s concerning.

Can you cite some sources that plenty of people detransition? What is plenty in this case?

There are plenty of people with detrans stories on r/detrans.

Also, there are a few people who were public about their detransition and the resultant negative reaction from trans activists.

I just don’t understand why detransitioners are looked at so negatively by activists. TBH, that’s exactly what makes the trans community look like a cult.

All of that said, the volume of detransitioners isn’t the point. The point is that they are dumped on and criticized once they leave the trans community. Why?


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/01/detransition-transgender-nonbinary-gender-affirming-care/672745/

Why? I think it’s because they are putting out messaging that stokes transphobia in an already transphobic society. Because when you have politicians creating laws trying to limit healthcare options for a group of people, trying to make it illegal for them to read to children, or for books mentioning that they exist not to be allowed in schools, having someone come out and talk about how they were tricked into being part of that group brings out more negativity toward that group. It makes trans people less safe.

There’s no way to confirm or disprove these stories either. It’s not like the doctors can tell their side without hipaa violations. Someone is suing my child’s endocrinologist and the experience they tell about is the exact opposite of ours. I’m not saying they’re lying, but it seems a little strange to me. I’m not going to try to seek revenge on that person for detransitioning. I don’t care how they express their gender or how they identify. I hope they figure it out and find a way to be happy. But I’ll never support someone who tries to reduce my child’s access to healthcare, whether it’s supporting politicians who want to legislate that, trying to sue doctors and drive them out of practice, or trying to convince people their experience with gender identity is universal and it shouldn’t be a personal decision between patients and doctors.

You really think that patient doesn't have a legit reason to sue their endocrinologist? You're not helping your narrative if you claim that someone who has transitioned and then detransitioned is stoking transphobia - just by existing and standing up for their rights.

I never said that. I just don’t believe the doctor pressured them the way they’re suggesting they did. It’s not at all the experience we had at any of our visits. She was always caring and thoughtful, discussed options at length, always made sure we were comfortable with the treatment plan, and we were informed about side effects. The idea of her (or any of the team there) pressuring children to change genders when they weren’t sure or didn’t want to seems absurd based on our experience over the last several years. I can’t help questioning their judgment and motives.

It bugs me that all someone has to do is say they felt pressured and the entire anti trans community backs them based on that statement without knowing anyone involved or knowing the treatment process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What happens when you’re wrong? What happens when it turns out a teenage girl was suffering typical teenage girl angst, and she was given a mastectomy that removed her breasts and cross-sex hormones that permanently deepened her voice and gave her facial hair?

What happens when you’re wrong and a young man with internalized homophobia has his penis and testicles removed and later realized it was a mistake? He’s been castrated and regrets it.

What do you say to them then?

Did anyone answer this?

Plenty of people detransition, and from what I see, they aren’t embraced by the trans community. That’s concerning.

Why should detrans folks be embraced by the trans community? That’s like asking why your old church friends don’t want to hang out any more after you start loudly declaiming your atheism and trying to convince them God isn’t real every time they interact with you. The church community is for people who are part of the church. The trans community is for people who are trans. Which detrans people are quick to tell you they are not.

Plenty of church communities are welcoming to former members, don’t threaten them, don’t harass them. The ones that don’t are generally called “cults.”

Sure plenty of communities (church, trans, really any at all) are friendly to non-members. Most communities (church, trans, school, what have you) are not super friendly or supportive of ex-members who go around declaring that the community is manipulative/terrible/evil/caused all their problems. I don’t think anyone should be harassed or threatened but I also think PP’s demand that the trans community should support detrans people is pretty ridiculous and contrary to human nature.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it isn’t a mental health issue, it’s considered cosmetic and therefor should not be covered by insurance

Circumcision is covered, so is breast reconstruction, so is a million other things but we cover it. Why aren’t you outraged about that?

Breast reconstruction isn’t covered for women who mistakenly believed they were trans as teens and had mastectomies.

Way to miss the point. Reconstructions aren’t medically necessary for women who had cancer either. We cover them because we know how important it is for a woman to feel like a woman.

Because there is an obvious biological component to being a woman that induces certain feelings that no biological man could ever experience or imagine.

Was that your experience as a transgender woman?

Are you saying a trans woman knows what it feels like to menstruate? To go through post pardum depression? To have a miscarriage? To have hot flashes? Please explain.

I’m saying you have no idea what it’s like to be a transgender woman.

And FYI those experiences do not define women.

