URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can’t have it both ways OP. That’s what you/your kids have to pay. They will never shake that doubt in other people’s eyes.

+1 cuts both ways.

Lots of Asian Americans can't understand why they got rejected over a lower stat URM other than due to the color of their skin. Oh yes, it's because their personality is lacking.

Almost all kids with very high stats worked hard. But the comment " “Your kid will have an advantage in college admissions” is very true, and the numbers reflect that.

"lots of asian americans"...how about lots of kids in general...this is typical racism. Personality may be lacking in any race, why single out asians?

because that's what the Harvard legal case brought out. High stats asian students lacked "personality" in higher numbers than other groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"DP here. URMs absolutely have lower test scores and GPAs for admittance to T25. You have to be really, really, really out of the loop not to know that. White kids and Asian kids would never get admitted with most of the URM scores and GPAs. It is not good or bad, it just is."

You're clueless. Their scores as a group might be lower that those of the wealthy white kids with professional parents who attended college. But no POC at a top school is getting in with a score that low. It would be pretty difficult to keep up with the ultra high achievers if you couldn't at least score in the top quintile, and it's really rare for URM students to flunk out of the most elite schools.

DP.

The chart doesn’t support that URM students are getting into Harvard (or Yale) with 1090 scores. The chart supports that the scores are at least at the 90% percentile, which is why the OP called BS on the original post. Big difference between 1090 and 1390. The OP didn’t claim that the scores for URM students are the SAME for white and Asian students.

that chart shows what the chart shows.. that the average black students admitted to Harvard have a much lower score than their Asian American counter parts.

You are being obtuse if you don't realize that Asian Americans have to far outperform every single group to be admitted to those schools.

Nope.

Asian Americans are admitted at 3X + their population. Already admitted at high rates. SFFA is crying "discrimination" but many applicants for limited spots. The SAT isn't everything.

So you think colleges should have quotas on how many people of one race they admit? That admissions should change to race based and population based admission, not college preparedness?

Try not to think of it this way - it only leads to frustration. Harvard and others like it are looking to produce the next Ron DeSantis or Terence Tao or Alice Walker or Bill Gates or Michelle Obama or whoever has influence on their world and country. It is almost impossible to predict this when looking at high school kids. College preparation is certainly one factor they are looking at when trying to decide who to admit but it’s a floor. Mostly they want to build this class of future leaders. Their success in picking at least a few superstars is what keeps their brand active and their coffers full. The stats you see are the product of that subjective and perhaps wrong assessment of some of the smartest 17/18 year olds in the world. It results in a class where more high achieving Asian Americans don’t make it than similarly qualified peers. Some of it may be (is) because of unconscious bias. But honestly it’s at least partly because you are using how you might choose those likely to be most successful (academic preparedness) with what Harvard is looking for (none of us really know).

DP. You are suggesting that Harvard and co. are run by people so smart that you want to trust them to be 'king makers' for the world. i don't. What if the outcome would be even better if they were to depend on academic preparedness as opposed to other random criteria? How will we know unless it's tried out?

Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella came out a system that almost exclusively rewards academic preparedness. They beat out thousands of others, many of who with undergrad and grad from Harvard, MIT and Stanford to get to where they are. Not too shabby. Why not extend that to all of society? What if they had been rejected from undergrad admissions because their college preferred to give away that seat who started a fake-charity or gold star pickleball player? Imagine the loss..

No I certainly don’t think Harvard should be in charge of being king makers. But until they are displaced by someone else, they will claim they are and people will flock to them. In some ways Stanford did that in this country in Tech. But they are now following the same model.

Therefore it's time for the society's stewards (i.e. government, courts, etc) to step in and fix these freeloaders from screwing up our society.

Not in a capitalist society.

Do you realize we subsidize all institutions of higher ed through tax breaks? They.don't.pay.any.taxes! Who do you think is footing that bill?

Did you say capitalism?

Churches too. It’s the way our society works.

If someone truly believed that some sort of entrance test was the best way to select students for a school, they should find a backer and build that school. If pockets of kids with high stats decided that was the place they wanted to go, we could run the experiment. Would that school displace Harvard?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"DP here. URMs absolutely have lower test scores and GPAs for admittance to T25. You have to be really, really, really out of the loop not to know that. White kids and Asian kids would never get admitted with most of the URM scores and GPAs. It is not good or bad, it just is."

You're clueless. Their scores as a group might be lower that those of the wealthy white kids with professional parents who attended college. But no POC at a top school is getting in with a score that low. It would be pretty difficult to keep up with the ultra high achievers if you couldn't at least score in the top quintile, and it's really rare for URM students to flunk out of the most elite schools.

DP.

