Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Women who sincerely believe that men are irrelevant and useless, and who are in an economic position to accurately say this, are a very small percentage of the overall population, maybe top 1-2%. 99% of women, ESPECIALLY of child bearing age, are not wealthy enough and will never be wealthy enough to comfortably care for children without outside help. The welfare state helps somewhat with this but at the end of the day nobody who makes the typical young single female salary of like 50k/yr can raise a family on that. Most women need men if they want kids, and even without kids most women are too poor to live a decent lifestyle without a second income. A few rich women bragging about their self made millions on here and dissing the male gender doesn’t change the cold hard truth that the average woman is broke AF.

Even then, men still predominately develop the technologies, fight the wars, do the dirty odd jobs, construction and other thankless jobs and work the law enforcement that make their lives so comfortable in the first place. These men are nameless and faceless to these corporate, rent seeking drones until they need them or something goes wrong though. Calling men irrelevant just shows how far up their own arses these women are. Congrats on making partner!!

Women perform the thankless jobs of childcare, nursing, cooking, teaching, cleaning and are the ones who give birth.

Why can’t we just admit that both genders perform essential tasks and more or less need one another to live a happy, healthy, prosperous life (outside of a few delusional elites who can insulate themselves from reality with $$$)

People perform essential tasks. They shouldn't be limited to certain tasks based on their sex organs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women who sincerely believe that men are irrelevant and useless, and who are in an economic position to accurately say this, are a very small percentage of the overall population, maybe top 1-2%. 99% of women, ESPECIALLY of child bearing age, are not wealthy enough and will never be wealthy enough to comfortably care for children without outside help. The welfare state helps somewhat with this but at the end of the day nobody who makes the typical young single female salary of like 50k/yr can raise a family on that. Most women need men if they want kids, and even without kids most women are too poor to live a decent lifestyle without a second income. A few rich women bragging about their self made millions on here and dissing the male gender doesn’t change the cold hard truth that the average woman is broke AF.

Even then, men still predominately develop the technologies, fight the wars, do the dirty odd jobs, construction and other thankless jobs and work the law enforcement that make their lives so comfortable in the first place. These men are nameless and faceless to these corporate, rent seeking drones until they need them or something goes wrong though. Calling men irrelevant just shows how far up their own arses these women are. Congrats on making partner!!

Women perform the thankless jobs of childcare, nursing, cooking, teaching, cleaning and are the ones who give birth.

Why can’t we just admit that both genders perform essential tasks and more or less need one another to live a happy, healthy, prosperous life (outside of a few delusional elites who can insulate themselves from reality with $$$)

People perform essential tasks. They shouldn't be limited to certain tasks based on their sex organs.

But they aren't. There is no limitation. That doesn't mean certain things that are based on their sex organs are off limits. Being able to work out of the house doesn't mean you now can't work in the house anymore.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Wrong. Marital rape was outlawed in the last state only in 1993.

Which was more than 25 years ago. And those states were outliers by that time. None of which answers the question about whether feminism has been making the lives of women happier or less happy over the last 25 years despite my anecdotal (and possibly incorrect) sense that - in terms of gender issues, women seem miserable.

What do you base this on?

Honestly, the forums here and Reddit are a big part of my sense. When discussing anything to do with men and women, gender, relationships, marriage, sex, and pretty much any aspect of society as differentiated based on gender, the women offering commentary seem to range from sad or disappointed all the way to furious. Whatever progress has been made doesn't seem to be making anyone happy.

Men on Reddit seem to desperately want to believe that women (especially single childfree women) are miserable.

Are you happier than your mothers and grandmothers?

I'm a guy and think I'm way happier than my father and grandfather were. I think I have feminism to thank for at least some of that. I spend more time with my kids both because it's more expected and my wife's job/income gives me more time to do so. I'm more free to show emotion other than anger. I'm less focused on proving my masculinity.

