Can you tell me about upscale southern culture?

[Anonymous]

I grew up in this world in the South and it sounds to me as if at least 3/4 of the people responding to this thread have formed their impressions from television or literature rather than actual experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What some Southern Charm to enjoy the other side of affluent Southern culture.

I live in Savannah and am a member of the DAR. I know several of these families personally.

I grew up in Savannah and this sounds like the families I grew up with (not my New England transplant parents!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a person descended from poor white trash who went to southern private schools for 16 years, both k-12 and college, I am an outside observer on the subject of southern rich people.

Some are casually racist, some are not. Usually the richer and more well educated they are, the less classist and racist they are (in my experience) and try to make everyone feel welcome.

The warnings:

If the family welcomes all family members, they will usually have a number of eccentric family members they are fine with. And gay uncle Larlo and his partner Miles, for example, will be invited and embraced at family events, even if they aren't completely out. See, at least partially: a famous politician from SC.

Not all rich southern families are casually racist, but again, those with less money and less education than others are more likely to be racist than the richer, more educated families.

Beware any rich southerners who are still South Baptist or evangelical--they are the most likely to be racist. Episcopalians and Presbyterians, less so.

If I were your DD, I would plan for a longer engagement--she will need it if planning a large wedding that includes the groom's whole family and their old friends.

The one thing I have seen trip up people who marry into rich "old" southern families are the expectations: she needs to figure out what expectations there may be before actually getting married.

Does his family expect them to go to the family vacation house every single year, no matter what?
Does his family expect the couple to live near them, no matter what?

Does his family expect her to dress and act a particular way? (for example, many of the wealthier southern women I know have a fairly strict unwritten dress code, unless they are considered "eccentric.") It's fine to be eccentric, but there will be pressure to conform, which may continue on if they family is really conservative.

Does his family expect women to stay home and not work after they have children? Do any of his female family members work after having children?

If his family is old southern money, they are used to getting what they want. Your dd needs to observe his family and especially the female relatives, to see if there are any expectations they might not be talking about, which they assume everyone knows about already.

I've known really welcoming, wonderful, generous "old money" southern families, and then I've known others that could have stepped out of a southern gothic novel from the 1950s.

Chef’s kiss!

- native Charlestonian

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I'm from Atlanta and sometimes these situations are too good to be true. I knew a guy like this in college and as it turned out the family was in serious debt and ended up declaring bankruptcy.

Atlanta is VERY showy. A lot of 'all hat no cattle' types. I'd be weary and make sure she sees how he handles every day life. I'd also make sure they have conversations around family life and her continuing to work after children. Some men like this assume the wife will give up her career.

Yes a lot of all hat and no cattle. I'm the pp whose in laws are old south and they have a friend who hangs out with them that is a big time horse person from a super prominent family but is broke and always mooching off of them.

But did they have a sip and see?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Gucci is kind of tacky and Eurotrashy, no?

My DH is from a Virginia plantation family. We're one of the original families of this area. Their hobbies are Dog shows, horses, boats, that kind of thing.

Oh...and their other hobby is casual racism.

think of it as an homage to their history

Keep your racist BS to yourself.

How exactly do you think dynastic wealth centered around plantations was created?

Oh shut up. Accusing them of being racists without merit seems to be your typical agenda.

OP has already said they seem to be a very nice family, stop making things up.

PP was talking about HER southern genteel in-laws, whom she presumably knows well. You are taking this oddly personally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My D (graduate student) has met someone she is serious about. They have been seriously dating for about 8 months. We met him for the first time a few months ago and have since seem him 2 other ties. A really wonderful guy, very well spoken, intelligent, well dressed, kind of checked all the boxes. He has told my husband he plans to propose by or on her bday (July).

A few weeks ago we had the opportunity to meet his parents and sister. I was incredible impressed, all very elegant, well spoken, charming and could not have ben nicer or more gracious. I have admittedly not really known many people from the south. His family is a very well known affluent family and I am intrigued.

They almost were like characters from a book (in a good way). impeccably dressed (read expensive, Gucci loafers mom had a Kelly bag, etc..) They were incredibly charming and charismatic. I was impressed with how close they aLL seem and they spoke about a few family traditions of going to a family summer house every summer for 3 weeks, and then a big family trip in the fall.

Maybe I am intrigued because this is so polar opposite of how I grew up. I am fascinated by them, this is almost like a character study for me. I think she will be eventually joining what looks to be a wonderful very close family who has had the good fortune to live the good life. They seemed much more civilized/genteel than their northwest counterparts (or anyone who I might compare them to). I cannot find any fault.