The chart doesn’t support that URM students are getting into Harvard (or Yale) with 1090 scores. The chart supports that the scores are at least at the 90% percentile, which is why the OP called BS on the original post. Big difference between 1090 and 1390. The OP didn’t claim that the scores for URM students are the SAME for white and Asian students.

that chart shows what the chart shows.. that the average black students admitted to Harvard have a much lower score than their Asian American counter parts.

You are being obtuse if you don't realize that Asian Americans have to far outperform every single group to be admitted to those schools.

Nope.

Asian Americans are admitted at 3X + their population. Already admitted at high rates. SFFA is crying "discrimination" but many applicants for limited spots. The SAT isn't everything.

well, now you're moving the goal posts. This particular thread was about test scores.

Fact is that Asian Americans have to outperform every group in every way, not just SATs, to get in.

Also, who says college admissions should reflect the demographics of the country?

If they are admitted at 3x their population that just says they are super performers.

DP. No PP isn't. THeir point about SAT not meaning that much is valid, and this thread is not particularly about test scores.
No they don't. They need to not perform similarly and bring similar assets to the table. If several kids submit for CS with robotics club, violin and AIME and high SATs, how many of those should they take and still expect to have a diverse community? Yes, this sounds like a stereotype, but it is the case for many kids at our magnet. Many kids have paths dictated by parents, and those become very similar.
When you ask about reflecting demographics, your underlying supposition is that college's should be able to admit the students they think will bring the most to their campus. You argue against yourself here.
No it doesn't. It could easily suggest that they come from cultural groups that value certain aspects of education and invest with lots of enrichment.

+1

You get it.

Some posters are stuck with their position and won't budge or be open to hear sensible counterpoints.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When Affirmative Action is removed, I worry White families might continue to feel their kids will be at a disadvantage. Going by scores alone, most elite schools will be filled with Asian American students.

Curious why this is a worry. Because your assumption that these institutions should belong to white hands? That's the crux of all this. Someone is taking something from White kids. I would love 10 years of Asian only admits to see how that shakes out in society - for so many reasons!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Mostly they want to build this class of future leaders. Their success in picking at least a few superstars is what keeps their brand active and their coffers full. The stats you see are the product of that subjective and perhaps wrong assessment of some of the smartest 17/18 year olds in the world. It results in a class where more high achieving Asian Americans don’t make it than similarly qualified peers.

So Harvard thinks we don't want a bunch of grade-grubbing, test-prepping, exam-cheating, boring NPCs being our future leaders. Harvard is wrong about a lot of things but they might have something in this case.

As opposed to choosing ball chucking, bling chasing, weekday drinking, daddy-funded fools? Good choice indeed!

It is very clear that Harvard thinks our future leaders should be woke URMs.

Hard luck for athletes, legacies, and hard-working Asians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Mostly they want to build this class of future leaders. Their success in picking at least a few superstars is what keeps their brand active and their coffers full. The stats you see are the product of that subjective and perhaps wrong assessment of some of the smartest 17/18 year olds in the world. It results in a class where more high achieving Asian Americans don’t make it than similarly qualified peers.

So Harvard thinks we don't want a bunch of grade-grubbing, test-prepping, exam-cheating, boring NPCs being our future leaders. Harvard is wrong about a lot of things but they might have something in this case.

As opposed to choosing ball chucking, bling chasing, weekday drinking, daddy-funded fools? Good choice indeed!

It is very clear that Harvard thinks our future leaders should be woke URMs.

Hard luck for athletes, legacies, and hard-working Asians.

Cry me a River.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When Affirmative Action is removed, I worry White families might continue to feel their kids will be at a disadvantage. Going by scores alone, most elite schools will be filled with Asian American students.

Curious why this is a worry. Because your assumption that these institutions should belong to white hands? That's the crux of all this. Someone is taking something from White kids. I would love 10 years of Asian only admits to see how that shakes out in society - for so many reasons!

That was my point. Maybe I was not clear. People need to be careful what they wish for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When Affirmative Action is removed, I worry White families might continue to feel their kids will be at a disadvantage. Going by scores alone, most elite schools will be filled with Asian American students.

Curious why this is a worry. Because your assumption that these institutions should belong to white hands? That's the crux of all this. Someone is taking something from White kids. I would love 10 years of Asian only admits to see how that shakes out in society - for so many reasons!

That was my point. Maybe I was not clear. People need to be careful what they wish for.

Wishing for humans, especially young high schoolers, to not be judged or stereotyped by their race or ethnicity is not something people should be cautious of.

It is very telling when that is the central theme in our society though, and the races just switch around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can’t have it both ways OP. That’s what you/your kids have to pay. They will never shake that doubt in other people’s eyes.

+1. Also doesn’t help that, quite frankly, there is a not-insignificant number of URMs from super elite schools that I’ve encountered who simply are not quite as brilliant as one would hope. But the same goes for legacies and donor admits and athletes.