But I'm not sure that my wife, sisters, or mother are any happier with their lot in life than my grandmother was.

I'm much happier than my mother and grandmother and I have a healthier relationship with my spouse/kids. I never felt limited or defined by my gender.

I was able to finish HS, go to college, and even grad school in a historically male-dominated field. I wasn't limited to a few (low-paying) jobs even if they weren't a good fit. I wasn't stuck in a forced marriage and drank away my sorrows. My career wasn't limited when my kids were born. I have a spouse who equally shares family responsibilities. We share all of the joy and the pains. We are much closer than my parents were or my grandparents were; we are truly partners. Our jobs, interests, responsibilities are independent of gender roles - in some ways that we wouldn't even have done even 10-15 years ago. We are vulnerable with each other and also rationally share our emotions/dreams/frustrations. We are happily not defined by traditional gender roles.

+1. Women have things so much better than they used to. It’s not even close. We should thank our mothers & grandmothers (and the men who were on their sides) for bringing us out of the dark ages. There’s still work to be done, but they already did the heavy lifting for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women who sincerely believe that men are irrelevant and useless, and who are in an economic position to accurately say this, are a very small percentage of the overall population, maybe top 1-2%. 99% of women, ESPECIALLY of child bearing age, are not wealthy enough and will never be wealthy enough to comfortably care for children without outside help. The welfare state helps somewhat with this but at the end of the day nobody who makes the typical young single female salary of like 50k/yr can raise a family on that. Most women need men if they want kids, and even without kids most women are too poor to live a decent lifestyle without a second income. A few rich women bragging about their self made millions on here and dissing the male gender doesn’t change the cold hard truth that the average woman is broke AF.

Even then, men still predominately develop the technologies, fight the wars, do the dirty odd jobs, construction and other thankless jobs and work the law enforcement that make their lives so comfortable in the first place. These men are nameless and faceless to these corporate, rent seeking drones until they need them or something goes wrong though. Calling men irrelevant just shows how far up their own arses these women are. Congrats on making partner!!

Women perform the thankless jobs of childcare, nursing, cooking, teaching, cleaning and are the ones who give birth.

Why can’t we just admit that both genders perform essential tasks and more or less need one another to live a happy, healthy, prosperous life (outside of a few delusional elites who can insulate themselves from reality with $$$)

People perform essential tasks. They shouldn't be limited to certain tasks based on their sex organs.

But they aren't. There is no limitation. That doesn't mean certain things that are based on their sex organs are off limits. Being able to work out of the house doesn't mean you now can't work in the house anymore.

There is in “traditional gender roles”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women who sincerely believe that men are irrelevant and useless, and who are in an economic position to accurately say this, are a very small percentage of the overall population, maybe top 1-2%. 99% of women, ESPECIALLY of child bearing age, are not wealthy enough and will never be wealthy enough to comfortably care for children without outside help. The welfare state helps somewhat with this but at the end of the day nobody who makes the typical young single female salary of like 50k/yr can raise a family on that. Most women need men if they want kids, and even without kids most women are too poor to live a decent lifestyle without a second income. A few rich women bragging about their self made millions on here and dissing the male gender doesn’t change the cold hard truth that the average woman is broke AF.

Even then, men still predominately develop the technologies, fight the wars, do the dirty odd jobs, construction and other thankless jobs and work the law enforcement that make their lives so comfortable in the first place. These men are nameless and faceless to these corporate, rent seeking drones until they need them or something goes wrong though. Calling men irrelevant just shows how far up their own arses these women are. Congrats on making partner!!

Women perform the thankless jobs of childcare, nursing, cooking, teaching, cleaning and are the ones who give birth.

Why can’t we just admit that both genders perform essential tasks and more or less need one another to live a happy, healthy, prosperous life (outside of a few delusional elites who can insulate themselves from reality with $$$)

People perform essential tasks. They shouldn't be limited to certain tasks based on their sex organs.