And what feelings exactly do trans women have that make them women? I get that this is an incendiary question but isn’t it a logical one?

Do you ask all women that question?

There are no universal “feelings” for being a woman.

That’s because being a woman is defined by chromosomes and biology- not “feelings.”

You’re referring to sex.

Here you go:

No sweetheart I’m not. Sex, chromosomes and biology define a woman, which is simply an adult human female. There is no such thing as gender, except in the realm of languages

Are all of the bigots this ignorant?

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1
“Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.”

So my sincere question is - if gender is defined by norms, behaviors and roles, why does a transgender male need to have his breasts removed? They are merely a biological part of their anatomy. It seems like that makes a person transsex- they want the biological anatomy of the sex they identify with.

Anyone?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it isn’t a mental health issue, it’s considered cosmetic and therefor should not be covered by insurance

Circumcision is covered, so is breast reconstruction, so is a million other things but we cover it. Why aren’t you outraged about that?

Breast reconstruction isn’t covered for women who mistakenly believed they were trans as teens and had mastectomies.

Way to miss the point. Reconstructions aren’t medically necessary for women who had cancer either. We cover them because we know how important it is for a woman to feel like a woman.

Because there is an obvious biological component to being a woman that induces certain feelings that no biological man could ever experience or imagine.

Was that your experience as a transgender woman?

Are you saying a trans woman knows what it feels like to menstruate? To go through post pardum depression? To have a miscarriage? To have hot flashes? Please explain.

I’m saying you have no idea what it’s like to be a transgender woman.

And FYI those experiences do not define women.

And what feelings exactly do trans women have that make them women? I get that this is an incendiary question but isn’t it a logical one?

Do you ask all women that question?

There are no universal “feelings” for being a woman.

That’s because being a woman is defined by chromosomes and biology- not “feelings.”

You’re referring to sex.

Here you go:

No sweetheart I’m not. Sex, chromosomes and biology define a woman, which is simply an adult human female. There is no such thing as gender, except in the realm of languages

Are all of the bigots this ignorant?

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1
“Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.”

So my sincere question is - if gender is defined by norms, behaviors and roles, why does a transgender male need to have his breasts removed? They are merely a biological part of their anatomy. It seems like that makes a person transsex- they want the biological anatomy of the sex they identify with.

Anyone?

Nope, you win, you've exhausted everyone who might have responded so you must be right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it isn’t a mental health issue, it’s considered cosmetic and therefor should not be covered by insurance

Circumcision is covered, so is breast reconstruction, so is a million other things but we cover it. Why aren’t you outraged about that?

Breast reconstruction isn’t covered for women who mistakenly believed they were trans as teens and had mastectomies.

Way to miss the point. Reconstructions aren’t medically necessary for women who had cancer either. We cover them because we know how important it is for a woman to feel like a woman.

Because there is an obvious biological component to being a woman that induces certain feelings that no biological man could ever experience or imagine.

Was that your experience as a transgender woman?

Are you saying a trans woman knows what it feels like to menstruate? To go through post pardum depression? To have a miscarriage? To have hot flashes? Please explain.

I’m saying you have no idea what it’s like to be a transgender woman.

And FYI those experiences do not define women.

And what feelings exactly do trans women have that make them women? I get that this is an incendiary question but isn’t it a logical one?

Do you ask all women that question?

There are no universal “feelings” for being a woman.

That’s because being a woman is defined by chromosomes and biology- not “feelings.”

You’re referring to sex.

Here you go:

No sweetheart I’m not. Sex, chromosomes and biology define a woman, which is simply an adult human female. There is no such thing as gender, except in the realm of languages

Are all of the bigots this ignorant?

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1
“Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.”

So my sincere question is - if gender is defined by norms, behaviors and roles, why does a transgender male need to have his breasts removed? They are merely a biological part of their anatomy. It seems like that makes a person transsex- they want the biological anatomy of the sex they identify with.

Anyone?

Nope, you win, you've exhausted everyone who might have responded so you must be right.

I asked a sincere question. I’m sorry you don’t have an answer.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it isn’t a mental health issue, it’s considered cosmetic and therefor should not be covered by insurance

Circumcision is covered, so is breast reconstruction, so is a million other things but we cover it. Why aren’t you outraged about that?

Breast reconstruction isn’t covered for women who mistakenly believed they were trans as teens and had mastectomies.

Way to miss the point. Reconstructions aren’t medically necessary for women who had cancer either. We cover them because we know how important it is for a woman to feel like a woman.

