Shooting in Munich

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

I assume you also condemn all the American Christians who are intolerant of feminism as well? All you have to do is look on Fox News.

The thing that I've been waiting to hear more clearly is the realization that conservative Christians and conservative Muslims have a LOT in common with regard to retro ideas about women's roles, sexual freedom, and homophobia. 2 peas in a pod.

They are not even close.

Conservative Christian views on women, with the exception of a few small cults or sects (like quiverfull) are more liberal than moderate muslim views on women and gays.

Coservative muslim views on women and gays are from the dark ages.

The world wouod be a much better place if conservative muslim groups would adopt the same views on women and gays as conservative Christian groups.

The two do not even remotely comoare and you know it.

I have friends who are in mainstream Protestant denominations who believe that it is women's role to be submissive to their husband and that it is men's role to be the leader of their family. Meanwhile the Catholic church won't allow women to become priests. Have you ever read some of the things Jerry Falwell or others in his circle of high-paid televangelists have said about women and gays?

Just look at the things that the Family Research Council puts out. Do you consider them a sect or cult? These are people that got prime time at the RNC.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/family-research-council

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

I assume you also condemn all the American Christians who are intolerant of feminism as well? All you have to do is look on Fox News.

The thing that I've been waiting to hear more clearly is the realization that conservative Christians and conservative Muslims have a LOT in common with regard to retro ideas about women's roles, sexual freedom, and homophobia. 2 peas in a pod.

They are not even close.

Conservative Christian views on women, with the exception of a few small cults or sects (like quiverfull) are more liberal than moderate muslim views on women and gays.

Coservative muslim views on women and gays are from the dark ages.

The world wouod be a much better place if conservative muslim groups would adopt the same views on women and gays as conservative Christian groups.

The two do not even remotely comoare and you know it.

I have friends who are in mainstream Protestant denominations who believe that it is women's role to be submissive to their husband and that it is men's role to be the leader of their family. Meanwhile the Catholic church won't allow women to become priests. Have you ever read some of the things Jerry Falwell or others in his circle of high-paid televangelists have said about women and gays?

Just look at the things that the Family Research Council puts out. Do you consider them a sect or cult? These are people that got prime time at the RNC.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/family-research-council

Just ignoring this... sorry...I'm just so tired of, when in doubt bring up Xstians.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

Moderate Muslims exist all over the world. Some may even be your neighbors. As I noted, even in Jordan there are plenty of moderate Muslims, they just aren't that common in villages. You tried to argue that the fact that there are radicals in Jordanian villages means that moderate Muslims are sympathetic to extremism. My point is that those villagers are not moderate Muslims so that conclusion can't be drawn.

But, you point to one of the major issues that I have with how we discuss groups like ISIS. If "radical Islam" is defined as being intolerant of feminism as represented by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then obviously a lot of Muslims -- maybe most of them -- will be radicals. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is hardly mainstream, but rather a fringe figure. There is a vast difference between Muslims who oppose Ayaan Hirsi Ali and those who support ISIS. So, it's not useful to lump them all together as "radicals".

I do not think moderates would sympathize with extremists. What I am questioning is the position that these extremist views are deviant and the religion is vastly moderate. Is that fair to say? I see more of a quilt with some moderate individuals and communities or countries and some extreme (like the example you gave of Jordan). Even extremist countries in terms of how women, gays and other faiths/sects are treated (Iran, SA, Pakistan more in practice than official sanctioned). How are they deviant from the norm though if there is no moderate governing body which sets that norms. In a way it reminds me so much of Judaism in being a living faith the rise bottom up from people and communities. As such, it is what it is moderate or extreme in the moment or hands in which you encounter it. Explain why I'm wrong.

Again, what do you consider "moderate" and what do you consider "extremist". In a conversation about individuals who bomb, shoot, and otherwise kill innocent people, I define "extremist" as someone who supports those things. In that context, "extremists" are a small minority of Muslims. When you broaden the discussion to other issues, it gets complicated quickly and you and I probably have a lot of areas of agreement.

