A Generation of American Men Give Up on College: ‘I Just Feel Lost’

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ok, I have 3 daughters and the reason boys fail at American schools has been very clear to me - because curricula are dumbed down and academic competition is suppressed. Classes are taught by overwhelmingly female teachers who know very little and prioritize discipline and busywork.

We are immigrants but moved back to our old country mainly because schools are much better. And boy, do boys thrive here. They are so much better academically (about equal with girls) and more confident. Society needs both men and women, and men and women need each other.

Teachers have been overwhelmingly female in the US for more than a century.

I do agree the curriculum has been dumbed down, but I don't see that as a reason boys in particular are generally less successful or less prepared.

because they can't handle boredom as well as girls can.

pretty sure 100 years ago, school was boring, too, yet more boys went to college than girls. Oh, that's right, back then it wasn't really accepted for girls to be educated, whereas today, it is.

no, the point is not to return to spanking, the point is that boredom was no an issue historically. PP implied that, because you needed to memorize poems, the school of boring. but memorizing is not boring. it's actually a difficult task, but one you can get better in, if you keep doing it.
This is what is so weird about "the feminizing of school hurts boys" argument. School used to be much more rigid, strict, focused on rote memorization, etc. I would think by modern standards, children of both genders would find it far more boring. And teaching in primary school has long been female - I think it went from about 2/3 in the 80's to about 70-75% in the last decade (hardly a huge leap). The difference is not that school is more strict/boring/female now but that barriers (some explicit) have come down for girls, and with more competition comes predictable results.

rote memorization is not boring, it's challenging. just like being spanked in school is not boring. what is boring right now is the easiness and repetitiveness of it all. when you are scared, you are not bored.

So let's traumatize male children so they do better in school? WTF

This is how you end up with psychopaths in government and companies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can only speak to my Big 10 alma mater but the college of engineering graduation we attended appeared to be like literally 90% Indian and Asian kids, both foreign and domestic born. In a state that's over 90% white and black.

But that doesn’t show all of the Asian kids who are struggling either because of burnout, mental illness, or learning disabilities. The myth of the model minority really hurts Asian kids —particularly boys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ok, I have 3 daughters and the reason boys fail at American schools has been very clear to me - because curricula are dumbed down and academic competition is suppressed. Classes are taught by overwhelmingly female teachers who know very little and prioritize discipline and busywork.

We are immigrants but moved back to our old country mainly because schools are much better. And boy, do boys thrive here. They are so much better academically (about equal with girls) and more confident. Society needs both men and women, and men and women need each other.

Teachers have been overwhelmingly female in the US for more than a century.

I do agree the curriculum has been dumbed down, but I don't see that as a reason boys in particular are generally less successful or less prepared.

because they can't handle boredom as well as girls can.

pretty sure 100 years ago, school was boring, too, yet more boys went to college than girls. Oh, that's right, back then it wasn't really accepted for girls to be educated, whereas today, it is.

This is what is so weird about "the feminizing of school hurts boys" argument. School used to be much more rigid, strict, focused on rote memorization, etc. I would think by modern standards, children of both genders would find it far more boring. And teaching in primary school has long been female - I think it went from about 2/3 in the 80's to about 70-75% in the last decade (hardly a huge leap). The difference is not that school is more strict/boring/female now but that barriers (some explicit) have come down for girls, and with more competition comes predictable results.

rote memorization is not boring, it's challenging. just like being spanked in school is not boring. what is boring right now is the easiness and repetitiveness of it all. when you are scared, you are not bored.

what? rote memorization is flipping boring.

Based on your statement maybe we should bring back corporal punishment in school, then maybe boys would do better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can only speak to my Big 10 alma mater but the college of engineering graduation we attended appeared to be like literally 90% Indian and Asian kids, both foreign and domestic born. In a state that's over 90% white and black.

But that doesn’t show all of the Asian kids who are struggling either because of burnout, mental illness, or learning disabilities. The myth of the model minority really hurts Asian kids —particularly boys.

ok, but this thread is about boys who don't go to college. Statistics show many Asian boys do go to college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It looks like Nursing and Education are subjects dominated by women students. And both are very important. But men just don't want to do those jobs. Engineering, Physics, Math, Computer Science on the other hand -- hard subjects, dominated by male students.

