Shooting in Munich

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:What are the moderate Islamic countries where Jews, Christians and homosexuals enjoy the same freedom to 'be' as Muslims enjoy in the West? I am guessing there are some--Tunisia? Jordan? I just want to know where the voice and example of tolerance might arise within the faith community.

It is unfortunate that many Muslims countries are undemocratic dictatorships or kingdoms. As a result, none of the citizens regardless of religion have rights similar to those of Americans. But, with that caveat, Jews and Christians can live freely in most Muslim countries. Obviously, countries engulfed in war are dangerous for everyone and likely more dangerous for Jews and Christians (though not necessarily) and Saudi Arabia is a different -- though complicated -- story. Most Muslim countries take a dim view towards homosexuals though tolerance by the general public is often more than you would expect. A lot of this is cultural and you see a similar situation in some non-Muslim African countries. For instance, Uganda has a law jailing gays and actually had attempted to legislate putting gays to death. That law was supported by American Christians who worked with the Uganda government to pass the law.

If you are concerned about intolerant Islamic governments -- and you are American -- you should lobby your own government to change its policies in the region. The Christian communities of Iraq and Syria have been decimated by the wars in which we have engaged. Women's rights in Iraq were set back generations. We are literally aligned with al-Qaida supporters in Syria and one of the "moderate" groups we support was just filmed beheading a 15 year old boy. It is ironic that our own actions strengthen the most extreme elements of Islam and then we use the prevalence of those elements to condemn the entire religion. We are helping create a generation of traumatized refugees who we are afraid to let in our countries, but for whom we provide no place to go. It is easy to blame all of this on Islam, but we need to take a good look in the mirror.

[Anonymous]

Yes, and Kerry immediately rebuked them and withdrew support (beheading of 15 year old by rogue element). As you know, a Turkish army member was also beheaded on the bridge by a mob during the recent coup attempt - but we support Erdogan. Lifes sad and complicated . But thanks for the thoughtful response. More helpful than a roadmap of the past would be a roadmap for the future. What exactly am I lobbying for that would facilitate democracy and tolerance?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: It's totally acceptable. Except huge portions of the Muslim world are not in any way secular or 'easter/christmas' Muslims (using the Christian analogy). Where are the large groups of fully practicing moderate Muslims was my question?

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. They're everywhere, but it seems like you prefer to believe they are not.

+1. How do you KNOW there aren't other places with secular or easter/Christmas Muslims? Are you some sort of authority on religious practices? Or do you think the entire middle east is Saudi -- which I as a Muslim consider batshit. If you need actual countries/cities -- HUGE group of non practicing/secular/cafeteria Muslims in Egypt; Dubai; Jordan. Of course you won't believe me bc in your mind, no way can a Middle Eastern Muslim be non practicing. Also I think you're overlooking the U.S. also.

Again, where are the moderate practicing Muslims and who is their spokesperson/authority?

Basically, you are telling me to be moderate you have to be a non practicing Muslim. Thats startling.

Who's telling you moderate = non practicing? Some of my Muslim friends pray 5 times a day and observe Ramadan as instructed. They're not crazy, or talking about infidels.

Also, Islam is more about a personal relationship with God than Christianity. There's no praying to saints or pope to follow. Imams lead prayer, not give fire and brimstone sermons. I'm sure they do some counseling too, but it's not like Christianity. My friends don't regularly attend prayers at a mosque. They go pray and break their fast together a few days during Ramadan.

There is no spokesperson or leader for the followers of Islam. If you can wrap your head around different priorities in practicing their religion, this would be easier to understand. I am a devout atheist. I know about Islam because I've made the time to study about religions. I recommend you do the same. If you even took the time to read about Ramadan and Eid, you would understand a whole lot more. A comparative look at religions is not going to help you. See it from another perspective.

tbh, PP - Who has the TIME to learn about ancient beliefs that run the lives of "educated" folks?

