Shooting in Munich

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

I assume you also condemn all the American Christians who are intolerant of feminism as well? All you have to do is look on Fox News.

The thing that I've been waiting to hear more clearly is the realization that conservative Christians and conservative Muslims have a LOT in common with regard to retro ideas about women's roles, sexual freedom, and homophobia. 2 peas in a pod.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

Moderate Muslims exist all over the world. Some may even be your neighbors. As I noted, even in Jordan there are plenty of moderate Muslims, they just aren't that common in villages. You tried to argue that the fact that there are radicals in Jordanian villages means that moderate Muslims are sympathetic to extremism. My point is that those villagers are not moderate Muslims so that conclusion can't be drawn.

But, you point to one of the major issues that I have with how we discuss groups like ISIS. If "radical Islam" is defined as being intolerant of feminism as represented by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then obviously a lot of Muslims -- maybe most of them -- will be radicals. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is hardly mainstream, but rather a fringe figure. There is a vast difference between Muslims who oppose Ayaan Hirsi Ali and those who support ISIS. So, it's not useful to lump them all together as "radicals".

I do not think moderates would sympathize with extremists. What I am questioning is the position that these extremist views are deviant and the religion is vastly moderate. Is that fair to say? I see more of a quilt with some moderate individuals and communities or countries and some extreme (like the example you gave of Jordan). Even extremist countries in terms of how women, gays and other faiths/sects are treated (Iran, SA, Pakistan more in practice than official sanctioned). How are they deviant from the norm though if there is no moderate governing body which sets that norms. In a way it reminds me so much of Judaism in being a living faith the rise bottom up from people and communities. As such, it is what it is moderate or extreme in the moment or hands in which you encounter it. Explain why I'm wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

I assume you also condemn all the American Christians who are intolerant of feminism as well? All you have to do is look on Fox News.

The thing that I've been waiting to hear more clearly is the realization that conservative Christians and conservative Muslims have a LOT in common with regard to retro ideas about women's roles, sexual freedom, and homophobia. 2 peas in a pod.

What American feminist is living under death threats that are not condemned my mainstream Christian groups? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who or what organization supplied his gun?

He would not have been able to legally buy a gun under German gun laws.

The black market is alive and well over there. Surprised?

Then Germany needs to quickly figure out where this "alive and well" black market for weapons is in the middle eastern immigrant community.

Coming across the border from Poland and the Czech Republic, mostly originally from Russia.

--German.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

My Muslim friends (Americans or immigrants living here in the DC area) are all moderate.

Go to the Mall in DC today. There is an interfaith rally to demonstrate support of/with moderate (i.e. most) Muslims. I believe the event starts at 5:00.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:Any German speakers should check out this video which is supposed to be the shooter from the McDonalds on the roof of a parking garage:

https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/756553983250931712

According to translations in the subsequent tweets, the shooter says he is German, was born in Germany, and was bullied while in social services. But, if a good German-speaker could confirm this, it would be helpful.

He could have been born in Germany but is the child of immigrants and most likely he is Muslim is my bet.

Yep. I lived in Berlin and Munich 2002-2004. Safe, safe cities. Big Turkish population in Berlin that was well assimilated.

Let's say it : radical Islam. That is what has gone viral. Freaks are drawn to it like a magnet. You can be nice and sweet and they still want to kill you because you are a non-believer (yes you newborn baby, 10-year old boy, etc).

They are told to come. Fit in and lay low (like the 9/11 killers at the strip bars; the college student and his brother responsible for the Boston bombings, the Orlando shooter that frequented Pulse)...all described as friendly. Read the websites by Isil, etc on how to spread Islam. Chilling.

I'm not afraid of immigration. My ancestors were immigrants. I'm afraid of the current talk of "let them all in and just be nice"...completely missing the point of that some are banking on just that to spread the evil dogma.

