A Generation of American Men Give Up on College: ‘I Just Feel Lost’

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OMG, girls are good at listening to directions, organizing themselves in a classroom environment better than men, and sticking to rigid, ordered structure.

Now throw the kids out in the woods with a little bit of gear and no food rations. See how well men vs. women survive. Or throw a bunch of materials on the ground and tell them to build a bridge with no directions and very few tools available. Study after study has shown that men are spatial and visual learners. That's exactly OPPOSITE of how education is taught via rote, didactic based classroom learning.

The vast majority of college degrees are worthless. They teach almost zero about personal finance, how to fix your transmission so you save $2000 when it breaks down, or how to even unclog a drain in your home so that you don't have to spend $1000 on a visit from the plumber. Quiz all of these impressive college students who aren't specifically in finance or accounting to see if they have the faintest idea of what amortization is and how it affects their life. I can guarantee you amortization with have 100000000000x more impact on their entire lives than the writings of Sappho, Jane Austen, or Plato. Just admit it - a huge portion of college grads are forking over $20, 30, 40, even 70k per year just to be in what is tantamount to a stupid book club discussion that you can do for free at your local library. Universities teach almost nothing of actual value that helps people survive except maybe engineering and a few STEM degrees. Congrats for indebting yourselves to a greater degree than certain other groups of people just so you can stick a paper on your wall that says you read a whole bunch of library books that could have been checked out for free. Pfffff, advanced knowledge in many fields is now free these days online via YouTube and even universities themselves. College is the biggest waste of time. Unless of course you're OK with just settling for mediocre and being indebted out the wazoo for the privilege. It's so funny how many business leaders lambast worthless MBAs these days because schools teach almost zero of actual value. You constantly hear about how business leaders have to retrain MBAs from scratch, because what they just paid $200k for is essentially worthless.

Wow. So many incorrect assumptions and misogyny it’s hard to know we’re to start.

But O do agree that the point of a 4 year degree isn’t to rebuild a transmission. Which is fine. In 20 years, that will be done by robots.

Meh, most Millennials and GenZ are adapt at maintaining their bikes and prefer that to driving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lack of a college degree really held back Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, Ted Turner, Michael Dell, and David Geffen from any real success. Poor guys.

A lot of these guys figured out what top-level NBA players know: superstars are wasting their time if they stick around college for four years.

This was my takeaway. Most people (including the educators interviewed in the article) are missing the point. The engineering and business schools still have plenty of men. Men are also skipping that step altogether and going straight into business. It’s the LACs that are becoming more and more female, and that’s been going on a while. Do you really think having liberal arts colleges become the province of women is going to make either women or liberal arts colleges more powerful? To the contrary, these schools, and those professions, will become “pink ghettos,” to the extent they aren’t already. How many times has it been posted on here that it is easier for men to get into William & Mary than UVA? There’s also been much discussion about how W&M seems to be losing ground to UVA, financially and otherwise. The two are not unrelated.

These schools have made it clear that they’re not interested in educating men (especially white men), and the men took the hint. Especially considering the rising cost of a college education, they’ve also realized that the value ROI isn’t there, anymore. The article seemed more about the schools themselves realizing that this is a problem, more so than the men whining. As these colleges become more and more expensive, they can’t afford for 1/2 of the population, especially the 1/2 that has always been more powerful in the past, to decide that their credential is unnecessary.

So, women are going to get what they want; these prestigious colleges will become “safe spaces” that prefer women. But the irony is, that in the process, the value of the degree will have been devalued.

as ñ
I don’t think this is an implausible theory. Lower income white boys may be rationally entering the workplace instead of college. Probably a big urban-rural difference that explains higher enrollment of male POC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a little surprised that no one has pointed out yet that the WSJ in the past few years has become a Trump Republican mouthpiece. I'm very skeptical of ANYTHING that they print.

My son (who has ADHD and loves video games) was admitted to 100% of the colleges he applied to and is doing great. Same with all his friends. Same with my nephew. Not quite sure where this sense of grievance is coming from, but I'm really skeptical of anything that WSJ tells me about it.

