Asians are suing Harvard and UNC - Chapel Hill for use of quotas

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole concept kind of puts Whites in a pickle. For decades, Whites have argued that test scores and the like should be used as the key standard for admission. That is because they knew that they held the “advantage” in regards to AA and Hispanic students. Now that Asians are beating them based on the test score rubric, they now want to embrace the holistic approach to admissions – something that URMs have advocated for decades. Now that Whites are in danger of losing spots based on the same standards that they have pushed, the other standards now have merit?

Well, I will say this and I have said this MANY times. If Asians are successful in this endeavor, those spots will not come from the AA or Hispanic side of the ledger. The people most at risk would be the White students who are mediocre compared to other Whites – the lower end of the White totem pole.

No, you are making an assumption that there is one homogenous set of "whites" on this issue, and your assumption is wrong. There's one set of "whites" (usually more liberal, tend to run the universities) who have traditionally thought that test scores should not be the primary factor and that URMs should get a leg-up. That's me, that's pretty much everyone I know. Now, we are consistently still saying that that should be the case. (I'd also add the socioeconomic status ought to count -- and at many schools does count.) Whether that takes spaces away from white students, which it probably always has, is not determinative of my view. Whether it takes spaces away from Asian kids is also not determinative of my view. No change, no inconsistency.
Then there's a second set of whites who have traditionally been anti-affirmative action. Those tend to be more conservative. They now still probably think it ought to be that way, where it's just test scores and the like. They also tend to be rich whites who don't like giving up slots to anyone else. Maybe they'll start to turn on the Asians, but haven't seen that yet.
The basic fact is that Asians are not underrepresented in higher education. They're overrepresented. (Simply measuring percentage in higher ed versus percentage of the population.) That's true for whites as well. Thus, I don't think they need an advantage.

Asian Americans may be "over-represented" when compared to the percentage of high school age group. (Approximately 17 to 18% for Ivy League schools versus approximately 10% of high school age group). However, that does not mean there is no racial discrimination. Common argument is the Berkeley/UCLA/Caltech argument of showing that these schools have approximately 45% Asian American student population (far more than 18% average Asian American student population of Ivy league schools) since they supposedly do not discriminate against Asian Americans even accounting for the fact that California would have more Asian American teenagers (probably around 16 to 18%) compared to the national figure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole concept kind of puts Whites in a pickle. For decades, Whites have argued that test scores and the like should be used as the key standard for admission. That is because they knew that they held the “advantage” in regards to AA and Hispanic students. Now that Asians are beating them based on the test score rubric, they now want to embrace the holistic approach to admissions – something that URMs have advocated for decades. Now that Whites are in danger of losing spots based on the same standards that they have pushed, the other standards now have merit?

Well, I will say this and I have said this MANY times. If Asians are successful in this endeavor, those spots will not come from the AA or Hispanic side of the ledger. The people most at risk would be the White students who are mediocre compared to other Whites – the lower end of the White totem pole.

No, you are making an assumption that there is one homogenous set of "whites" on this issue, and your assumption is wrong. There's one set of "whites" (usually more liberal, tend to run the universities) who have traditionally thought that test scores should not be the primary factor and that URMs should get a leg-up. That's me, that's pretty much everyone I know. Now, we are consistently still saying that that should be the case. (I'd also add the socioeconomic status ought to count -- and at many schools does count.) Whether that takes spaces away from white students, which it probably always has, is not determinative of my view. Whether it takes spaces away from Asian kids is also not determinative of my view. No change, no inconsistency.
Then there's a second set of whites who have traditionally been anti-affirmative action. Those tend to be more conservative. They now still probably think it ought to be that way, where it's just test scores and the like. They also tend to be rich whites who don't like giving up slots to anyone else. Maybe they'll start to turn on the Asians, but haven't seen that yet.
The basic fact is that Asians are not underrepresented in higher education. They're overrepresented. (Simply measuring percentage in higher ed versus percentage of the population.) That's true for whites as well. Thus, I don't think they need an advantage.