Agreed to the latter. With regard to extremists...not sure the situation is as dire as I say or as sunny as you say. There are a few statistics in here that actually surprise and worry me. I bolded one. Yikes!

"What do Muslims around the world believe?

Like any religious group, the religious beliefs and practices of Muslims vary depending on many factors, including where in the world they live. But Muslims around the world are almost universally united by a belief in one God and the Prophet Muhammad, and the practice of certain religious rituals, such as fasting during Ramadan, is widespread.

In other areas, however, there is less unity. For instance, a Pew Research Center survey of Muslims in 39 countries asked Muslims whether they want sharia law, a legal code based on the Quran and other Islamic scripture, to be the official law of the land in their country. Responses on this question vary widely. Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law. But in some other countries, especially in Eastern Europe and Central Asia – including Turkey (12%), Kazakhstan (10%) and Azerbaijan (8%) – relatively few favor the implementation of sharia law.

How do Muslims feel about groups like ISIS?

Recent surveys show that most people in several countries with significant Muslim populations have an unfavorable view of ISIS, including virtually all respondents in Lebanon and 94% in Jordan. Relatively small shares say they see ISIS favorably. In some countries, considerable portions of the population do not offer an opinion about ISIS, including a majority (62%) of Pakistanis.

Favorable views of ISIS are somewhat higher in Nigeria (14%) than most other nations. Among Nigerian Muslims, 20% say they see ISIS favorably (compared with 7% of Nigerian Christians). The Nigerian militant group Boko Haram, which has been conducting a terrorist campaign in the country for years, has sworn allegiance to ISIS.

More generally, Muslims mostly say that suicide bombings and other forms of violence against civilians in the name of Islam are rarely or never justified, including 92% in Indonesia and 91% in Iraq. In the United States, a 2011 survey found that 86% of Muslims say that such tactics are rarely or never justified. An additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified and 1% say they are often justified in these circumstances.

In a few countries, a quarter or more of Muslims say that these acts of violence are at least sometimes justified, including 40% in the Palestinian territories, 39% in Afghanistan, 29% in Egypt and 26% in Bangladesh.

In many cases, people in countries with large Muslim populations are as concerned as Western nations about the threat of Islamic extremism, and have become increasingly concerned in recent years. About two-thirds of people in Nigeria (68%) and Lebanon (67%) said earlier this year they are very concerned about Islamic extremism in their country, both up significantly since 2013."


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Seriously. Same county as the ISIS train killings days ago. He said Allau Akbar when he killed too. He was muslim too. Clearly, he felt inspired to do the same. Secondly, ISIS called on westerners generally to carry out atracks, regardless of whether they are on some ISIS membership sign up sheet. To see no relationship is blind indeed. Interesting though that if unrelated police officers who have never met, different organizations, across the country shoot people dead, a relationship may be inferred immediately as far as their motive. But many choose to ignore the motive in Munich and just look to diagnoses, but not motives.

There was one report that he said "Allah Akbar" and one report that he made an anti-foreigner slur. Why do you choose to accept one report and ignore the other? If there is a relationship to ISIS that only the blind can't see, can you please point out one single piece of evidence? He had no ISIS material in his home and German authorities have said there is no connection to Islamic extremism. He did, however, have a book about American school shooters. You seem to believe that inferring a motive to police officers is wrong but that inferring a motive to mass shooters is correct. Why the inconsistency -- the same inconsistency you criticize in the case of police?

Is it possible that he was bullied by other foreigners, maybe from different backgrounds?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

I assume you also condemn all the American Christians who are intolerant of feminism as well? All you have to do is look on Fox News.

The thing that I've been waiting to hear more clearly is the realization that conservative Christians and conservative Muslims have a LOT in common with regard to retro ideas about women's roles, sexual freedom, and homophobia. 2 peas in a pod.

They are not even close.

Conservative Christian views on women, with the exception of a few small cults or sects (like quiverfull) are more liberal than moderate muslim views on women and gays.

Coservative muslim views on women and gays are from the dark ages.

The world wouod be a much better place if conservative muslim groups would adopt the same views on women and gays as conservative Christian groups.

The two do not even remotely comoare and you know it.