But they aren't. There is no limitation. That doesn't mean certain things that are based on their sex organs are off limits. Being able to work out of the house doesn't mean you now can't work in the house anymore.

There is in “traditional gender roles”.

And out. According to you, the minute a mom thinks maybe she should make dinner, it's time to think about going out so she's not stuck in the house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women who sincerely believe that men are irrelevant and useless, and who are in an economic position to accurately say this, are a very small percentage of the overall population, maybe top 1-2%. 99% of women, ESPECIALLY of child bearing age, are not wealthy enough and will never be wealthy enough to comfortably care for children without outside help. The welfare state helps somewhat with this but at the end of the day nobody who makes the typical young single female salary of like 50k/yr can raise a family on that. Most women need men if they want kids, and even without kids most women are too poor to live a decent lifestyle without a second income. A few rich women bragging about their self made millions on here and dissing the male gender doesn’t change the cold hard truth that the average woman is broke AF.

Even then, men still predominately develop the technologies, fight the wars, do the dirty odd jobs, construction and other thankless jobs and work the law enforcement that make their lives so comfortable in the first place. These men are nameless and faceless to these corporate, rent seeking drones until they need them or something goes wrong though. Calling men irrelevant just shows how far up their own arses these women are. Congrats on making partner!!

Women perform the thankless jobs of childcare, nursing, cooking, teaching, cleaning and are the ones who give birth.

Why can’t we just admit that both genders perform essential tasks and more or less need one another to live a happy, healthy, prosperous life (outside of a few delusional elites who can insulate themselves from reality with $$$)

People perform essential tasks. They shouldn't be limited to certain tasks based on their sex organs.

But they aren't. There is no limitation. That doesn't mean certain things that are based on their sex organs are off limits. Being able to work out of the house doesn't mean you now can't work in the house anymore.

There is in “traditional gender roles”.

And out. According to you, the minute a mom thinks maybe she should make dinner, it's time to think about going out so she's not stuck in the house.

Just referring to the PP who explained that her and her DH have “traditional gender roles”. So in their case there are certain expectations and limitations. If there weren’t they wouldn’t be “traditional”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women who sincerely believe that men are irrelevant and useless, and who are in an economic position to accurately say this, are a very small percentage of the overall population, maybe top 1-2%. 99% of women, ESPECIALLY of child bearing age, are not wealthy enough and will never be wealthy enough to comfortably care for children without outside help. The welfare state helps somewhat with this but at the end of the day nobody who makes the typical young single female salary of like 50k/yr can raise a family on that. Most women need men if they want kids, and even without kids most women are too poor to live a decent lifestyle without a second income. A few rich women bragging about their self made millions on here and dissing the male gender doesn’t change the cold hard truth that the average woman is broke AF.

Even then, men still predominately develop the technologies, fight the wars, do the dirty odd jobs, construction and other thankless jobs and work the law enforcement that make their lives so comfortable in the first place. These men are nameless and faceless to these corporate, rent seeking drones until they need them or something goes wrong though. Calling men irrelevant just shows how far up their own arses these women are. Congrats on making partner!!

Women perform the thankless jobs of childcare, nursing, cooking, teaching, cleaning and are the ones who give birth.

Why can’t we just admit that both genders perform essential tasks and more or less need one another to live a happy, healthy, prosperous life (outside of a few delusional elites who can insulate themselves from reality with $$$)

People perform essential tasks. They shouldn't be limited to certain tasks based on their sex organs.

But they aren't. There is no limitation. That doesn't mean certain things that are based on their sex organs are off limits. Being able to work out of the house doesn't mean you now can't work in the house anymore.

There is in “traditional gender roles”.

And out. According to you, the minute a mom thinks maybe she should make dinner, it's time to think about going out so she's not stuck in the house.

Just referring to the PP who explained that her and her DH have “traditional gender roles”. So in their case there are certain expectations and limitations. If there weren’t they wouldn’t be “traditional”.