There is a paywall, so I couldn't read the article, but I gotta say this whole "the system has failed me" stuff sounds a whole lot like the misandry nonsense that I've been hearing forever wherein anti-social loser men claim to be "lost" because they aren't allowed to abuse women and make racist jokes anymore. As a middle aged white guy who recently went through a job search, I don't find the world hard for men. It's certainly far easier for me than for women in my life or the people of color I know.

Interesting, because my young for his grade son, who also was admitted to every college he applied to and loves video games, will be the first to tell you that he doesn't speak up in class - ever - because he is afraid he will say something wrong and realizes that, regardless, his perspective isn't welcome. He doesn't feel sorry for himself. He accepts this as truth.

My younger son, who also gets good grades now that he is older, feels the same. I can assure you that neither boy is racist, woman hating, or even self-pitying. They are actually pretty insightful.

+1
Yep. Same experience here. Not self-pity, but definitely eyes wide open.

I asked my white son about this. This has not been his experience. My kid is pretty active in race and gender relations stuff at school and has actually be asked to participate more -- attend more meetings, meet with faculty, etc.

I am a college professor and I don't see it either. I am a woman, POC, and teach history to all majors but more STEM than humanities. My male students, both white and POC, feel comfortable expressing themselves in class, which often involves discussions of gender, class, race, politics, etc. in the US. However, I have noticed that female students are, in general, more organized than male students. In other words, they are better students, not smarter, but better able to meet academic expectations such as studying, handing in assignments on time, managing course loads, etc.

So, the white men in your classes feel comfortable expressing views that you may disagree with? Or are they good at telling you what you want to hear?

My DS doesn’t say that he doesn’t talk in class, but it was around middle school when I asked him what he was going to say about an assignment that could be controversial, and he very breezily said, “Don’t worry Mom, I know what the teacher wants to hear.”

Do you think your DS can’t discuss cell biology etc in class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lack of a college degree really held back Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, Ted Turner, Michael Dell, and David Geffen from any real success. Poor guys.

A lot of these guys figured out what top-level NBA players know: superstars are wasting their time if they stick around college for four years.

This was my takeaway. Most people (including the educators interviewed in the article) are missing the point. The engineering and business schools still have plenty of men. Men are also skipping that step altogether and going straight into business. It’s the LACs that are becoming more and more female, and that’s been going on a while. Do you really think having liberal arts colleges become the province of women is going to make either women or liberal arts colleges more powerful? To the contrary, these schools, and those professions, will become “pink ghettos,” to the extent they aren’t already. How many times has it been posted on here that it is easier for men to get into William & Mary than UVA? There’s also been much discussion about how W&M seems to be losing ground to UVA, financially and otherwise. The two are not unrelated.

These schools have made it clear that they’re not interested in educating men (especially white men), and the men took the hint. Especially considering the rising cost of a college education, they’ve also realized that the value ROI isn’t there, anymore. The article seemed more about the schools themselves realizing that this is a problem, more so than the men whining. As these colleges become more and more expensive, they can’t afford for 1/2 of the population, especially the 1/2 that has always been more powerful in the past, to decide that their credential is unnecessary.

So, women are going to get what they want; these prestigious colleges will become “safe spaces” that prefer women. But the irony is, that in the process, the value of the degree will have been devalued.

as ñ
I don’t think this is an implausible theory. Lower income white boys may be rationally entering the workplace instead of college. Probably a big urban-rural difference that explains higher enrollment of male POC.

Many of those 'lower income white boys' can start earning $20-25+/hr as an apprentice right out of college. Apprentice electricians already make $50k+ per year, which is more than many BS degrees from college earn out of college. During that time you can immediately start contributing to your retirement accounts. By the time a college grad has finished college, they're already 4 years behind in savings compared to the 'lower income white boy' who has been saving for 4+ years. After 4+ years, the apprentice is now well on their way to become a master in their trade, and can be earning $70k and easily over $100k+ with OT. Meanwhile, Suzy and her 'prestigious' college degree haven't even begun to save a dime yet for either their retirement or a home because they are busy paying $400 per month now in student loan debt while they're making a crappy $15-20/hr salary in an entry level job that basically doesn't even require a college degree. Have fun with 10+ years of debt for that worthless degree.