I have friends who are in mainstream Protestant denominations who believe that it is women's role to be submissive to their husband and that it is men's role to be the leader of their family. Meanwhile the Catholic church won't allow women to become priests. Have you ever read some of the things Jerry Falwell or others in his circle of high-paid televangelists have said about women and gays?

Just look at the things that the Family Research Council puts out. Do you consider them a sect or cult? These are people that got prime time at the RNC.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/family-research-council

All religions are cults. Catholics can corner the market on secrecy, however, particularly with regard to what transpired with the pedophiles as well as the inner workings of the Vatican.

I've know two Mormon families. Both wives happily accept being submissive to their husbands and revere the elders - all male - in their church.

I've taught young Muslim girls (in various stages of cover) and have seen how some of them "come alive" through their art and writing, as it allows them to express who they really are. I had a colleague refuse to ever cover again after being beaten by her husband, who was a "pillar" in the Muslim community.

I've seen Conservative Jews snub Reform Jews. I heard Reform Jews complain about Hasidic "cults."

It's all a form of control bc if there's a God, he/she/it really sucks at this job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

Moderate Muslims exist all over the world. Some may even be your neighbors. As I noted, even in Jordan there are plenty of moderate Muslims, they just aren't that common in villages. You tried to argue that the fact that there are radicals in Jordanian villages means that moderate Muslims are sympathetic to extremism. My point is that those villagers are not moderate Muslims so that conclusion can't be drawn.

But, you point to one of the major issues that I have with how we discuss groups like ISIS. If "radical Islam" is defined as being intolerant of feminism as represented by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then obviously a lot of Muslims -- maybe most of them -- will be radicals. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is hardly mainstream, but rather a fringe figure. There is a vast difference between Muslims who oppose Ayaan Hirsi Ali and those who support ISIS. So, it's not useful to lump them all together as "radicals".

I do not think moderates would sympathize with extremists. What I am questioning is the position that these extremist views are deviant and the religion is vastly moderate. Is that fair to say? I see more of a quilt with some moderate individuals and communities or countries and some extreme (like the example you gave of Jordan). Even extremist countries in terms of how women, gays and other faiths/sects are treated (Iran, SA, Pakistan more in practice than official sanctioned). How are they deviant from the norm though if there is no moderate governing body which sets that norms. In a way it reminds me so much of Judaism in being a living faith the rise bottom up from people and communities. As such, it is what it is moderate or extreme in the moment or hands in which you encounter it. Explain why I'm wrong.

Again, what do you consider "moderate" and what do you consider "extremist". In a conversation about individuals who bomb, shoot, and otherwise kill innocent people, I define "extremist" as someone who supports those things. In that context, "extremists" are a small minority of Muslims. When you broaden the discussion to other issues, it gets complicated quickly and you and I probably have a lot of areas of agreement.

Agreed to the latter. With regard to extremists...not sure the situation is as dire as I say or as sunny as you say. There are a few statistics in here that actually surprise and worry me. I bolded one. Yikes!

"What do Muslims around the world believe?

Like any religious group, the religious beliefs and practices of Muslims vary depending on many factors, including where in the world they live. But Muslims around the world are almost universally united by a belief in one God and the Prophet Muhammad, and the practice of certain religious rituals, such as fasting during Ramadan, is widespread.

In other areas, however, there is less unity. For instance, a Pew Research Center survey of Muslims in 39 countries asked Muslims whether they want sharia law, a legal code based on the Quran and other Islamic scripture, to be the official law of the land in their country. Responses on this question vary widely. Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law. But in some other countries, especially in Eastern Europe and Central Asia – including Turkey (12%), Kazakhstan (10%) and Azerbaijan (8%) – relatively few favor the implementation of sharia law.

How do Muslims feel about groups like ISIS?

Recent surveys show that most people in several countries with significant Muslim populations have an unfavorable view of ISIS, including virtually all respondents in Lebanon and 94% in Jordan. Relatively small shares say they see ISIS favorably. In some countries, considerable portions of the population do not offer an opinion about ISIS, including a majority (62%) of Pakistanis.