It's the ideology we need to change. Yes, war and bombing will probably only make it spread---but teaching these actions are bad and it's a threat to humanity and you should t do this to susceptible populations is not being done either---we aren't even allowed to call it what it is.

This is on Muslims. If I were Muslim, I would be enraged that this keeps going on. Every normal Muslim should be on the warpath against this. Muslim leaders need to stand up and show the world they will not tolerate it. They should say loud and clear to anyone considering this form of "Islam", "We will find you wherever you are, there is no place you can hide from us. Your relatives will turn you in, your neighbors will turn you in, your fellow Muslims everywhere will despise you forever if you turn toward "radical islam. We've had enough. When you behave this way, you hurt all Muslims." Etc.

We cant' do this. Muslims need to do it.

Why don't they? Do they secretly condone the violence?

The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

You really should not lump together "the gulf states" any more than we would like appreciate being lumped together with Mexico simply because we share a geographical region. Or do you think that our cultures are very similar since we're both mainly Christian nations?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

I assume you also condemn all the American Christians who are intolerant of feminism as well? All you have to do is look on Fox News.

The thing that I've been waiting to hear more clearly is the realization that conservative Christians and conservative Muslims have a LOT in common with regard to retro ideas about women's roles, sexual freedom, and homophobia. 2 peas in a pod.

What American feminist is living under death threats that are not condemned my mainstream Christian groups? Thanks.

You didn't answer my question. Do you condemn American Christians who are intolerant of feminism? There's plenty of nastiness against feminists and women in general on social media perpetrated by people who are most probably raised in the Christian faith. Just look on Twitter, or read the comments sections whenever women journalists post something with any kind of women's point of view.

And of course, abortion providers live in daily fear of being shot or attacked by radical Christian terrorists.

BTW, I am not a fan of religion in general and especially not religious dogma that holds women back and tells them their god-given place in life is to be the submissive helper to the male leader, whether that comes from Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu dogma. I just think it's hypocritical to be condemning the speck in the eye of someone else's religion without acknowledging the speck in your own. (Matthew 7:3)

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

Moderate Muslims exist all over the world. Some may even be your neighbors. As I noted, even in Jordan there are plenty of moderate Muslims, they just aren't that common in villages. You tried to argue that the fact that there are radicals in Jordanian villages means that moderate Muslims are sympathetic to extremism. My point is that those villagers are not moderate Muslims so that conclusion can't be drawn.

But, you point to one of the major issues that I have with how we discuss groups like ISIS. If "radical Islam" is defined as being intolerant of feminism as represented by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then obviously a lot of Muslims -- maybe most of them -- will be radicals. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is hardly mainstream, but rather a fringe figure. There is a vast difference between Muslims who oppose Ayaan Hirsi Ali and those who support ISIS. So, it's not useful to lump them all together as "radicals".

I do not think moderates would sympathize with extremists. What I am questioning is the position that these extremist views are deviant and the religion is vastly moderate. Is that fair to say? I see more of a quilt with some moderate individuals and communities or countries and some extreme (like the example you gave of Jordan). Even extremist countries in terms of how women, gays and other faiths/sects are treated (Iran, SA, Pakistan more in practice than official sanctioned). How are they deviant from the norm though if there is no moderate governing body which sets that norms. In a way it reminds me so much of Judaism in being a living faith the rise bottom up from people and communities. As such, it is what it is moderate or extreme in the moment or hands in which you encounter it. Explain why I'm wrong.

Again, what do you consider "moderate" and what do you consider "extremist". In a conversation about individuals who bomb, shoot, and otherwise kill innocent people, I define "extremist" as someone who supports those things. In that context, "extremists" are a small minority of Muslims. When you broaden the discussion to other issues, it gets complicated quickly and you and I probably have a lot of areas of agreement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

I assume you also condemn all the American Christians who are intolerant of feminism as well? All you have to do is look on Fox News.

The thing that I've been waiting to hear more clearly is the realization that conservative Christians and conservative Muslims have a LOT in common with regard to retro ideas about women's roles, sexual freedom, and homophobia. 2 peas in a pod.