I think you're conflating traditional with "expected" or "required". Who knows whether that's the case. It sounds like she likes being in that role -- whether because of social norms, biology, too many Disney movies, enjoying taking care of the family -- and it doesn't sound like she is confined at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women who sincerely believe that men are irrelevant and useless, and who are in an economic position to accurately say this, are a very small percentage of the overall population, maybe top 1-2%. 99% of women, ESPECIALLY of child bearing age, are not wealthy enough and will never be wealthy enough to comfortably care for children without outside help. The welfare state helps somewhat with this but at the end of the day nobody who makes the typical young single female salary of like 50k/yr can raise a family on that. Most women need men if they want kids, and even without kids most women are too poor to live a decent lifestyle without a second income. A few rich women bragging about their self made millions on here and dissing the male gender doesn’t change the cold hard truth that the average woman is broke AF.

Even then, men still predominately develop the technologies, fight the wars, do the dirty odd jobs, construction and other thankless jobs and work the law enforcement that make their lives so comfortable in the first place. These men are nameless and faceless to these corporate, rent seeking drones until they need them or something goes wrong though. Calling men irrelevant just shows how far up their own arses these women are. Congrats on making partner!!

Women perform the thankless jobs of childcare, nursing, cooking, teaching, cleaning and are the ones who give birth.

Why can’t we just admit that both genders perform essential tasks and more or less need one another to live a happy, healthy, prosperous life (outside of a few delusional elites who can insulate themselves from reality with $$$)

People perform essential tasks. They shouldn't be limited to certain tasks based on their sex organs.

But they aren't. There is no limitation. That doesn't mean certain things that are based on their sex organs are off limits. Being able to work out of the house doesn't mean you now can't work in the house anymore.

There is in “traditional gender roles”.

And out. According to you, the minute a mom thinks maybe she should make dinner, it's time to think about going out so she's not stuck in the house.

Just referring to the PP who explained that her and her DH have “traditional gender roles”. So in their case there are certain expectations and limitations. If there weren’t they wouldn’t be “traditional”.

I think you're conflating traditional with "expected" or "required". Who knows whether that's the case. It sounds like she likes being in that role -- whether because of social norms, biology, too many Disney movies, enjoying taking care of the family -- and it doesn't sound like she is confined at all.

If she is taking on non-traditional roles then she’s non-traditional. It’s confining by definition; there isn’t someone actually confining her. It’s how she has defined herself.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think there are any definitive truths. But there are loads of influences like hormones and social constructs that create predictable behavioral patterns.
L

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think there are any definitive truths. But there are loads of influences like hormones and social constructs that create predictable behavioral patterns.
L

Science is pretty definite.

[Anonymous]

Women think that doing things like going to college, traveling, having expensive hobbies or spending $$$$$ will make them more desirable to men; it won’t!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women think that doing things like going to college, traveling, having expensive hobbies or spending $$$$$ will make them more desirable to men; it won’t!

I guess on the flip side, I don't really want to be someone's sex toy or just with someone for the money and sex. I don't think anyone is into expensive hobbies unless you have a lot of money so not sure why that is a consideration. There used to be people that both respected gender roles and allowed freedom. You could be a male nurse or a woman part time worker. People didn't have this hardline approach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women think that doing things like going to college, traveling, having expensive hobbies or spending $$$$$ will make them more desirable to men; it won’t!

LOL. Right. Women base all of their decisions on how to be most desirable to men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think there are any definitive truths. But there are loads of influences like hormones and social constructs that create predictable behavioral patterns.
L

Science is pretty definite.

Definite about what exactly?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think there are any definitive truths. But there are loads of influences like hormones and social constructs that create predictable behavioral patterns.
L

Science is pretty definite.

Definite about what exactly?

Truths we can follow. Not everything is subjective at least without throwing out basically everything we know about ourselves and the earth.