Because there is an obvious biological component to being a woman that induces certain feelings that no biological man could ever experience or imagine.

Was that your experience as a transgender woman?

Are you saying a trans woman knows what it feels like to menstruate? To go through post pardum depression? To have a miscarriage? To have hot flashes? Please explain.

I’m saying you have no idea what it’s like to be a transgender woman.

And FYI those experiences do not define women.

And what feelings exactly do trans women have that make them women? I get that this is an incendiary question but isn’t it a logical one?

Do you ask all women that question?

There are no universal “feelings” for being a woman.

That’s because being a woman is defined by chromosomes and biology- not “feelings.”

You’re referring to sex.

Here you go:

No sweetheart I’m not. Sex, chromosomes and biology define a woman, which is simply an adult human female. There is no such thing as gender, except in the realm of languages

Are all of the bigots this ignorant?

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1
“Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.”

So my sincere question is - if gender is defined by norms, behaviors and roles, why does a transgender male need to have his breasts removed? They are merely a biological part of their anatomy. It seems like that makes a person transsex- they want the biological anatomy of the sex they identify with.

Anyone?

Most transgender males do not need to have their breasts removed. Most transitions are purely social. How people transition (most transitions are not medical) and their reasons for doing so are personal and each individual has their own reasons for doing so. None of us can answer as to "why" on their behalf.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it isn’t a mental health issue, it’s considered cosmetic and therefor should not be covered by insurance

Circumcision is covered, so is breast reconstruction, so is a million other things but we cover it. Why aren’t you outraged about that?

Breast reconstruction isn’t covered for women who mistakenly believed they were trans as teens and had mastectomies.

Way to miss the point. Reconstructions aren’t medically necessary for women who had cancer either. We cover them because we know how important it is for a woman to feel like a woman.

Because there is an obvious biological component to being a woman that induces certain feelings that no biological man could ever experience or imagine.

Was that your experience as a transgender woman?

Are you saying a trans woman knows what it feels like to menstruate? To go through post pardum depression? To have a miscarriage? To have hot flashes? Please explain.

I’m saying you have no idea what it’s like to be a transgender woman.

And FYI those experiences do not define women.

And what feelings exactly do trans women have that make them women? I get that this is an incendiary question but isn’t it a logical one?

Do you ask all women that question?

There are no universal “feelings” for being a woman.

That’s because being a woman is defined by chromosomes and biology- not “feelings.”

You’re referring to sex.

Here you go:

No sweetheart I’m not. Sex, chromosomes and biology define a woman, which is simply an adult human female. There is no such thing as gender, except in the realm of languages

Are all of the bigots this ignorant?

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1
“Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.”

I know that’s what it says I’m your women’s gender studies book. But that is an incorrect, made up definition

That link is from the World Health Organization, I’d say that they have more credibility than an anonymous bigot.

Of course you would. It still means nothing.

The original poster of this thread asked why we can't have discussions on topics such as this. Posters like you are the reason why. There is nothing to discuss with you. There is no evidence that can change your mind. Therefore, I would kindly ask that you withdraw from this discussion so that those with less closed minds can continue.

Serious question: How can anyone feel that a world health organization has credibility if they put North Korea in a decision-making position, seeing how badly they treat their own people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What happens when you’re wrong? What happens when it turns out a teenage girl was suffering typical teenage girl angst, and she was given a mastectomy that removed her breasts and cross-sex hormones that permanently deepened her voice and gave her facial hair?

What happens when you’re wrong and a young man with internalized homophobia has his penis and testicles removed and later realized it was a mistake? He’s been castrated and regrets it.

What do you say to them then?

Did anyone answer this?

Plenty of people detransition, and from what I see, they aren’t embraced by the trans community. That’s concerning.

In fact, they are horribly bullied.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s also extremely notable that no one answered the original question about, “What happens when you’re wrong?”

Then they are wrong. (In the very few instances where this happens)

That doesn’t give you the right to take away their autonomy.

There are over 47,000 subscribers to the detrans subreddit. I don’t think this is as rare a situation as you believe it to be.

With the current treatment model being “affirmation only”, once a child expresses the sentiment that they believe they are trans, the medical and therapeutical community take them at their word. This prevents the child from exploring other reasons for their feelings of confusion over their feelings.

Young people are still figuring themselves out. Medication and surgery should be a last resort and only applied after developing a deep understanding of the child’s mental health issues. That’s not how it’s working today.