How is it that you have encountered a not insignificant number of URMs from super elite schools???? I'm one AND I spend my workdays at an even more elite institution. There are very. Very few of us here.

I work in NYC and there are plenty of URMs from the Harvards and Yales of the world. One of my colleagues at my last job was one, and she spent more time being incredibly entitled than actually doing her job. Also loved wearing her sweater with the big H on it and constantly drop unsubtle hints about where she went to school. Barf.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Welcome to the ugly side of living in a highly educated “liberal” community. The hypocrisy in these comments is truly astounding.

I am liberal and I do NOT support AA. Those things are not mutually exclusive by any means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"DP here. URMs absolutely have lower test scores and GPAs for admittance to T25. You have to be really, really, really out of the loop not to know that. White kids and Asian kids would never get admitted with most of the URM scores and GPAs. It is not good or bad, it just is."

You're clueless. Their scores as a group might be lower that those of the wealthy white kids with professional parents who attended college. But no POC at a top school is getting in with a score that low. It would be pretty difficult to keep up with the ultra high achievers if you couldn't at least score in the top quintile, and it's really rare for URM students to flunk out of the most elite schools.

DP.

The chart doesn’t support that URM students are getting into Harvard (or Yale) with 1090 scores. The chart supports that the scores are at least at the 90% percentile, which is why the OP called BS on the original post. Big difference between 1090 and 1390. The OP didn’t claim that the scores for URM students are the SAME for white and Asian students.

that chart shows what the chart shows.. that the average black students admitted to Harvard have a much lower score than their Asian American counter parts.

You are being obtuse if you don't realize that Asian Americans have to far outperform every single group to be admitted to those schools.

Nope.

Asian Americans are admitted at 3X + their population. Already admitted at high rates. SFFA is crying "discrimination" but many applicants for limited spots. The SAT isn't everything.

So you think colleges should have quotas on how many people of one race they admit? That admissions should change to race based and population based admission, not college preparedness?

No. PP cited SAT scores as if they should be the determinative factor in admissions. Standardized test scores is just one data point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"DP here. URMs absolutely have lower test scores and GPAs for admittance to T25. You have to be really, really, really out of the loop not to know that. White kids and Asian kids would never get admitted with most of the URM scores and GPAs. It is not good or bad, it just is."

You're clueless. Their scores as a group might be lower that those of the wealthy white kids with professional parents who attended college. But no POC at a top school is getting in with a score that low. It would be pretty difficult to keep up with the ultra high achievers if you couldn't at least score in the top quintile, and it's really rare for URM students to flunk out of the most elite schools.

DP.

The chart doesn’t support that URM students are getting into Harvard (or Yale) with 1090 scores. The chart supports that the scores are at least at the 90% percentile, which is why the OP called BS on the original post. Big difference between 1090 and 1390. The OP didn’t claim that the scores for URM students are the SAME for white and Asian students.

that chart shows what the chart shows.. that the average black students admitted to Harvard have a much lower score than their Asian American counter parts.

You are being obtuse if you don't realize that Asian Americans have to far outperform every single group to be admitted to those schools.

Nope.

Asian Americans are admitted at 3X + their population. Already admitted at high rates. SFFA is crying "discrimination" but many applicants for limited spots. The SAT isn't everything.

So you think colleges should have quotas on how many people of one race they admit? That admissions should change to race based and population based admission, not college preparedness?

No. PP cited SAT scores as if they should be the determinative factor in admissions. Standardized test scores is just one data point.

And again, you equate Asians solely with test scores as if no other part of their profile matters. Yet others should be based on other factors.

[Anonymous]

To the OP: Yes, I have the same experience.

I'm a black man who attended a top 25 school undergrad and grad. There were people who doubted my credibility and made it clear directly or subtly. I've had the same experience in my career - especially when I was younger.

Don't let it get to you. I remind myself that my parents attended segregated schools and dealt with much worse. I tell my children, especially my son, that they won’t get the benefit of the doubt and that they have to work harder and excel to be taken seriously. It's wrong. But, that's our country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Welcome to the ugly side of living in a highly educated “liberal” community. The hypocrisy in these comments is truly astounding.

I am liberal and I do NOT support AA. Those things are not mutually exclusive by any means.

Correct.

Liberals and Bernie Bros are totally different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the OP: Yes, I have the same experience.

I'm a black man who attended a top 25 school undergrad and grad. There were people who doubted my credibility and made it clear directly or subtly. I've had the same experience in my career - especially when I was younger.

Don't let it get to you. I remind myself that my parents attended segregated schools and dealt with much worse. I tell my children, especially my son, that they won’t get the benefit of the doubt and that they have to work harder and excel to be taken seriously. It's wrong. But, that's our country.

Yes, and keep cashing those checks. Who cares what people think.