Why should I be a slave to any religion? It shouldn't be MY responsibility to learn about the tenets of Islam - or any other religion for that matter.

Hey - don't knock a comparative religions course. At least college students are earning credit.

Well, those who don't care to learn a little bit probably shouldn't act like they know what followers of that religion think or believe. Choosing to be ignorant is fine, but own it.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are the moderate Islamic countries where Jews, Christians and homosexuals enjoy the same freedom to 'be' as Muslims enjoy in the West? I am guessing there are some--Tunisia? Jordan? I just want to know where the voice and example of tolerance might arise within the faith community.

It is unfortunate that many Muslims countries are undemocratic dictatorships or kingdoms. As a result, none of the citizens regardless of religion have rights similar to those of Americans. But, with that caveat, Jews and Christians can live freely in most Muslim countries. Obviously, countries engulfed in war are dangerous for everyone and likely more dangerous for Jews and Christians (though not necessarily) and Saudi Arabia is a different -- though complicated -- story. Most Muslim countries take a dim view towards homosexuals though tolerance by the general public is often more than you would expect. A lot of this is cultural and you see a similar situation in some non-Muslim African countries. For instance, Uganda has a law jailing gays and actually had attempted to legislate putting gays to death. That law was supported by American Christians who worked with the Uganda government to pass the law.

If you are concerned about intolerant Islamic governments -- and you are American -- you should lobby your own government to change its policies in the region. The Christian communities of Iraq and Syria have been decimated by the wars in which we have engaged. Women's rights in Iraq were set back generations. We are literally aligned with al-Qaida supporters in Syria and one of the "moderate" groups we support was just filmed beheading a 15 year old boy. It is ironic that our own actions strengthen the most extreme elements of Islam and then we use the prevalence of those elements to condemn the entire religion. We are helping create a generation of traumatized refugees who we are afraid to let in our countries, but for whom we provide no place to go. It is easy to blame all of this on Islam, but we need to take a good look in the mirror.

When people leave those countries and head to the west do they shed that matrix of intolerance like a second skin?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There is no spokesperson or leader for the followers of Islam. If you can wrap your head around different priorities in practicing their religion, this would be easier to understand. I am a devout atheist. I know about Islam because I've made the time to study about religions. I recommend you do the same. If you even took the time to read about Ramadan and Eid, you would understand a whole lot more. A comparative look at religions is not going to help you. See it from another perspective.

So it falls upon each practicioner and community to be a voice for tolerance, bottom up? I think this is what's confusing for those of us who are continually told that Islam is a moderate religion of peace and extremism is a rare misinterpretation/deviation. It is if you choose it but there is no spokesperson who says its so.

How did the rally go yesterday? I admire that if it occurred--especially in this heat. Any news coverage or links or anyone here who participated?

They should appoint a spokesperson, which isn't part of their religion, so you can feel better about their religion? It seems like it's your problem, not theirs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: It's totally acceptable. Except huge portions of the Muslim world are not in any way secular or 'easter/christmas' Muslims (using the Christian analogy). Where are the large groups of fully practicing moderate Muslims was my question?

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. They're everywhere, but it seems like you prefer to believe they are not.

+1. How do you KNOW there aren't other places with secular or easter/Christmas Muslims? Are you some sort of authority on religious practices? Or do you think the entire middle east is Saudi -- which I as a Muslim consider batshit. If you need actual countries/cities -- HUGE group of non practicing/secular/cafeteria Muslims in Egypt; Dubai; Jordan. Of course you won't believe me bc in your mind, no way can a Middle Eastern Muslim be non practicing. Also I think you're overlooking the U.S. also.

Again, where are the moderate practicing Muslims and who is their spokesperson/authority?

Basically, you are telling me to be moderate you have to be a non practicing Muslim. Thats startling.

Who's telling you moderate = non practicing? Some of my Muslim friends pray 5 times a day and observe Ramadan as instructed. They're not crazy, or talking about infidels.