Favorable views of ISIS are somewhat higher in Nigeria (14%) than most other nations. Among Nigerian Muslims, 20% say they see ISIS favorably (compared with 7% of Nigerian Christians). The Nigerian militant group Boko Haram, which has been conducting a terrorist campaign in the country for years, has sworn allegiance to ISIS.

More generally, Muslims mostly say that suicide bombings and other forms of violence against civilians in the name of Islam are rarely or never justified, including 92% in Indonesia and 91% in Iraq. In the United States, a 2011 survey found that 86% of Muslims say that such tactics are rarely or never justified. An additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified and 1% say they are often justified in these circumstances.

In a few countries, a quarter or more of Muslims say that these acts of violence are at least sometimes justified, including 40% in the Palestinian territories, 39% in Afghanistan, 29% in Egypt and 26% in Bangladesh.

In many cases, people in countries with large Muslim populations are as concerned as Western nations about the threat of Islamic extremism, and have become increasingly concerned in recent years. About two-thirds of people in Nigeria (68%) and Lebanon (67%) said earlier this year they are very concerned about Islamic extremism in their country, both up significantly since 2013."


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Thanks for posting actual data.

My two cents: the fact that any percentage doesn't detest ISIS says something. And the fact that anyone thinks violent terrorist acts are sometimes justified is also appalling.

Stats like those are worrisome and foster skepticism about the religion.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Seriously. Same county as the ISIS train killings days ago. He said Allau Akbar when he killed too. He was muslim too. Clearly, he felt inspired to do the same. Secondly, ISIS called on westerners generally to carry out atracks, regardless of whether they are on some ISIS membership sign up sheet. To see no relationship is blind indeed. Interesting though that if unrelated police officers who have never met, different organizations, across the country shoot people dead, a relationship may be inferred immediately as far as their motive. But many choose to ignore the motive in Munich and just look to diagnoses, but not motives.

There was one report that he said "Allah Akbar" and one report that he made an anti-foreigner slur. Why do you choose to accept one report and ignore the other? If there is a relationship to ISIS that only the blind can't see, can you please point out one single piece of evidence? He had no ISIS material in his home and German authorities have said there is no connection to Islamic extremism. He did, however, have a book about American school shooters. You seem to believe that inferring a motive to police officers is wrong but that inferring a motive to mass shooters is correct. Why the inconsistency -- the same inconsistency you criticize in the case of police?

The eye witness account I heard from the eye witness herself, a muslim, that the shooter, an Iranian from Germany, yelled Allau Akbar sounded extremely credible. And she was a few inches from him.

Again, right after the ISIS mass killing on a train down the road, same county (not country, county).

How can anyone not see it was inspired by radical islam, by the recent nearby train killing?

By contrast, I have not heard from the other eye witness firsthand. If I saw that witness explain what they heard or saw, I could consider it more seriously. And "anti-foreigner" - what was the slur specifically?

Also, the two are not mutually exclusive. Surely, mass murderers are full of hate. Consumed with it. Why would it be surprising to yell a slur before murdering a bunch of kids eating at McDonalds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

I assume you also condemn all the American Christians who are intolerant of feminism as well? All you have to do is look on Fox News.

The thing that I've been waiting to hear more clearly is the realization that conservative Christians and conservative Muslims have a LOT in common with regard to retro ideas about women's roles, sexual freedom, and homophobia. 2 peas in a pod.

They are not even close.

Conservative Christian views on women, with the exception of a few small cults or sects (like quiverfull) are more liberal than moderate muslim views on women and gays.

Coservative muslim views on women and gays are from the dark ages.

The world wouod be a much better place if conservative muslim groups would adopt the same views on women and gays as conservative Christian groups.

The two do not even remotely comoare and you know it.

I have friends who are in mainstream Protestant denominations who believe that it is women's role to be submissive to their husband and that it is men's role to be the leader of their family. Meanwhile the Catholic church won't allow women to become priests. Have you ever read some of the things Jerry Falwell or others in his circle of high-paid televangelists have said about women and gays?