Imagine wasting time in college all through 2010-2020. You missed out on the historic bull run of the market during which you could have easily tripled your money. You spent 4 years in college earning $0 (actually negative dollars), then are spending the other half of the decade pissing your money away down the toilet on interest on your student loan debt. Meanwhile, the kid who went to trade school to become an electrician or an elevator repair man earning $70k+ has been saving money for 10 years, has tripled their money on the market, and has zero debt. Oh yeah, and tons of job security because you can't offshore many trade jobs that require a license.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lack of a college degree really held back Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, Ted Turner, Michael Dell, and David Geffen from any real success. Poor guys.

A lot of these guys figured out what top-level NBA players know: superstars are wasting their time if they stick around college for four years.

This was my takeaway. Most people (including the educators interviewed in the article) are missing the point. The engineering and business schools still have plenty of men. Men are also skipping that step altogether and going straight into business. It’s the LACs that are becoming more and more female, and that’s been going on a while. Do you really think having liberal arts colleges become the province of women is going to make either women or liberal arts colleges more powerful? To the contrary, these schools, and those professions, will become “pink ghettos,” to the extent they aren’t already. How many times has it been posted on here that it is easier for men to get into William & Mary than UVA? There’s also been much discussion about how W&M seems to be losing ground to UVA, financially and otherwise. The two are not unrelated.

These schools have made it clear that they’re not interested in educating men (especially white men), and the men took the hint. Especially considering the rising cost of a college education, they’ve also realized that the value ROI isn’t there, anymore. The article seemed more about the schools themselves realizing that this is a problem, more so than the men whining. As these colleges become more and more expensive, they can’t afford for 1/2 of the population, especially the 1/2 that has always been more powerful in the past, to decide that their credential is unnecessary.

So, women are going to get what they want; these prestigious colleges will become “safe spaces” that prefer women. But the irony is, that in the process, the value of the degree will have been devalued.

as ñ
I don’t think this is an implausible theory. Lower income white boys may be rationally entering the workplace instead of college. Probably a big urban-rural difference that explains higher enrollment of male POC.

Many of those 'lower income white boys' can start earning $20-25+/hr as an apprentice right out of college. Apprentice electricians already make $50k+ per year, which is more than many BS degrees from college earn out of college. During that time you can immediately start contributing to your retirement accounts. By the time a college grad has finished college, they're already 4 years behind in savings compared to the 'lower income white boy' who has been saving for 4+ years. After 4+ years, the apprentice is now well on their way to become a master in their trade, and can be earning $70k and easily over $100k+ with OT. Meanwhile, Suzy and her 'prestigious' college degree haven't even begun to save a dime yet for either their retirement or a home because they are busy paying $400 per month now in student loan debt while they're making a crappy $15-20/hr salary in an entry level job that basically doesn't even require a college degree. Have fun with 10+ years of debt for that worthless degree.

Imagine wasting time in college all through 2010-2020. You missed out on the historic bull run of the market during which you could have easily tripled your money. You spent 4 years in college earning $0 (actually negative dollars), then are spending the other half of the decade pissing your money away down the toilet on interest on your student loan debt. Meanwhile, the kid who went to trade school to become an electrician or an elevator repair man earning $70k+ has been saving money for 10 years, has tripled their money on the market, and has zero debt. Oh yeah, and tons of job security because you can't offshore many trade jobs that require a license.

^meant earning $20-25/hr right out of high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a little surprised that no one has pointed out yet that the WSJ in the past few years has become a Trump Republican mouthpiece. I'm very skeptical of ANYTHING that they print.

My son (who has ADHD and loves video games) was admitted to 100% of the colleges he applied to and is doing great. Same with all his friends. Same with my nephew. Not quite sure where this sense of grievance is coming from, but I'm really skeptical of anything that WSJ tells me about it.