Except, even in the "hard subjects" dominated by men, there really are not enough men taking the courses. The guys are simply not showing up in relation to their population numbers.

Number of women enrolled in nursing + biology: ~170K

Number of men enrolled in EE, ME, Math, CompSci + Biology: ~120K

Plus there's probably around 20-25K women in the "hard subjects" you listed.

That 170 figure is mostly nursing. Teaching and nursing are two relatively underpaid “pink collar” jobs that men have never pursued in large numbers. It’s not making the point you think it is.

RN's are underpaid? The average salary for an RN is $77.460, and around here (DC) it's $94,820:

https://nursinglicensemap.com/resources/nurse-salary/

The average salary for a plumber, which others in this thread have said is a great job for men instead of college, is in the $40's:
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Plumber-Salary-by-State

[Anonymous]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/young-men-college-decline-gender-gap-higher-education/620066/

Atlantic Article on this issue

[Anonymous]

I dont think employers or colleges are fawning over male applicants, esp. white males. 60/40 ratios at colleges female to male. 1/3 of men in America aren't even participating in the work force. . . Looks like there will be far less SAHMs in my daughter's generation. Women will by and large be the breadwinners, by necessity. With slim marriage prospects. Sounds awesome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It looks like Nursing and Education are subjects dominated by women students. And both are very important. But men just don't want to do those jobs. Engineering, Physics, Math, Computer Science on the other hand -- hard subjects, dominated by male students.

Except, even in the "hard subjects" dominated by men, there really are not enough men taking the courses. The guys are simply not showing up in relation to their population numbers.

Number of women enrolled in nursing + biology: ~170K

Number of men enrolled in EE, ME, Math, CompSci + Biology: ~120K

Plus there's probably around 20-25K women in the "hard subjects" you listed.

That 170 figure is mostly nursing. Teaching and nursing are two relatively underpaid “pink collar” jobs that men have never pursued in large numbers. It’s not making the point you think it is.

RN's are underpaid? The average salary for an RN is $77.460, and around here (DC) it's $94,820:

https://nursinglicensemap.com/resources/nurse-salary/

The average salary for a plumber, which others in this thread have said is a great job for men instead of college, is in the $40's:
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Plumber-Salary-by-State

In the beginning maybe in their early 20s. Plumbers I know have $$$$ and retire young.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It looks like Nursing and Education are subjects dominated by women students. And both are very important. But men just don't want to do those jobs. Engineering, Physics, Math, Computer Science on the other hand -- hard subjects, dominated by male students.

Except, even in the "hard subjects" dominated by men, there really are not enough men taking the courses. The guys are simply not showing up in relation to their population numbers.

Number of women enrolled in nursing + biology: ~170K

Number of men enrolled in EE, ME, Math, CompSci + Biology: ~120K

Plus there's probably around 20-25K women in the "hard subjects" you listed.

That 170 figure is mostly nursing. Teaching and nursing are two relatively underpaid “pink collar” jobs that men have never pursued in large numbers. It’s not making the point you think it is.

RN's are underpaid? The average salary for an RN is $77.460, and around here (DC) it's $94,820:

https://nursinglicensemap.com/resources/nurse-salary/

The average salary for a plumber, which others in this thread have said is a great job for men instead of college, is in the $40's:
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Plumber-Salary-by-State

In the beginning maybe in their early 20s. Plumbers I know have $$$$ and retire young.

The links above are based on actual salary data, not the few people you know.

[Anonymous]

Plumbing is a sh#tty job, unless you inherit your dad’s plumbing company.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This would be my son’s dream school...

https://yscacademy.com/soccer/programs/

Not to be a professional athlete but to have a sport incorporated into his day in a consistent fashion.

Private schools already do this.....big emphasis on SPORTS FOR ALL....no matter the talent or lack thereof. Private schools sometimes maintain a varsity, a junior varsity, a frosh team, a jr. frosh, etc......

Right but private school boys are largely the ones going to college. I am saying there is some sexism keeping this model from public schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can only speak to my Big 10 alma mater but the college of engineering graduation we attended appeared to be like literally 90% Indian and Asian kids, both foreign and domestic born. In a state that's over 90% white and black.