Asian Americans may be "over-represented" when compared to the percentage of high school age group. (Approximately 17 to 18% for Ivy League schools versus approximately 10% of high school age group). However, that does not mean there is no racial discrimination. Common argument is the Berkeley/UCLA/Caltech argument of showing that these schools have approximately 45% Asian American student population (far more than 18% average Asian American student population of Ivy league schools) since they supposedly do not discriminate against Asian Americans even accounting for the fact that California would have more Asian American teenagers (probably around 16 to 18%) compared to the national figure.

Sure, but if that's the only "proof", then it's not very good. The applicant pool to the Cali schools is different than the ivies. And different schools are actually allowed to have different criteria for admission. If the Cal schools weight test scores and GPAs more heavily and the Ivies weight other things (high school of origin, extracurriculars, etc) then you're going to get different results.
I think you could reasonably hypothesize that almost every applicant to the Ivies has awesome SATs and GPA. So then the schools are going to pick based on other things. (so, the kid with 10 extra SAT points doesn't beat out the kid with 10 less but who also has some great extracurric or something). Also, don't forget the impact of geographic diversity.
You really can't draw the conclusions you're drawing with the data you're presenting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole concept kind of puts Whites in a pickle. For decades, Whites have argued that test scores and the like should be used as the key standard for admission. That is because they knew that they held the “advantage” in regards to AA and Hispanic students. Now that Asians are beating them based on the test score rubric, they now want to embrace the holistic approach to admissions – something that URMs have advocated for decades. Now that Whites are in danger of losing spots based on the same standards that they have pushed, the other standards now have merit?

Well, I will say this and I have said this MANY times. If Asians are successful in this endeavor, those spots will not come from the AA or Hispanic side of the ledger. The people most at risk would be the White students who are mediocre compared to other Whites – the lower end of the White totem pole.

Good grief, don't the Asians have an entire continent already? I'm sure there are some top schools in Korea and China that Asian students ought to be able to attend. Asians did not found this country.

I think you are confusing "Asians" with "Asian Americans" living in the US. Under your logic it would be like saying "don't whites have an entire continent already? I am sure there are some top schools in UK or France that whites ought to be able to attend." Asian Americans immigrated to this country just like you did and whites did.

But the #1 immigrant to the US are Asians. So we are talking about Asians not just Asian Americans. The Asian Americans are in the same pickle as the whites. Many of them are not in desperate enough situations to destroy their children's lives with test prep and piano lessons with Chinese language classes on the weekends.

I think there should be a clear distinction between Asian International applicants and Asian American (plus permanent resident) applicants. The issue is clearly for Asian Americans NOT Asian international students. Asian Americans are entitled to equal protection under the US Constitution whereas international students are probably not. The case was filed on behalf of Asian American applicants who were rejected on racially discriminatory grounds.

But the Asians and the Asian American's are competing against each other for "spots" and it is clear the Asians are getting better grades than the Asian Americans and the Asian Americans are not getting the spots and they are pissed... and they should be because Asians lie, cheat and steal to get into colleges in America.

[Anonymous]

Arab-Americans are discriminated against, but there are no preferences for them in college. So are Jewish-Americans in many instances. I would imagine that it's difficult to achieve as a Muslim-American woman in the US. I think that's why it's problematic to only identify certain groups as worthy of a second look, different standard and not others. Any kid who has ever had a teacher unable to pronounce his name, been compared to Osama Bin laden, laughed at because she had an accent, etc. should perhaps get that look.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Arab-Americans are discriminated against, but there are no preferences for them in college. So are Jewish-Americans in many instances. I would imagine that it's difficult to achieve as a Muslim-American woman in the US. I think that's why it's problematic to only identify certain groups as worthy of a second look, different standard and not others. Any kid who has ever had a teacher unable to pronounce his name, been compared to Osama Bin laden, laughed at because she had an accent, etc. should perhaps get that look.

Are they underrepresented in higher education? If yes, then they should get a second look. If no, then they shouldn't. Of course there are particular instances, but if you're looking for a bright-line rule, then that's the only one that seems coherent.
If there's some "I was discriminated against as an Arab-American woman, and my mom couldn't go to school in her home country" background, then that should definitely go in an essay.
I wonder what people make of the "discrimination" against girl applicants. After all, it's harder to get in as a girl than a boy, all other factors being equal. So is that a lawsuit we need to start?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab-Americans are discriminated against, but there are no preferences for them in college. So are Jewish-Americans in many instances. I would imagine that it's difficult to achieve as a Muslim-American woman in the US. I think that's why it's problematic to only identify certain groups as worthy of a second look, different standard and not others. Any kid who has ever had a teacher unable to pronounce his name, been compared to Osama Bin laden, laughed at because she had an accent, etc. should perhaps get that look.