They are not even close.

Conservative Christian views on women, with the exception of a few small cults or sects (like quiverfull) are more liberal than moderate muslim views on women and gays.

Coservative muslim views on women and gays are from the dark ages.

The world wouod be a much better place if conservative muslim groups would adopt the same views on women and gays as conservative Christian groups.

The two do not even remotely comoare and you know it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

My Muslim friends (Americans or immigrants living here in the DC area) are all moderate.

My Muslim neighbors, friends and coworkers living inside the DC beltway are moderates too; they are NOT the people I am talking about or concerned about.

Please stop mischaracterizing what I am saying.

I am talking about popular opinions within Muslim countries about Islamic extremism and terrorism.

[Anonymous]

You're basing your knowledge on the words of just one cabbie, and trying to convince us he speaks for multiple countries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So he's not a second generation Muslim immigrant then? Glad to hear he doesn't fit the mold.

I'm not sure what mold you think he doesn't fit? He fits the disaffected, bullied, school boy suffering from depression mold pretty well.

I just meant that a lot of these types of killings have been done by second generation Muslims. That's what I meant by "mold."

Your desperation to shoehorn this into something it's not is staggering. Guess what, it isn't Radical Islamic Terrorism. Sorry to disappoint you.

But it is a second generation Muslim.immigrant lashing out at the west from which he felt mistreated. Do you think he lived in a box and hadn't heard of any of the recent mass events?

Seriously. Same county as the ISIS train killings days ago. He said Allau Akbar when he killed too. He was muslim too. Clearly, he felt inspired to do the same. Secondly, ISIS called on westerners generally to carry out atracks, regardless of whether they are on some ISIS membership sign up sheet. To see no relationship is blind indeed. Interesting though that if unrelated police officers who have never met, different organizations, across the country shoot people dead, a relationship may be inferred immediately as far as their motive. But many choose to ignore the motive in Munich and just look to diagnoses, but not motives.

[Anonymous]

Where did he get the weapon (s) in a country with very strict gun control?

If he was mentally ill, how did he pull this off?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So he's not a second generation Muslim immigrant then? Glad to hear he doesn't fit the mold.

I'm not sure what mold you think he doesn't fit? He fits the disaffected, bullied, school boy suffering from depression mold pretty well.

I just meant that a lot of these types of killings have been done by second generation Muslims. That's what I meant by "mold."

Your desperation to shoehorn this into something it's not is staggering. Guess what, it isn't Radical Islamic Terrorism. Sorry to disappoint you.

But it is a second generation Muslim.immigrant lashing out at the west from which he felt mistreated. Do you think he lived in a box and hadn't heard of any of the recent mass events?

Where do you get that he's second generation? Where do you get that he was "lashing out at the West." This has a lot more to do with Columbine than ISIS.

BTW, to the person who asked where are the moderate Muslims, here's a hint: Adjust your geography.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Seriously. Same county as the ISIS train killings days ago. He said Allau Akbar when he killed too. He was muslim too. Clearly, he felt inspired to do the same. Secondly, ISIS called on westerners generally to carry out atracks, regardless of whether they are on some ISIS membership sign up sheet. To see no relationship is blind indeed. Interesting though that if unrelated police officers who have never met, different organizations, across the country shoot people dead, a relationship may be inferred immediately as far as their motive. But many choose to ignore the motive in Munich and just look to diagnoses, but not motives.

There was one report that he said "Allah Akbar" and one report that he made an anti-foreigner slur. Why do you choose to accept one report and ignore the other? If there is a relationship to ISIS that only the blind can't see, can you please point out one single piece of evidence? He had no ISIS material in his home and German authorities have said there is no connection to Islamic extremism. He did, however, have a book about American school shooters. You seem to believe that inferring a motive to police officers is wrong but that inferring a motive to mass shooters is correct. Why the inconsistency -- the same inconsistency you criticize in the case of police?