There is a paywall, so I couldn't read the article, but I gotta say this whole "the system has failed me" stuff sounds a whole lot like the misandry nonsense that I've been hearing forever wherein anti-social loser men claim to be "lost" because they aren't allowed to abuse women and make racist jokes anymore. As a middle aged white guy who recently went through a job search, I don't find the world hard for men. It's certainly far easier for me than for women in my life or the people of color I know.

Interesting, because my young for his grade son, who also was admitted to every college he applied to and loves video games, will be the first to tell you that he doesn't speak up in class - ever - because he is afraid he will say something wrong and realizes that, regardless, his perspective isn't welcome. He doesn't feel sorry for himself. He accepts this as truth.

My younger son, who also gets good grades now that he is older, feels the same. I can assure you that neither boy is racist, woman hating, or even self-pitying. They are actually pretty insightful.

+1
Yep. Same experience here. Not self-pity, but definitely eyes wide open.

I asked my white son about this. This has not been his experience. My kid is pretty active in race and gender relations stuff at school and has actually be asked to participate more -- attend more meetings, meet with faculty, etc.

I am a college professor and I don't see it either. I am a woman, POC, and teach history to all majors but more STEM than humanities. My male students, both white and POC, feel comfortable expressing themselves in class, which often involves discussions of gender, class, race, politics, etc. in the US. However, I have noticed that female students are, in general, more organized than male students. In other words, they are better students, not smarter, but better able to meet academic expectations such as studying, handing in assignments on time, managing course loads, etc.

So, the white men in your classes feel comfortable expressing views that you may disagree with? Or are they good at telling you what you want to hear?

My DS doesn’t say that he doesn’t talk in class, but it was around middle school when I asked him what he was going to say about an assignment that could be controversial, and he very breezily said, “Don’t worry Mom, I know what the teacher wants to hear.”

DD has heard plenty of white boys express controversial opinions and ask insensitive questions. She found the idea that white boys aren’t comfortable expressing themselves laughable.

+1. Yeah. I’m not sure what PP is talking about. Or why s/he so adamant that they raised such a doormat that they are unwilling or unable to say what they really think. Unless what they really think is MAGA in the DMV, in which case the hating on smart women makes complete sense.

All I can say is that you all must not have boys that attend private schools in the DMV (if you think anything other than the most liberal possible opinion is acceptable). I also have a feeling that that anything other than the most liberal position possible would be your definition of “MAGA,” which proves the point.

Why in the world are you paying for a private where your kid is not allowed to expressed dissenting opinions or doesn’t feel comfortable expressing himself? That’s 100% a you problem.

My DS goes to a good DMV public and has no issues expressing himself in class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lack of a college degree really held back Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, Ted Turner, Michael Dell, and David Geffen from any real success. Poor guys.

A lot of these guys figured out what top-level NBA players know: superstars are wasting their time if they stick around college for four years.

This was my takeaway. Most people (including the educators interviewed in the article) are missing the point. The engineering and business schools still have plenty of men. Men are also skipping that step altogether and going straight into business. It’s the LACs that are becoming more and more female, and that’s been going on a while. Do you really think having liberal arts colleges become the province of women is going to make either women or liberal arts colleges more powerful? To the contrary, these schools, and those professions, will become “pink ghettos,” to the extent they aren’t already. How many times has it been posted on here that it is easier for men to get into William & Mary than UVA? There’s also been much discussion about how W&M seems to be losing ground to UVA, financially and otherwise. The two are not unrelated.

These schools have made it clear that they’re not interested in educating men (especially white men), and the men took the hint. Especially considering the rising cost of a college education, they’ve also realized that the value ROI isn’t there, anymore. The article seemed more about the schools themselves realizing that this is a problem, more so than the men whining. As these colleges become more and more expensive, they can’t afford for 1/2 of the population, especially the 1/2 that has always been more powerful in the past, to decide that their credential is unnecessary.