But that doesn’t show all of the Asian kids who are struggling either because of burnout, mental illness, or learning disabilities. The myth of the model minority really hurts Asian kids —particularly boys.

nobody said anything about a model minority
the explanation is that engineering is very hard and only kids with very strict work ethic can graduate ... those cultures have a different view on work and educate their kids that there's no other way
MC and UMC white families spoil their kids, private school, etc, but think that the work should be primarily done by tutors, counselors, etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can only speak to my Big 10 alma mater but the college of engineering graduation we attended appeared to be like literally 90% Indian and Asian kids, both foreign and domestic born. In a state that's over 90% white and black.

But that doesn’t show all of the Asian kids who are struggling either because of burnout, mental illness, or learning disabilities. The myth of the model minority really hurts Asian kids —particularly boys.

nobody said anything about a model minority
the explanation is that engineering is very hard and only kids with very strict work ethic can graduate ... those cultures have a different view on work and educate their kids that there's no other way
MC and UMC white families spoil their kids, private school, etc, but think that the work should be primarily done by tutors, counselors, etc

What makes you think that Asian families don't hire tutors and use counselors? Hell, where I kids have math olympiad tutors in 3rd grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It looks like Nursing and Education are subjects dominated by women students. And both are very important. But men just don't want to do those jobs. Engineering, Physics, Math, Computer Science on the other hand -- hard subjects, dominated by male students.

Except, even in the "hard subjects" dominated by men, there really are not enough men taking the courses. The guys are simply not showing up in relation to their population numbers.

Number of women enrolled in nursing + biology: ~170K

Number of men enrolled in EE, ME, Math, CompSci + Biology: ~120K

Plus there's probably around 20-25K women in the "hard subjects" you listed.

That 170 figure is mostly nursing. Teaching and nursing are two relatively underpaid “pink collar” jobs that men have never pursued in large numbers. It’s not making the point you think it is.

RN's are underpaid? The average salary for an RN is $77.460, and around here (DC) it's $94,820:

https://nursinglicensemap.com/resources/nurse-salary/

The average salary for a plumber, which others in this thread have said is a great job for men instead of college, is in the $40's:
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Plumber-Salary-by-State

So ... nursing is a good job with great prospects, and men should pursue it? Great! We have a nursing shortage. That would mean lots of problems solved in one fell swoop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It looks like Nursing and Education are subjects dominated by women students. And both are very important. But men just don't want to do those jobs. Engineering, Physics, Math, Computer Science on the other hand -- hard subjects, dominated by male students.

Except, even in the "hard subjects" dominated by men, there really are not enough men taking the courses. The guys are simply not showing up in relation to their population numbers.

Number of women enrolled in nursing + biology: ~170K

Number of men enrolled in EE, ME, Math, CompSci + Biology: ~120K

Plus there's probably around 20-25K women in the "hard subjects" you listed.

That 170 figure is mostly nursing. Teaching and nursing are two relatively underpaid “pink collar” jobs that men have never pursued in large numbers. It’s not making the point you think it is.

RN's are underpaid? The average salary for an RN is $77.460, and around here (DC) it's $94,820:

https://nursinglicensemap.com/resources/nurse-salary/

The average salary for a plumber, which others in this thread have said is a great job for men instead of college, is in the $40's:
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Plumber-Salary-by-State

In the beginning maybe in their early 20s. Plumbers I know have $$$$ and retire young.

That $77k nursing number is the mean salary for all RNs, not starting salary. To become board certified as an RN, you need about two years of clinical experience on top of a 4-year BSN. So the actual career requirements are something in between a basic BS and a masters. This was being classified as a “tech/stem” job, so the comparison isn’t plumbers, it’s other stem degrees. The median data engineer makes $155k. Petroleum engineers $125k. Biomedical engineers $88k. The lowest median on this site is environmental engineer at $86k. Yes, considering the educational requirements, nurses are underpaid, not even considering what a hard job it is physically, in many cases.

The other big issue is that there’s not a lot of room for career advancement in nursing. It’s more like working for the federal government. You can move into management, but it’s mostly a step increase in pay. A data engineer will usually get stock options, and often have a shot at management, in a field where the sky is the limit on compensation.

https://online-engineering.case.edu/blog/highest-paying-engineering-jobs