Are they underrepresented in higher education? If yes, then they should get a second look. If no, then they shouldn't. Of course there are particular instances, but if you're looking for a bright-line rule, then that's the only one that seems coherent.
If there's some "I was discriminated against as an Arab-American woman, and my mom couldn't go to school in her home country" background, then that should definitely go in an essay.
I wonder what people make of the "discrimination" against girl applicants. After all, it's harder to get in as a girl than a boy, all other factors being equal. So is that a lawsuit we need to start?

Women are given preferential treatment in admission to the MIT, CalTech, etc schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab-Americans are discriminated against, but there are no preferences for them in college. So are Jewish-Americans in many instances. I would imagine that it's difficult to achieve as a Muslim-American woman in the US. I think that's why it's problematic to only identify certain groups as worthy of a second look, different standard and not others. Any kid who has ever had a teacher unable to pronounce his name, been compared to Osama Bin laden, laughed at because she had an accent, etc. should perhaps get that look.

Are they underrepresented in higher education? If yes, then they should get a second look. If no, then they shouldn't. Of course there are particular instances, but if you're looking for a bright-line rule, then that's the only one that seems coherent.
If there's some "I was discriminated against as an Arab-American woman, and my mom couldn't go to school in her home country" background, then that should definitely go in an essay.
I wonder what people make of the "discrimination" against girl applicants. After all, it's harder to get in as a girl than a boy, all other factors being equal. So is that a lawsuit we need to start?

Women are given preferential treatment in admission to the MIT, CalTech, etc schools.

Great. How about all the other non-tech schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab-Americans are discriminated against, but there are no preferences for them in college. So are Jewish-Americans in many instances. I would imagine that it's difficult to achieve as a Muslim-American woman in the US. I think that's why it's problematic to only identify certain groups as worthy of a second look, different standard and not others. Any kid who has ever had a teacher unable to pronounce his name, been compared to Osama Bin laden, laughed at because she had an accent, etc. should perhaps get that look.

Are they underrepresented in higher education? If yes, then they should get a second look. If no, then they shouldn't. Of course there are particular instances, but if you're looking for a bright-line rule, then that's the only one that seems coherent.
If there's some "I was discriminated against as an Arab-American woman, and my mom couldn't go to school in her home country" background, then that should definitely go in an essay.
I wonder what people make of the "discrimination" against girl applicants. After all, it's harder to get in as a girl than a boy, all other factors being equal. So is that a lawsuit we need to start?

Women are given preferential treatment in admission to the MIT, CalTech, etc schools.

Great. How about all the other non-tech schools.

which is why on page one i said white girls should be on the side of asian-americans on this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab-Americans are discriminated against, but there are no preferences for them in college. So are Jewish-Americans in many instances. I would imagine that it's difficult to achieve as a Muslim-American woman in the US. I think that's why it's problematic to only identify certain groups as worthy of a second look, different standard and not others. Any kid who has ever had a teacher unable to pronounce his name, been compared to Osama Bin laden, laughed at because she had an accent, etc. should perhaps get that look.

Are they underrepresented in higher education? If yes, then they should get a second look. If no, then they shouldn't. Of course there are particular instances, but if you're looking for a bright-line rule, then that's the only one that seems coherent.
If there's some "I was discriminated against as an Arab-American woman, and my mom couldn't go to school in her home country" background, then that should definitely go in an essay.
I wonder what people make of the "discrimination" against girl applicants. After all, it's harder to get in as a girl than a boy, all other factors being equal. So is that a lawsuit we need to start?

Women are given preferential treatment in admission to the MIT, CalTech, etc schools.

Great. How about all the other non-tech schools.

which is why on page one i said white girls should be on the side of asian-americans on this.