So, women are going to get what they want; these prestigious colleges will become “safe spaces” that prefer women. But the irony is, that in the process, the value of the degree will have been devalued.

as ñ
I don’t think this is an implausible theory. Lower income white boys may be rationally entering the workplace instead of college. Probably a big urban-rural difference that explains higher enrollment of male POC.

Many of those 'lower income white boys' can start earning $20-25+/hr as an apprentice right out of college. Apprentice electricians already make $50k+ per year, which is more than many BS degrees from college earn out of college. During that time you can immediately start contributing to your retirement accounts. By the time a college grad has finished college, they're already 4 years behind in savings compared to the 'lower income white boy' who has been saving for 4+ years. After 4+ years, the apprentice is now well on their way to become a master in their trade, and can be earning $70k and easily over $100k+ with OT. Meanwhile, Suzy and her 'prestigious' college degree haven't even begun to save a dime yet for either their retirement or a home because they are busy paying $400 per month now in student loan debt while they're making a crappy $15-20/hr salary in an entry level job that basically doesn't even require a college degree. Have fun with 10+ years of debt for that worthless degree.

Imagine wasting time in college all through 2010-2020. You missed out on the historic bull run of the market during which you could have easily tripled your money. You spent 4 years in college earning $0 (actually negative dollars), then are spending the other half of the decade pissing your money away down the toilet on interest on your student loan debt. Meanwhile, the kid who went to trade school to become an electrician or an elevator repair man earning $70k+ has been saving money for 10 years, has tripled their money on the market, and has zero debt. Oh yeah, and tons of job security because you can't offshore many trade jobs that require a license.

But this isn't what many are doing. They are are taking low-end service jobs, being regularly unemployed and wandering aimlessly and taking on consumer debt rather than student loan debt.

[Anonymous]

My son is in a public and also has nooooo problem expressing himself in class. (A year or virtual learning confirmed that.). And almost half of my kid’s teachers have been men, especially in the upper grades.
Also, if you think the girls aren’t also adjusting their classroom answers to match the teacher’s expectations….you are 100% wrong. Teen girls are probably (as a generalization) more attuned than anyone to societal expectations—it’s like their super power, used for both good and evil.

What we really need is the study of 21 year old men to see what they are doing. That’s the real question. Are they going to college later, joining trades, joining military, or living in their parents basement smoking weed and complaining about feminists? The military is over &0% male (and only about 22% have a bachelors degree) so that’s clearly one piece of the answer. Men are also 90% of the prison population so that’s probably another part of the answer.

[Anonymous]

White men?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lack of a college degree really held back Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, Ted Turner, Michael Dell, and David Geffen from any real success. Poor guys.

A lot of these guys figured out what top-level NBA players know: superstars are wasting their time if they stick around college for four years.

This was my takeaway. Most people (including the educators interviewed in the article) are missing the point. The engineering and business schools still have plenty of men. Men are also skipping that step altogether and going straight into business. It’s the LACs that are becoming more and more female, and that’s been going on a while. Do you really think having liberal arts colleges become the province of women is going to make either women or liberal arts colleges more powerful? To the contrary, these schools, and those professions, will become “pink ghettos,” to the extent they aren’t already. How many times has it been posted on here that it is easier for men to get into William & Mary than UVA? There’s also been much discussion about how W&M seems to be losing ground to UVA, financially and otherwise. The two are not unrelated.

These schools have made it clear that they’re not interested in educating men (especially white men), and the men took the hint. Especially considering the rising cost of a college education, they’ve also realized that the value ROI isn’t there, anymore. The article seemed more about the schools themselves realizing that this is a problem, more so than the men whining. As these colleges become more and more expensive, they can’t afford for 1/2 of the population, especially the 1/2 that has always been more powerful in the past, to decide that their credential is unnecessary.

So, women are going to get what they want; these prestigious colleges will become “safe spaces” that prefer women. But the irony is, that in the process, the value of the degree will have been devalued.

as ñ
I don’t think this is an implausible theory. Lower income white boys may be rationally entering the workplace instead of college. Probably a big urban-rural difference that explains higher enrollment of male POC.