Just look at the things that the Family Research Council puts out. Do you consider them a sect or cult? These are people that got prime time at the RNC.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/family-research-council

Conservative Christians and conservative muslims are not even close. In fact, their beliefs and practices are centuries apart.

I am sure the women stoned for adultery or imprisoned for being raped according to strict traditional muslim sharia law or the gays thrown off roofs or the Yadizi women burned alive for being infidels who stood up to being raped and passed around as sex slaves would much prefer to live under even the most conservative family research council belief system under even "moderate" sharia law.

There is about 1000 years of evolution separating conservative Christian groups and conservative muslim beliefs, particularly with regards to womens rights and the most basic rights of gays.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

The eye witness account I heard from the eye witness herself, a muslim, that the shooter, an Iranian from Germany, yelled Allau Akbar sounded extremely credible. And she was a few inches from him.

Again, right after the ISIS mass killing on a train down the road, same county (not country, county).

How can anyone not see it was inspired by radical islam, by the recent nearby train killing?

By contrast, I have not heard from the other eye witness firsthand. If I saw that witness explain what they heard or saw, I could consider it more seriously. And "anti-foreigner" - what was the slur specifically?

Also, the two are not mutually exclusive. Surely, mass murderers are full of hate. Consumed with it. Why would it be surprising to yell a slur before murdering a bunch of kids eating at McDonalds.

One unconfirmed account of the shooter yelling "Allah Akbar" and the fact that you think -- you actually don't know -- that the boy was Muslim is all you have. Even you have to admit that is awful thin. On the other hand, absolutely nothing has been found to link the shooter to Islamic extremism. If he was into yelling "Allah Akbar", don't you think he might have done it while on the roof of the parking garage? Instead, he complained of being bullied and declared that he was German. No mention of religion at all. If he was influenced by Islam, don't you think a search of his home would turn up some sort of evidence of such? It didn't, finding instead a book about US school shooters. If he was influenced by Islam, don't you think it would show in his social media profiles? It didn't. Instead, he used a picture of Anders Breivik for a profile picture. He also launched his attack on the 5th anniversary of Breivik's attack. Breivik also attacked young people, just as this shooter did. The facts don't fit your narrative.

Also, that "mass killing" in the same county? The only one killed was the attacker. So, as horrible as the attack was, it can hardly be described as a "mass killing".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

Many of these people you deem functionally secular ARE moderate. Why is it so acceptable that people are cafeteria Catholics but so unbelievable that moderates are cafeteria Muslims. Moderate Muslims practice to some extent without doing EVERY SINGLE requirement of the faith -- maybe they pray once a day or once a month but not 5 times a day; maybe they don't do formal prayers at all but ask God to grant them their hopes and health etc. just like Christians do; maybe they go to mosque once every few months rather than every Friday or maybe just on holidays; maybe they've decided it's ok to have a drink or smoke once in a while but still decide against pork or premarital sex; or maybe they have premarital sex but only once they're in a committed relationship. What is it so hard to believe that they pick and choose just like Christians do?

I am one of these people. We do exist. And as much as people here love to say, well Muslims are at fault bc they need to be on a warpath against ISIS, well what exactly do you want me to do? I hate ISIS and will tell you that in conversation but like so many on here -- I am trying to pay down my law school debt, bill a million hours at work, and trying to pay my bills. What exactly am I supposed to do to stand up? And for all the people here who say -- oh Muslims look the other way even when they know someone is plotting -- that just isn't true. An attack happens and the cable news cycle focuses on it for 24-48 hrs and Trump says incendiary things about Muslims, people believe him, and then TV and life moves on. And THEN it comes out (as it did in Orlando) -- oh this guy was pretty shady and he was heard chatting at a mosque about how he idolizes some suicide bomber and some of the 50-60 yr olds who are regular mosque goers were hearing this and were NOT liking it and they DID call the authorities. Now if the FBI chose not to pursue it or dropped the ball or whatever, how was that their fault? How can it be said that NO Muslim reported him? What were they supposed to do -- go all George Zimmerman on him so they could spend their own lives in jail? And yet by the time all this comes out in an investigation, CNN has moved on and Trump makes no effort to correct himself and say -- oh Muslims did report this guy -- bc 2 wks have passed and we're onto a new issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