But wait...I remember reading somewhere that there are more White women in college than any other demographic. Is that not true? I am just asking. I have no axe to grind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab-Americans are discriminated against, but there are no preferences for them in college. So are Jewish-Americans in many instances. I would imagine that it's difficult to achieve as a Muslim-American woman in the US. I think that's why it's problematic to only identify certain groups as worthy of a second look, different standard and not others. Any kid who has ever had a teacher unable to pronounce his name, been compared to Osama Bin laden, laughed at because she had an accent, etc. should perhaps get that look.

Are they underrepresented in higher education? If yes, then they should get a second look. If no, then they shouldn't. Of course there are particular instances, but if you're looking for a bright-line rule, then that's the only one that seems coherent.
If there's some "I was discriminated against as an Arab-American woman, and my mom couldn't go to school in her home country" background, then that should definitely go in an essay.
I wonder what people make of the "discrimination" against girl applicants. After all, it's harder to get in as a girl than a boy, all other factors being equal. So is that a lawsuit we need to start?

Women are given preferential treatment in admission to the MIT, CalTech, etc schools.

Great. How about all the other non-tech schools.

which is why on page one i said white girls should be on the side of asian-americans on this.

But wait...I remember reading somewhere that there are more White women in college than any other demographic. Is that not true? I am just asking. I have no axe to grind.

Right. Which is why they have the hardest time getting in now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab-Americans are discriminated against, but there are no preferences for them in college. So are Jewish-Americans in many instances. I would imagine that it's difficult to achieve as a Muslim-American woman in the US. I think that's why it's problematic to only identify certain groups as worthy of a second look, different standard and not others. Any kid who has ever had a teacher unable to pronounce his name, been compared to Osama Bin laden, laughed at because she had an accent, etc. should perhaps get that look.

Are they underrepresented in higher education? If yes, then they should get a second look. If no, then they shouldn't. Of course there are particular instances, but if you're looking for a bright-line rule, then that's the only one that seems coherent.
If there's some "I was discriminated against as an Arab-American woman, and my mom couldn't go to school in her home country" background, then that should definitely go in an essay.
I wonder what people make of the "discrimination" against girl applicants. After all, it's harder to get in as a girl than a boy, all other factors being equal. So is that a lawsuit we need to start?

Women are given preferential treatment in admission to the MIT, CalTech, etc schools.

Great. How about all the other non-tech schools.

which is why on page one i said white girls should be on the side of asian-americans on this.

Nah. I'm a white girl, but I still think racism matters and URMs should get a bump.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab-Americans are discriminated against, but there are no preferences for them in college. So are Jewish-Americans in many instances. I would imagine that it's difficult to achieve as a Muslim-American woman in the US. I think that's why it's problematic to only identify certain groups as worthy of a second look, different standard and not others. Any kid who has ever had a teacher unable to pronounce his name, been compared to Osama Bin laden, laughed at because she had an accent, etc. should perhaps get that look.

Are they underrepresented in higher education? If yes, then they should get a second look. If no, then they shouldn't. Of course there are particular instances, but if you're looking for a bright-line rule, then that's the only one that seems coherent.
If there's some "I was discriminated against as an Arab-American woman, and my mom couldn't go to school in her home country" background, then that should definitely go in an essay.
I wonder what people make of the "discrimination" against girl applicants. After all, it's harder to get in as a girl than a boy, all other factors being equal. So is that a lawsuit we need to start?

Women are given preferential treatment in admission to the MIT, CalTech, etc schools.

Great. How about all the other non-tech schools.

which is why on page one i said white girls should be on the side of asian-americans on this.

Nah. I'm a white girl, but I still think racism matters and URMs should get a bump.

If racism matters, then racism against Asian Americans matter as well both racism in general and the racism in college admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab-Americans are discriminated against, but there are no preferences for them in college. So are Jewish-Americans in many instances. I would imagine that it's difficult to achieve as a Muslim-American woman in the US. I think that's why it's problematic to only identify certain groups as worthy of a second look, different standard and not others. Any kid who has ever had a teacher unable to pronounce his name, been compared to Osama Bin laden, laughed at because she had an accent, etc. should perhaps get that look.