Many of those 'lower income white boys' can start earning $20-25+/hr as an apprentice right out of college. Apprentice electricians already make $50k+ per year, which is more than many BS degrees from college earn out of college. During that time you can immediately start contributing to your retirement accounts. By the time a college grad has finished college, they're already 4 years behind in savings compared to the 'lower income white boy' who has been saving for 4+ years. After 4+ years, the apprentice is now well on their way to become a master in their trade, and can be earning $70k and easily over $100k+ with OT. Meanwhile, Suzy and her 'prestigious' college degree haven't even begun to save a dime yet for either their retirement or a home because they are busy paying $400 per month now in student loan debt while they're making a crappy $15-20/hr salary in an entry level job that basically doesn't even require a college degree. Have fun with 10+ years of debt for that worthless degree.

Imagine wasting time in college all through 2010-2020. You missed out on the historic bull run of the market during which you could have easily tripled your money. You spent 4 years in college earning $0 (actually negative dollars), then are spending the other half of the decade pissing your money away down the toilet on interest on your student loan debt. Meanwhile, the kid who went to trade school to become an electrician or an elevator repair man earning $70k+ has been saving money for 10 years, has tripled their money on the market, and has zero debt. Oh yeah, and tons of job security because you can't offshore many trade jobs that require a license.

But this isn't what many are doing. They are are taking low-end service jobs, being regularly unemployed and wandering aimlessly and taking on consumer debt rather than student loan debt.

Do you have support for that assertion? Because when I look at service jobs, I see predominantly females and some Latino men. It’s pretty rare to see a white guy in unskilled service jobs….maybe a few at places like pet stores, book stores, Home Depot (but those are old guys who I think are mostly former tradesman on disability retirement).

[Anonymous]

Strange that someone with such antipathy towards the concept of college is on a mommy website section about colleges telling everyone what a waste of time and money it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The lack of a college degree really held back Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, Ted Turner, Michael Dell, and David Geffen from any real success. Poor guys.

A lot of these guys figured out what top-level NBA players know: superstars are wasting their time if they stick around college for four years.

Are you trolling or ignorant as hell? These outliers are baby boomers and/or grew up rich and/or attended the most elite k-college schools in the U.S. Zuckerberg graduated from Exeter, then dropped out of Harvard. Turner inherited his millionaire dad's ad business and dropped (or was kicked) out of Brown. Gates's dad was a highly connected rich lawyer and afford junior access to early computers, then Lakeside Prep school, then Harvard. Dell's mom was a doctor, his dad a stockbroker.

In what way are any of their paths applicable to a random 17 or 18 y/o middle class American dipsh*t in 2021 who attended a worthless k-12 public school and has received fake As and Bs for the last decade? The average Eddie teen isn't mulling Brown and Harvard, they're mulling community college for $5,000 in tuition a year (plus housing) and the regional public degree mill for $15,000 in tuition year (plus housing), where they need YEARS of remedial coursework to even be at university level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Many of those 'lower income white boys' can start earning $20-25+/hr as an apprentice right out of college. Apprentice electricians already make $50k+ per year, which is more than many BS degrees from college earn out of college. During that time you can immediately start contributing to your retirement accounts. By the time a college grad has finished college, they're already 4 years behind in savings compared to the 'lower income white boy' who has been saving for 4+ years. After 4+ years, the apprentice is now well on their way to become a master in their trade, and can be earning $70k and easily over $100k+ with OT. Meanwhile, Suzy and her 'prestigious' college degree haven't even begun to save a dime yet for either their retirement or a home because they are busy paying $400 per month now in student loan debt while they're making a crappy $15-20/hr salary in an entry level job that basically doesn't even require a college degree. Have fun with 10+ years of debt for that worthless degree.

Imagine wasting time in college all through 2010-2020. You missed out on the historic bull run of the market during which you could have easily tripled your money. You spent 4 years in college earning $0 (actually negative dollars), then are spending the other half of the decade pissing your money away down the toilet on interest on your student loan debt. Meanwhile, the kid who went to trade school to become an electrician or an elevator repair man earning $70k+ has been saving money for 10 years, has tripled their money on the market, and has zero debt. Oh yeah, and tons of job security because you can't offshore many trade jobs that require a license.