Also, Islam is more about a personal relationship with God than Christianity. There's no praying to saints or pope to follow. Imams lead prayer, not give fire and brimstone sermons. I'm sure they do some counseling too, but it's not like Christianity. My friends don't regularly attend prayers at a mosque. They go pray and break their fast together a few days during Ramadan.

There is no spokesperson or leader for the followers of Islam. If you can wrap your head around different priorities in practicing their religion, this would be easier to understand. I am a devout atheist. I know about Islam because I've made the time to study about religions. I recommend you do the same. If you even took the time to read about Ramadan and Eid, you would understand a whole lot more. A comparative look at religions is not going to help you. See it from another perspective.

tbh, PP - Who has the TIME to learn about ancient beliefs that run the lives of "educated" folks?

Why should I be a slave to any religion? It shouldn't be MY responsibility to learn about the tenets of Islam - or any other religion for that matter.

Hey - don't knock a comparative religions course. At least college students are earning credit.

Well, those who don't care to learn a little bit probably shouldn't act like they know what followers of that religion think or believe. Choosing to be ignorant is fine, but own it.

So I ask you this - to what end? One or two "evolved" souls studying the tenets of Islam isn't going to change a goddamn thing. Do you propose making religious studies a requirement in schools across the nations? Should we take field trips to mosques?

I don't need to understand a religion fully to know that not every religious adherent is a crazy zealot, ready to kill the enemy! It's up to the religious adherents themselves to police their believers. I shouldn't have to participate in any "learning" in order to ensure our country is safe.

not a smart use of my time

[Anonymous]

Again, don't try to speak for them if you can't be bothered to do 20 minutes of reading. Just accept that you don't understand it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This article says support for the IRA was extreme limited.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/reports/america.html

As limited as they were, it goes to show that some white Americans do support terrorists.

There are over 1 billion Muslims in this world. I doubt a vast majority of them support terrorism, especially given that most of the victims of terrorist acts in Muslim countries are Muslims themselves.

Let's say only 1% support terrorism. That's ten million. That's a lot of supporters.

Yes, that is true. And, imagine if there were a billion Irish people in this world. How many do you think would've supported the IRA?

We don't need to "imagine" anything. Let's talk reality.

[Anonymous]

Its all sort of depressing and any solution to the grievances Muslims have with the west or withe each other will take many many years. In the meantime, yes they need to renounce violence against civilians as a solution. The IRA did. If they need a spokesperson to draw together the moderates in different communities, so be it. I am trying really hard to name.Muslim spokespeople for peace and non violence right now, along the lines of mother Teresa or the dalai lama. Maybe Malala can do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Again, don't try to speak for them if you can't be bothered to do 20 minutes of reading. Just accept that you don't understand it.

I'm not going to defend a religion if the followers don't try to defend themselves.

20 minutes of reading? b/c that's all it takes to understand the complexities of a religion with NO leader & with different levels of religiosity, as well as different interpretations of the quran.

Again, the "average Joe and Josephine" doesn't have the time to study this religion in depth. But by all means, feel to think you're an expert b/c you've read a few texts. And while you're at it, study up on cancers so that you can figure out how to cure them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, don't try to speak for them if you can't be bothered to do 20 minutes of reading. Just accept that you don't understand it.

I'm not going to defend a religion if the followers don't try to defend themselves.

20 minutes of reading? b/c that's all it takes to understand the complexities of a religion with NO leader & with different levels of religiosity, as well as different interpretations of the quran.

Again, the "average Joe and Josephine" doesn't have the time to study this religion in depth. But by all means, feel to think you're an expert b/c you've read a few texts. And while you're at it, study up on cancers so that you can figure out how to cure them.

They would be the best advocates for it being a religion of peace and moderation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, don't try to speak for them if you can't be bothered to do 20 minutes of reading. Just accept that you don't understand it.

