Shooting in Munich

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Google Ali and ISIS...and you'll see a ton of ISIS leaders, fighters, and radical Islamic imams named...wait for it...Ali.

I just Googled as suggested and that's not what I found. But, then a person who simply Googles those things and stops may become even more ignorant than he started out. For instance, the first hit was "Imam Ali and ISIS", a Youtube video in which an Imam (Shia call their preachers Imams but Sunnis don't) rails against ISIS calling it un-Islamic. The second hit was another video by the same guy. The next several hits were about Ayaan Hirsi Ali who is a Muslim feminist who is very critical of Islam. It is possible that someone from a country that doesn't have many Shia might be named Ali, but the Munich shooter is Iranian. It is nearly certain that he is Shia, if he is religious at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who or what organization supplied his gun?

He would not have been able to legally buy a gun under German gun laws.

The black market is alive and well over there. Surprised?

[Anonymous]

There were plenty of ISIS fighters and Islamic extremists named Ali. Try harder. And perhaps dial back your constant "ignorant" shaming. We know you are smart, but you're obviously a bit insecure given that you constantly call people ignorant...and most of the time it clearly isn't warranted.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:There were plenty of ISIS fighters and Islamic extremists named Ali. Try harder. And perhaps dial back your constant "ignorant" shaming. We know you are smart, but you're obviously a bit insecure given that you constantly call people ignorant...and most of the time it clearly isn't warranted.

If you have evidence that the "Ali" we are discussing has any connection to ISIS, please provide it. I stand by my conclusion that an Iranian named "Ali" is extremely unlikely -- as close to a certainty as it is possible to get -- to have no connection to ISIS.

[Anonymous]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/navy-officer-who-trained-british-8406874


From the news last week...dude is named Ali.

I'm not going to spend any more time on google...this took literally 30 seconds.

The point I made is that you can't assume someone isn't capable of being radicalized because his name is Ali. If that's our approach to national security and combatting terrorism, then we are screwed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who or what organization supplied his gun?

He would not have been able to legally buy a gun under German gun laws.

The black market is alive and well over there. Surprised?

Then Germany needs to quickly figure out where this "alive and well" black market for weapons is in the middle eastern immigrant community.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Should the assumption be that all Catholics are pedophiles? And, of they aren't public ally denouncing it often that they are pedophile sympathizes?

Just curious.

Also, I'd like an apology from all Christians for the folks at Wesrboro Baptist. The funeral picketing is cruel.

Nice attempt at deflection. You completely mischaracterized what I said.

Let me ask you the question this way: if you could accurately and fairly poll average citizens in the Gulf states, how would they respond to the question:

- how do you view Osama Bin Laden?

THAT is a piece of the elephant in the room.

- an elephant you seem to want to ignore.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should the assumption be that all Catholics are pedophiles? And, of they aren't public ally denouncing it often that they are pedophile sympathizes?

Just curious.

Also, I'd like an apology from all Christians for the folks at Wesrboro Baptist. The funeral picketing is cruel.

Nice attempt at deflection. You completely mischaracterized what I said.

Let me ask you the question this way: if you could accurately and fairly poll average citizens in the Gulf states, how would they respond to the question:

- how do you view Osama Bin Laden?

THAT is a piece of the elephant in the room.

- an elephant you seem to want to ignore.

I'll be sure to go ask a single cabbie and make gross generalizations about multiple countries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

I'm not the PP, but all of the Muslims I know are the moderate kind. It's the biggest religion in the world. There are actually billions of moderate Muslims.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

Moderate Muslims exist all over the world. Some may even be your neighbors. As I noted, even in Jordan there are plenty of moderate Muslims, they just aren't that common in villages. You tried to argue that the fact that there are radicals in Jordanian villages means that moderate Muslims are sympathetic to extremism. My point is that those villagers are not moderate Muslims so that conclusion can't be drawn.

But, you point to one of the major issues that I have with how we discuss groups like ISIS. If "radical Islam" is defined as being intolerant of feminism as represented by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then obviously a lot of Muslims -- maybe most of them -- will be radicals. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is hardly mainstream, but rather a fringe figure. There is a vast difference between Muslims who oppose Ayaan Hirsi Ali and those who support ISIS. So, it's not useful to lump them all together as "radicals".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

I'm not the PP, but all of the Muslims I know are the moderate kind. It's the biggest religion in the world. There are actually billions of moderate Muslims.

Correction : second biggest, fastest growing

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

Moderate Muslims exist all over the world. Some may even be your neighbors. As I noted, even in Jordan there are plenty of moderate Muslims, they just aren't that common in villages. You tried to argue that the fact that there are radicals in Jordanian villages means that moderate Muslims are sympathetic to extremism. My point is that those villagers are not moderate Muslims so that conclusion can't be drawn.

But, you point to one of the major issues that I have with how we discuss groups like ISIS. If "radical Islam" is defined as being intolerant of feminism as represented by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then obviously a lot of Muslims -- maybe most of them -- will be radicals. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is hardly mainstream, but rather a fringe figure. There is a vast difference between Muslims who oppose Ayaan Hirsi Ali and those who support ISIS. So, it's not useful to lump them all together as "radicals".

She lives under death threats. What moderate Muslim group has come to her aid. For what? Speaking out against clitoredectomy. Against male hierarchy. I agree she's radical in the context of Islam, but only because it has such a poor poor record in so many places with regard to women's rights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

My Muslim friends (Americans or immigrants living here in the DC area) are all moderate.