Many of these people you deem functionally secular ARE moderate. Why is it so acceptable that people are cafeteria Catholics but so unbelievable that moderates are cafeteria Muslims. Moderate Muslims practice to some extent without doing EVERY SINGLE requirement of the faith -- maybe they pray once a day or once a month but not 5 times a day; maybe they don't do formal prayers at all but ask God to grant them their hopes and health etc. just like Christians do; maybe they go to mosque once every few months rather than every Friday or maybe just on holidays; maybe they've decided it's ok to have a drink or smoke once in a while but still decide against pork or premarital sex; or maybe they have premarital sex but only once they're in a committed relationship. What is it so hard to believe that they pick and choose just like Christians do?

I am one of these people. We do exist. And as much as people here love to say, well Muslims are at fault bc they need to be on a warpath against ISIS, well what exactly do you want me to do? I hate ISIS and will tell you that in conversation but like so many on here -- I am trying to pay down my law school debt, bill a million hours at work, and trying to pay my bills. What exactly am I supposed to do to stand up? And for all the people here who say -- oh Muslims look the other way even when they know someone is plotting -- that just isn't true. An attack happens and the cable news cycle focuses on it for 24-48 hrs and Trump says incendiary things about Muslims, people believe him, and then TV and life moves on. And THEN it comes out (as it did in Orlando) -- oh this guy was pretty shady and he was heard chatting at a mosque about how he idolizes some suicide bomber and some of the 50-60 yr olds who are regular mosque goers were hearing this and were NOT liking it and they DID call the authorities. Now if the FBI chose not to pursue it or dropped the ball or whatever, how was that their fault? How can it be said that NO Muslim reported him? What were they supposed to do -- go all George Zimmerman on him so they could spend their own lives in jail? And yet by the time all this comes out in an investigation, CNN has moved on and Trump makes no effort to correct himself and say -- oh Muslims did report this guy -- bc 2 wks have passed and we're onto a new issue.

It's totally acceptable. Except huge portions of the Muslim world are not in any way secular or 'easter/christmas' Muslims (using the Christian analogy). Where are the large groups of fully practicing moderate Muslims was my question?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. De Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

Moderate Muslims exist all over the world. Some may even be your neighbors. As I noted, even in Jordan there are plenty of moderate Muslims, they just aren't that common in villages. You tried to argue that the fact that there are radicals in Jordanian villages means that moderate Muslims are sympathetic to extremism. My point is that those villagers are not moderate Muslims so that conclusion can't be drawn.

But, you point to one of the major issues that I have with how we discuss groups like ISIS. If "radical Islam" is defined as being intolerant of feminism as represented by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then obviously a lot of Muslims -- maybe most of them -- will be radicals. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is hardly mainstream, but rather a fringe figure. There is a vast difference between Muslims who oppose Ayaan Hirsi Ali and those who support ISIS. So, it's not useful to lump them all together as "radicals".

I do not think moderates would sympathize with extremists. What I am questioning is the position that these extremist views are deviant and the religion is vastly moderate. Is that fair to say? I see more of a quilt with some moderate individuals and communities or countries and some extreme (like the example you gave of Jordan). Even extremist countries in terms of how women, gays and other faiths/sects are treated (Iran, SA, Pakistan more in practice than official sanctioned). How are they deviant from the norm though if there is no moderate governing body which sets that norms. In a way it reminds me so much of Judaism in being a living faith the rise bottom up from people and communities. As such, it is what it is moderate or extreme in the moment or hands in which you encounter it. Explain why I'm wrong.

Again, what do you consider "moderate" and what do you consider "extremist". In a conversation about individuals who bomb, shoot, and otherwise kill innocent people, I define "extremist" as someone who supports those things. In that context, "extremists" are a small minority of Muslims. When you broaden the discussion to other issues, it gets complicated quickly and you and I probably have a lot of areas of agreement.

Agreed to the latter. With regard to extremists...not sure the situation is as dire as I say or as sunny as you say. There are a few statistics in here that actually surprise and worry me. I bolded one. Yikes!