Are proper higher end southern families this way? Just curious if this is the "norm"

Wow, so engaged after only a few months, parents wear very expensive clothing. Nothing else to see there, ticks off all your boxes.

angry much? OP here. A few months? they have known each other for almost 2 years, casually dating for about a year and a half and much more seriously dating for about 8 months. I have nothing to do with his wanting to propose. Are you kidding? It was.a surprise (delightful) to both my husband and I.

Money? We financially are their equal or possibly even wealthier than they are (but lead a vastly more conservative lifestyle) but I was not referring to the money aspect as much as I was the culture angle, maybe read a bit slower next time instead of trying to see it from your own purported and biased perspective. You certainly have many judgements to make, all unfounded.

So to answer your question, NO she is not marrying for money. Chances are she will get more from us than she will being married to him.

And ME having no requirements for marriage? I AM married so that is taken care of. I am not allowed nor would I think of demanding requirements for MY DAUGHTERS MARRIAGE. She is a 28 year old adult and can very well make up her own mind but thanks for the concern.

I wish you all luck, because you seem to have virtually no requirements for marriage.

obviously, your daughter is marrying him so quick for money. but how much will she get? Like, are we talking kid has trust fund with $5 to $20m in his name. or is it more like you hope his dad will offer to buy them a mcmansion with cash kind of thing, then maybe 10k here and there. Or maybe nice down payment, but with a mortgage (before parents die). These are things I'd seriously consider before rushing to marry and have a guys baby. It's a big decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My D (graduate student) has met someone she is serious about. They have been seriously dating for about 8 months. We met him for the first time a few months ago and have since seem him 2 other ties. A really wonderful guy, very well spoken, intelligent, well dressed, kind of checked all the boxes. He has told my husband he plans to propose by or on her bday (July).

A few weeks ago we had the opportunity to meet his parents and sister. I was incredible impressed, all very elegant, well spoken, charming and could not have ben nicer or more gracious. I have admittedly not really known many people from the south. His family is a very well known affluent family and I am intrigued.

They almost were like characters from a book (in a good way). impeccably dressed (read expensive, Gucci loafers mom had a Kelly bag, etc..) They were incredibly charming and charismatic. I was impressed with how close they aLL seem and they spoke about a few family traditions of going to a family summer house every summer for 3 weeks, and then a big family trip in the fall.

Maybe I am intrigued because this is so polar opposite of how I grew up. I am fascinated by them, this is almost like a character study for me. I think she will be eventually joining what looks to be a wonderful very close family who has had the good fortune to live the good life. They seemed much more civilized/genteel than their northwest counterparts (or anyone who I might compare them to). I cannot find any fault.

Are proper higher end southern families this way? Just curious if this is the "norm"

Wow, so engaged after only a few months, parents wear very expensive clothing. Nothing else to see there, ticks off all your boxes.

I wish you all luck, because you seem to have virtually no requirements for marriage.

obviously, your daughter is marrying him so quick for money. but how much will she get? Like, are we talking kid has trust fund with $5 to $20m in his name. or is it more like you hope his dad will offer to buy them a mcmansion with cash kind of thing, then maybe 10k here and there. Or maybe nice down payment, but with a mortgage (before parents die). These are things I'd seriously consider before rushing to marry and have a guys baby. It's a big decision.

Can the attitude and judgy comments please move over to their designated posts, i.e., airlines, customer service, schools, politics?

Seriously, wow this hit a nerve with someone.

[Anonymous]

To piggyback on the fashion comments: it takes longer for trends to die in the South. Younger women will dig in on a trend (say, giant sleeves) and wear it long past its due date. All their friends dress the same way.

- Charlestonian in exile

[Anonymous]

Bless your heart.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gucci is kind of tacky and Eurotrashy, no?

My DH is from a Virginia plantation family. We're one of the original families of this area. Their hobbies are Dog shows, horses, boats, that kind of thing.

Oh...and their other hobby is casual racism.

think of it as an homage to their history

Keep your racist BS to yourself.

How exactly do you think dynastic wealth centered around plantations was created?

This statement shows that you know noting about southern history. There was no dynastic wealth after the war; the region was devastated and did not reach any level of economic growth until well into the 20th century.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w25700?utm_campaign=ntwh&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ntwg2

Actually they did quite well after the Civil War. Less than two decades after the Civil War, Southern slave-owning dynasties were back on top of the economic ladder, according to an ambitious new analysis from Leah Boustan of Princeton University, Katherine Eriksson of the University of California at Davis and Philipp Ager of the University of Southern Denmark.

Even after the enslaved people on whom their wealth was built were freed, Southern elites passed their advantages to their children through personal networks and social capital.

Unlike in much of the rest of the South, wealthy white families in Sherman’s path often had their land appropriated, seized or destroyed by Union forces. By 1870, affected families had a staggering 40 percent less wealth than similar folks in nearby counties.