But this isn't what many are doing. They are are taking low-end service jobs, being regularly unemployed and wandering aimlessly and taking on consumer debt rather than student loan debt.

+1. PP is an idiot. Their hypothetical rich tradesman is spoken like a 'bootstrap' GOP dipsh*t who with no direct insight. Most men in the trades hate life, their bodies are broken, they are drunks who abuse alcohol and narcotics, their families are trashy and dysfunction. They destroy their bodies slaving away on miserable job sites, inevitably leading to a workplace injury or stroke, while the college educated get the contracts and sit on their *sses in air conditioned offices counting the money. And the dumb "Suzy" characters have make work freeloading office jobs doing basically nothing all day but gossiping and responding to emails for $60,000 $80,000 $100,000 plus a year. The dumbest office "Suzy" I've ever met was making $350,000 a year. Dumb as a brick, a few credentials from degree mills (one of them an online college!) and she's driving a new Tesla with two homes. Let me know how many muh tradesman are doing nothing all day for $350,000 a year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lack of a college degree really held back Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, Ted Turner, Michael Dell, and David Geffen from any real success. Poor guys.

A lot of these guys figured out what top-level NBA players know: superstars are wasting their time if they stick around college for four years.

This was my takeaway. Most people (including the educators interviewed in the article) are missing the point. The engineering and business schools still have plenty of men. Men are also skipping that step altogether and going straight into business. It’s the LACs that are becoming more and more female, and that’s been going on a while. Do you really think having liberal arts colleges become the province of women is going to make either women or liberal arts colleges more powerful? To the contrary, these schools, and those professions, will become “pink ghettos,” to the extent they aren’t already. How many times has it been posted on here that it is easier for men to get into William & Mary than UVA? There’s also been much discussion about how W&M seems to be losing ground to UVA, financially and otherwise. The two are not unrelated.

These schools have made it clear that they’re not interested in educating men (especially white men), and the men took the hint. Especially considering the rising cost of a college education, they’ve also realized that the value ROI isn’t there, anymore. The article seemed more about the schools themselves realizing that this is a problem, more so than the men whining. As these colleges become more and more expensive, they can’t afford for 1/2 of the population, especially the 1/2 that has always been more powerful in the past, to decide that their credential is unnecessary.

So, women are going to get what they want; these prestigious colleges will become “safe spaces” that prefer women. But the irony is, that in the process, the value of the degree will have been devalued.

as ñ
I don’t think this is an implausible theory. Lower income white boys may be rationally entering the workplace instead of college. Probably a big urban-rural difference that explains higher enrollment of male POC.

Many of those 'lower income white boys' can start earning $20-25+/hr as an apprentice right out of college. Apprentice electricians already make $50k+ per year, which is more than many BS degrees from college earn out of college. During that time you can immediately start contributing to your retirement accounts. By the time a college grad has finished college, they're already 4 years behind in savings compared to the 'lower income white boy' who has been saving for 4+ years. After 4+ years, the apprentice is now well on their way to become a master in their trade, and can be earning $70k and easily over $100k+ with OT. Meanwhile, Suzy and her 'prestigious' college degree haven't even begun to save a dime yet for either their retirement or a home because they are busy paying $400 per month now in student loan debt while they're making a crappy $15-20/hr salary in an entry level job that basically doesn't even require a college degree. Have fun with 10+ years of debt for that worthless degree.

Imagine wasting time in college all through 2010-2020. You missed out on the historic bull run of the market during which you could have easily tripled your money. You spent 4 years in college earning $0 (actually negative dollars), then are spending the other half of the decade pissing your money away down the toilet on interest on your student loan debt. Meanwhile, the kid who went to trade school to become an electrician or an elevator repair man earning $70k+ has been saving money for 10 years, has tripled their money on the market, and has zero debt. Oh yeah, and tons of job security because you can't offshore many trade jobs that require a license.