"What do Muslims around the world believe?

Like any religious group, the religious beliefs and practices of Muslims vary depending on many factors, including where in the world they live. But Muslims around the world are almost universally united by a belief in one God and the Prophet Muhammad, and the practice of certain religious rituals, such as fasting during Ramadan, is widespread.

In other areas, however, there is less unity. For instance, a Pew Research Center survey of Muslims in 39 countries asked Muslims whether they want sharia law, a legal code based on the Quran and other Islamic scripture, to be the official law of the land in their country. Responses on this question vary widely. Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law. But in some other countries, especially in Eastern Europe and Central Asia – including Turkey (12%), Kazakhstan (10%) and Azerbaijan (8%) – relatively few favor the implementation of sharia law.

How do Muslims feel about groups like ISIS?

Recent surveys show that most people in several countries with significant Muslim populations have an unfavorable view of ISIS, including virtually all respondents in Lebanon and 94% in Jordan. Relatively small shares say they see ISIS favorably. In some countries, considerable portions of the population do not offer an opinion about ISIS, including a majority (62%) of Pakistanis.

Favorable views of ISIS are somewhat higher in Nigeria (14%) than most other nations. Among Nigerian Muslims, 20% say they see ISIS favorably (compared with 7% of Nigerian Christians). The Nigerian militant group Boko Haram, which has been conducting a terrorist campaign in the country for years, has sworn allegiance to ISIS.

More generally, Muslims mostly say that suicide bombings and other forms of violence against civilians in the name of Islam are rarely or never justified, including 92% in Indonesia and 91% in Iraq. In the United States, a 2011 survey found that 86% of Muslims say that such tactics are rarely or never justified. An additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified and 1% say they are often justified in these circumstances.

In a few countries, a quarter or more of Muslims say that these acts of violence are at least sometimes justified, including 40% in the Palestinian territories, 39% in Afghanistan, 29% in Egypt and 26% in Bangladesh.

In many cases, people in countries with large Muslim populations are as concerned as Western nations about the threat of Islamic extremism, and have become increasingly concerned in recent years. About two-thirds of people in Nigeria (68%) and Lebanon (67%) said earlier this year they are very concerned about Islamic extremism in their country, both up significantly since 2013."


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Thanks for posting actual data.

My two cents: the fact that any percentage doesn't detest ISIS says something. And the fact that anyone thinks violent terrorist acts are sometimes justified is also appalling.

Stats like those are worrisome and foster skepticism about the religion.

I found the statistic that 86% of Muslims jn America distance themselves from ISIS worrisome. That leaves 14% . How many people is that????

[Anonymous]

Germany is having a massive security problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. De Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

Moderate Muslims exist all over the world. Some may even be your neighbors. As I noted, even in Jordan there are plenty of moderate Muslims, they just aren't that common in villages. You tried to argue that the fact that there are radicals in Jordanian villages means that moderate Muslims are sympathetic to extremism. My point is that those villagers are not moderate Muslims so that conclusion can't be drawn.

But, you point to one of the major issues that I have with how we discuss groups like ISIS. If "radical Islam" is defined as being intolerant of feminism as represented by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then obviously a lot of Muslims -- maybe most of them -- will be radicals. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is hardly mainstream, but rather a fringe figure. There is a vast difference between Muslims who oppose Ayaan Hirsi Ali and those who support ISIS. So, it's not useful to lump them all together as "radicals".

I do not think moderates would sympathize with extremists. What I am questioning is the position that these extremist views are deviant and the religion is vastly moderate. Is that fair to say? I see more of a quilt with some moderate individuals and communities or countries and some extreme (like the example you gave of Jordan). Even extremist countries in terms of how women, gays and other faiths/sects are treated (Iran, SA, Pakistan more in practice than official sanctioned). How are they deviant from the norm though if there is no moderate governing body which sets that norms. In a way it reminds me so much of Judaism in being a living faith the rise bottom up from people and communities. As such, it is what it is moderate or extreme in the moment or hands in which you encounter it. Explain why I'm wrong.