Are they underrepresented in higher education? If yes, then they should get a second look. If no, then they shouldn't. Of course there are particular instances, but if you're looking for a bright-line rule, then that's the only one that seems coherent.
If there's some "I was discriminated against as an Arab-American woman, and my mom couldn't go to school in her home country" background, then that should definitely go in an essay.
I wonder what people make of the "discrimination" against girl applicants. After all, it's harder to get in as a girl than a boy, all other factors being equal. So is that a lawsuit we need to start?

Women are given preferential treatment in admission to the MIT, CalTech, etc schools.

Great. How about all the other non-tech schools.

which is why on page one i said white girls should be on the side of asian-americans on this.

Nah. I'm a white girl, but I still think racism matters and URMs should get a bump.

If racism matters, then racism against Asian Americans matter as well both racism in general and the racism in college admissions.

Yes but since Asians are not underrepresented, you're not showing racism that impacts educational attainment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab-Americans are discriminated against, but there are no preferences for them in college. So are Jewish-Americans in many instances. I would imagine that it's difficult to achieve as a Muslim-American woman in the US. I think that's why it's problematic to only identify certain groups as worthy of a second look, different standard and not others. Any kid who has ever had a teacher unable to pronounce his name, been compared to Osama Bin laden, laughed at because she had an accent, etc. should perhaps get that look.

Are they underrepresented in higher education? If yes, then they should get a second look. If no, then they shouldn't. Of course there are particular instances, but if you're looking for a bright-line rule, then that's the only one that seems coherent.
If there's some "I was discriminated against as an Arab-American woman, and my mom couldn't go to school in her home country" background, then that should definitely go in an essay.
I wonder what people make of the "discrimination" against girl applicants. After all, it's harder to get in as a girl than a boy, all other factors being equal. So is that a lawsuit we need to start?

Women are given preferential treatment in admission to the MIT, CalTech, etc schools.

Great. How about all the other non-tech schools.

which is why on page one i said white girls should be on the side of asian-americans on this.

Nah. I'm a white girl, but I still think racism matters and URMs should get a bump.

If racism matters, then racism against Asian Americans matter as well both racism in general and the racism in college admissions.

Yes but since Asians are not underrepresented, you're not showing racism that impacts educational attainment.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab-Americans are discriminated against, but there are no preferences for them in college. So are Jewish-Americans in many instances. I would imagine that it's difficult to achieve as a Muslim-American woman in the US. I think that's why it's problematic to only identify certain groups as worthy of a second look, different standard and not others. Any kid who has ever had a teacher unable to pronounce his name, been compared to Osama Bin laden, laughed at because she had an accent, etc. should perhaps get that look.

Are they underrepresented in higher education? If yes, then they should get a second look. If no, then they shouldn't. Of course there are particular instances, but if you're looking for a bright-line rule, then that's the only one that seems coherent.
If there's some "I was discriminated against as an Arab-American woman, and my mom couldn't go to school in her home country" background, then that should definitely go in an essay.
I wonder what people make of the "discrimination" against girl applicants. After all, it's harder to get in as a girl than a boy, all other factors being equal. So is that a lawsuit we need to start?

Women are given preferential treatment in admission to the MIT, CalTech, etc schools.

Great. How about all the other non-tech schools.

which is why on page one i said white girls should be on the side of asian-americans on this.

Nah. I'm a white girl, but I still think racism matters and URMs should get a bump.

If racism matters, then racism against Asian Americans matter as well both racism in general and the racism in college admissions.

Yes but since Asians are not underrepresented, you're not showing racism that impacts educational attainment.

If we are going to go back to the proportional representation, we have to be consistent and talk about proportional representation in other areas as well.

For example, Asian Americans should make up 6% of the Judges in this country. Asian Americans should make up 6% of the politicians in this country. Asian Americans should make up 6% of the CEOs of fortune 500 companies. Asian Americans should make up 6% of the actors in movies and TVs. Asian Americans should make up 6% of the professional athletes in this country etc. The list is almost endless.

The point is, why is it that one area (academics) where Asians apparently are "over-represented" a major problem but the fact that Asian Americans are severely "under-represented" in virtually all other areas never a problem?

The proportional argument should be applied consistently for all areas not just one or two.