“Yet, even in this extreme case, we find that elite sons completely caught up with or even surpassed the sons of comparably wealthy families in neighboring counties,” Boustan, Eriksson and Ager write.

These white families seem to have drawn upon exceptional social connections, the economists find.

Most notably, they married up. Boustan and her colleagues analyzed sociological indicators such as birth year and name choice to demonstrate that sons of slave owners tended to marry women from families with even more prewar wealth — probably at least in part because of their father-in-law’s network and influence.

This doesn’t prove what you think it does. There are about four things wrong with this statement on its face. Anyway, all they “prove” is that areas in the South that were raided by Sherman weren’t worse off than “comparably” wealthy areas in the long run. They were “on top of the social ladder?” I think they mean “less poor than everyone else.” I’ve never heard anyone seriously make a case that the economy of the South wasn’t devastated by the Civil War (whether or not they got to meet General Sherman). I used to own a house in a town that Sherman did not touch (it fell early in the war), and the rich landowners in the area were not there pre-Civil War.

Try reading the study. I pulled quotes from Washington Post article covering this. We’ll wait until another highly respected Princeton professor develops a study refuting it. I imagine we”ll be waiting quite a while. Oh and the Sherman stuff was to show that even in extreme cases, they recovered and quite quickly. But sure, I’ll bet you can find an anecdote to contrary. you know, that’s why it’s called an anecdote.

Just reading what you posted — the excerpt specifically says they’re comparing the areas hit by Sherman to “neighboring counties.” If they made a broader point, you didn’t post anything that indicated that.

[Anonymous]

Chevy Chase has a garden club! They put on a tour. The houses are fun to look at but the gardens tend to be ho hum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm from Atlanta and sometimes these situations are too good to be true. I knew a guy like this in college and as it turned out the family was in serious debt and ended up declaring bankruptcy.

Atlanta is VERY showy. A lot of 'all hat no cattle' types. I'd be weary and make sure she sees how he handles every day life. I'd also make sure they have conversations around family life and her continuing to work after children. Some men like this assume the wife will give up her career.

Yes a lot of all hat and no cattle. I'm the pp whose in laws are old south and they have a friend who hangs out with them that is a big time horse person from a super prominent family but is broke and always mooching off of them.

But did they have a sip and see?

You can spend almost ANY amount of money on horses. A bunch of billionaires rented the ground in front of the Eiffel Tower to put on a horse show for their daughters. Georgina Bloomberg has one in Central Park. Horse people can get rid of any fortune I’m serious we are all Mackenzie Bezos but for spending it on horses instead of giving it away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:It's all about church. Where you go to church. I was invite to a Welcome Party, given in my honor when I moved to the neighborhood. All they wanted to ask about was church. Finally, for a few of them, I talked about our very urban church ...thinking, gee I guess they really have an interest. Wrong.

I think mostly, the ladies wanted to know -- which of their social circles I would frequent. When there wasn't any overlap, I was unimportant. I don't think it's that they decided, on any deep level, that we had nothing in common. I think it was more - their relationships are shallow and all they cared about was knowing I wouldn't have any affect on their established social circles.

Not for the wealthy! The wealthy southerners typically attend church, but their social lives and conversations rarely have anything to do with church. Trust me, I know. What you are describing is more middle class southern culture in a rural area or exurb.

+1 Social life revolves more around secular clubs than church for this set. Besides the big obvious ones like a country club and junior league, there are millions of other random clubs. My inlaws belonged to clubs related to things like showing dogs, gardens, sorority alumni, bridge, boats, books, and a bunch of other things I can't remember. All of these clubs have some sort of socializing element.

Garden Club. Every wealthy southern woman is in the Garden Club.

+1. And in some places, it's even more specific. The Camelia Club, for example.

Middle class and up... every single woman was in a garden club and a homemakers club. Joining the History (Hysterical) Society was also expected.

Yep. I'm the one who posted about all my in-laws' clubs. My MIL is the one who's in the garden club which is much more social than gardening. They will take some nice trips to see gardens, like the club took a trip to Paris to see gardens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in this world in the South and it sounds to me as if at least 3/4 of the people responding to this thread have formed their impressions from television or literature rather than actual experience.

+1. Even the thread that so many people are saying is "spot on."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To piggyback on the fashion comments: it takes longer for trends to die in the South. Younger women will dig in on a trend (say, giant sleeves) and wear it long past its due date. All their friends dress the same way.

- Charlestonian in exile

+1

This is true, certain stores tend to ship their "expired" fashions to the south, because they know it will sell well. That is why any thread that touts "southern culture" as "refined" is hilarious, without the author knowing what is so funny. Smug and refined are two different things. The most refined people I know certainly are not smug. I feel like this should be the "WTH are southerners so smug" thread.