But this isn't what many are doing. They are are taking low-end service jobs, being regularly unemployed and wandering aimlessly and taking on consumer debt rather than student loan debt.

Do you have support for that assertion? Because when I look at service jobs, I see predominantly females and some Latino men. It’s pretty rare to see a white guy in unskilled service jobs….maybe a few at places like pet stores, book stores, Home Depot (but those are old guys who I think are mostly former tradesman on disability retirement).

So they are sitting in their parents' basement playing video games. The point is they aren't in the trades, they aren't in college. They are going nowhere. And that's not good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lack of a college degree really held back Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, Ted Turner, Michael Dell, and David Geffen from any real success. Poor guys.

A lot of these guys figured out what top-level NBA players know: superstars are wasting their time if they stick around college for four years.

This was my takeaway. Most people (including the educators interviewed in the article) are missing the point. The engineering and business schools still have plenty of men. Men are also skipping that step altogether and going straight into business. It’s the LACs that are becoming more and more female, and that’s been going on a while. Do you really think having liberal arts colleges become the province of women is going to make either women or liberal arts colleges more powerful? To the contrary, these schools, and those professions, will become “pink ghettos,” to the extent they aren’t already. How many times has it been posted on here that it is easier for men to get into William & Mary than UVA? There’s also been much discussion about how W&M seems to be losing ground to UVA, financially and otherwise. The two are not unrelated.

These schools have made it clear that they’re not interested in educating men (especially white men), and the men took the hint. Especially considering the rising cost of a college education, they’ve also realized that the value ROI isn’t there, anymore. The article seemed more about the schools themselves realizing that this is a problem, more so than the men whining. As these colleges become more and more expensive, they can’t afford for 1/2 of the population, especially the 1/2 that has always been more powerful in the past, to decide that their credential is unnecessary.

So, women are going to get what they want; these prestigious colleges will become “safe spaces” that prefer women. But the irony is, that in the process, the value of the degree will have been devalued.

as ñ
I don’t think this is an implausible theory. Lower income white boys may be rationally entering the workplace instead of college. Probably a big urban-rural difference that explains higher enrollment of male POC.

Many of those 'lower income white boys' can start earning $20-25+/hr as an apprentice right out of college. Apprentice electricians already make $50k+ per year, which is more than many BS degrees from college earn out of college. During that time you can immediately start contributing to your retirement accounts. By the time a college grad has finished college, they're already 4 years behind in savings compared to the 'lower income white boy' who has been saving for 4+ years. After 4+ years, the apprentice is now well on their way to become a master in their trade, and can be earning $70k and easily over $100k+ with OT. Meanwhile, Suzy and her 'prestigious' college degree haven't even begun to save a dime yet for either their retirement or a home because they are busy paying $400 per month now in student loan debt while they're making a crappy $15-20/hr salary in an entry level job that basically doesn't even require a college degree. Have fun with 10+ years of debt for that worthless degree.

Imagine wasting time in college all through 2010-2020. You missed out on the historic bull run of the market during which you could have easily tripled your money. You spent 4 years in college earning $0 (actually negative dollars), then are spending the other half of the decade pissing your money away down the toilet on interest on your student loan debt. Meanwhile, the kid who went to trade school to become an electrician or an elevator repair man earning $70k+ has been saving money for 10 years, has tripled their money on the market, and has zero debt. Oh yeah, and tons of job security because you can't offshore many trade jobs that require a license.

But this isn't what many are doing. They are are taking low-end service jobs, being regularly unemployed and wandering aimlessly and taking on consumer debt rather than student loan debt.

Do you have support for that assertion? Because when I look at service jobs, I see predominantly females and some Latino men. It’s pretty rare to see a white guy in unskilled service jobs….maybe a few at places like pet stores, book stores, Home Depot (but those are old guys who I think are mostly former tradesman on disability retirement).

From the article data and examples, the young men were working service jobs like package delivery for Fedex or working in an Amazon warehouse, not skilled trade jobs.