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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.[/quote]

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior. [/quote]

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly. [/quote]

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?[/quote]

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.[/quote]

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable. [/quote]

Wrong. Marital rape was outlawed in the last state only in 1993. [/quote]

Which was more than 25 years ago. And those states were outliers by that time. None of which answers the question about whether feminism has been making the lives of women happier or less happy over the last 25 years despite my anecdotal (and possibly incorrect) [b]sense that - in terms of gender issues, women seem miserable. [/b][/quote]

What do you base this on? 
[/quote]

Honestly, the forums here and Reddit are a big part of my sense. When discussing anything to do with men and women, gender, relationships, marriage, sex, and pretty much any aspect of society as differentiated based on gender, the women offering commentary seem to range from sad or disappointed all the way to furious. Whatever progress has been made doesn't seem to be making anyone happy. [/quote]

Men on Reddit seem to desperately want to believe that women (especially single childfree women) are miserable. [/quote]

Are you happier than your mothers and grandmothers?

I'm a guy and think I'm way happier than my father and grandfather were. I think I have feminism to thank for at least some of that. I spend more time with my kids both because it's more expected and my wife's job/income gives me more time to do so. I'm more free to show emotion other than anger. I'm less focused on proving my masculinity.

But I'm not sure that my wife, sisters, or mother are any happier with their lot in life than my grandmother was. [/quote]

I'm much happier than my mother and grandmother and I have a healthier relationship with my spouse/kids. I never felt limited or defined by my gender.

I was able to finish HS, go to college, and even grad school in a historically male-dominated field. I wasn't limited to a few (low-paying) jobs even if they weren't a good fit. I wasn't stuck in a forced marriage and drank away my sorrows. My career wasn't limited when my kids were born. I have a spouse who equally shares family responsibilities. We share all of the joy and the pains. We are much closer than my parents were or my grandparents were; we are truly partners. Our jobs, interests, responsibilities are independent of gender roles - in some ways that we wouldn't even have done even 10-15 years ago. We are vulnerable with each other and also rationally share our emotions/dreams/frustrations. We are happily [u]not[/u] defined by traditional gender roles. 
[/quote]

+1. Women have things so much better than they used to. It’s not even close. We should thank our mothers & grandmothers (and the men who were on their sides) for bringing us out of the dark ages. There’s still work to be done, but they already did the heavy lifting for us. [/quote]

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