I'm not going to defend a religion if the followers don't try to defend themselves.

20 minutes of reading? b/c that's all it takes to understand the complexities of a religion with NO leader & with different levels of religiosity, as well as different interpretations of the quran.

Again, the "average Joe and Josephine" doesn't have the time to study this religion in depth. But by all means, feel to think you're an expert b/c you've read a few texts. And while you're at it, study up on cancers so that you can figure out how to cure them.

Every time someone offers you information, you challenge it. If you want to know how it actually is, crack a book. If it isn't worth 20 minutes to learn the basics, then you should just shut your mouth. You're making a fool of yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This article says support for the IRA was extreme limited.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/reports/america.html

As limited as they were, it goes to show that some white Americans do support terrorists.

There are over 1 billion Muslims in this world. I doubt a vast majority of them support terrorism, especially given that most of the victims of terrorist acts in Muslim countries are Muslims themselves.

Let's say only 1% support terrorism. That's ten million. That's a lot of supporters.

Yes, that is true. And, imagine if there were a billion Irish people in this world. How many do you think would've supported the IRA?

We don't need to "imagine" anything. Let's talk reality.

OK, let's talk reality. More American kids have been killed by Americans with guns than by Muslim terrorists. The closest my kids have been to a gun attack was when that guy in MoCo MD shot several people at the mall in Bethesda and in Silver Spring. My DC's school is close to one of the places of attack. This is my reality, and it scared the hell out of me.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, the problem is that a vast majority in that percentage consider a "threat to Islam" something as simple as not being muslim, or not being a radical muslim, or being gay, of being an independent woman, or being a westerner, or whatever "infidel" is not exactly like their version of Islam.

Unless you can find a poll asking American Muslims, "what do you consider a threat to Islam?" you are really not in a position to make any assumptions about individual poll responders. That is pretty presumptive of you. Obviously, this is part of what is wrong with the question. How one person interprets "threat to Islam" can be completely different than how another interprets it. If a significant number of American Muslims thought that "being a westerner" was a "threat to Islam" and justified suicide bombings, we would be having such bombings daily.

Well, you are very presumptuous to say that Christians and Jews would answer that violence against civilians is an acceptable response to someone threatening your religion.

My argument was that Christians and Jews would be just as likely as Muslims to support such violence. But, you are right, I should support my allegation with data. It turns out that I was wrong. Christians and Jews are not just as likely to support killing innocents civilians as Muslims. They are more likely.

As this poll shows, 58% of Protestants, 58% of Catholics, 52% of Jews, and 64% of Mormons believe that targeting and killing innocent civilians is sometimes justified. In comparison, only 21% of Muslims believe this. Even 43% of Atheists think it is justified.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/148763/muslim-americans-no-justification-violence.aspx

The survey you are quoting is about civilians being killed due to military action. The survey is not about killing civilians in the name of religion (Christianity, Jewish, Mormon) nor about killing civilians who are a perceived threat to your religion.

Apples wnd oranges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This article says support for the IRA was extreme limited.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/reports/america.html

As limited as they were, it goes to show that some white Americans do support terrorists.

There are over 1 billion Muslims in this world. I doubt a vast majority of them support terrorism, especially given that most of the victims of terrorist acts in Muslim countries are Muslims themselves.

Let's say only 1% support terrorism. That's ten million. That's a lot of supporters.

Yes, that is true. And, imagine if there were a billion Irish people in this world. How many do you think would've supported the IRA?

We don't need to "imagine" anything. Let's talk reality.

OK, let's talk reality. More American kids have been killed by Americans with guns than by Muslim terrorists. The closest my kids have been to a gun attack was when that guy in MoCo MD shot several people at the mall in Bethesda and in Silver Spring. My DC's school is close to one of the places of attack. This is my reality, and it scared the hell out of me.

You don't need to convince me about gun control; I was responding to the PP who was using an imaginative number of Irishmen. Absurd.