Again, what do you consider "moderate" and what do you consider "extremist". In a conversation about individuals who bomb, shoot, and otherwise kill innocent people, I define "extremist" as someone who supports those things. In that context, "extremists" are a small minority of Muslims. When you broaden the discussion to other issues, it gets complicated quickly and you and I probably have a lot of areas of agreement.

Agreed to the latter. With regard to extremists...not sure the situation is as dire as I say or as sunny as you say. There are a few statistics in here that actually surprise and worry me. I bolded one. Yikes!

"What do Muslims around the world believe?

Like any religious group, the religious beliefs and practices of Muslims vary depending on many factors, including where in the world they live. But Muslims around the world are almost universally united by a belief in one God and the Prophet Muhammad, and the practice of certain religious rituals, such as fasting during Ramadan, is widespread.

In other areas, however, there is less unity. For instance, a Pew Research Center survey of Muslims in 39 countries asked Muslims whether they want sharia law, a legal code based on the Quran and other Islamic scripture, to be the official law of the land in their country. Responses on this question vary widely. Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law. But in some other countries, especially in Eastern Europe and Central Asia – including Turkey (12%), Kazakhstan (10%) and Azerbaijan (8%) – relatively few favor the implementation of sharia law.

How do Muslims feel about groups like ISIS?

Recent surveys show that most people in several countries with significant Muslim populations have an unfavorable view of ISIS, including virtually all respondents in Lebanon and 94% in Jordan. Relatively small shares say they see ISIS favorably. In some countries, considerable portions of the population do not offer an opinion about ISIS, including a majority (62%) of Pakistanis.

Favorable views of ISIS are somewhat higher in Nigeria (14%) than most other nations. Among Nigerian Muslims, 20% say they see ISIS favorably (compared with 7% of Nigerian Christians). The Nigerian militant group Boko Haram, which has been conducting a terrorist campaign in the country for years, has sworn allegiance to ISIS.

More generally, Muslims mostly say that suicide bombings and other forms of violence against civilians in the name of Islam are rarely or never justified, including 92% in Indonesia and 91% in Iraq. In the United States, a 2011 survey found that 86% of Muslims say that such tactics are rarely or never justified. An additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified and 1% say they are often justified in these circumstances.

In a few countries, a quarter or more of Muslims say that these acts of violence are at least sometimes justified, including 40% in the Palestinian territories, 39% in Afghanistan, 29% in Egypt and 26% in Bangladesh.

In many cases, people in countries with large Muslim populations are as concerned as Western nations about the threat of Islamic extremism, and have become increasingly concerned in recent years. About two-thirds of people in Nigeria (68%) and Lebanon (67%) said earlier this year they are very concerned about Islamic extremism in their country, both up significantly since 2013."


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Thanks for posting actual data.

My two cents: the fact that any percentage doesn't detest ISIS says something. And the fact that anyone thinks violent terrorist acts are sometimes justified is also appalling.

Stats like those are worrisome and foster skepticism about the religion.

I found the statistic that 86% of Muslims jn America distance themselves from ISIS worrisome. That leaves 14% . How many people is that????

Exactly.

Those stats deflate the argument that only a teeny tiny select number of people support the barbaric beliefs of ISIS. Scary.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I found the statistic that 86% of Muslims jn America distance themselves from ISIS worrisome. That leaves 14% . How many people is that????

Exactly.

Those stats deflate the argument that only a teeny tiny select number of people support the barbaric beliefs of ISIS. Scary.

Actually, the statistic that you cite was not included among the data above. I assume that you are referring to this:

"In the United States, a 2011 survey found that 86% of Muslims say that such tactics are rarely or never justified. An additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified and 1% say they are often justified in these circumstances."

Here is the exact question asked:

"Some people think that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies. Other people believe that, no matter what the reason, this kind of violence is never justified. Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is often justified to defend Islam, sometimes justified, rarely justified, or never justified?" (Bolding added).

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-selected-questions.pdf

It is important to note that the question was about defending Islam from its enemies. If Americans were asked whether bombings that killed innocent civilians were justified to defend the United States from its enemies, I would bet that a lot more than 1% would say that it is often justified.