Shooting in Munich

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are the moderate Islamic countries where Jews, Christians and homosexuals enjoy the same freedom to 'be' as Muslims enjoy in the West? I am guessing there are some--Tunisia? Jordan? I just want to know where the voice and example of tolerance might arise within the faith community.

It is unfortunate that many Muslims countries are undemocratic dictatorships or kingdoms. As a result, none of the citizens regardless of religion have rights similar to those of Americans. But, with that caveat, Jews and Christians can live freely in most Muslim countries. Obviously, countries engulfed in war are dangerous for everyone and likely more dangerous for Jews and Christians (though not necessarily) and Saudi Arabia is a different -- though complicated -- story. Most Muslim countries take a dim view towards homosexuals though tolerance by the general public is often more than you would expect. A lot of this is cultural and you see a similar situation in some non-Muslim African countries. For instance, Uganda has a law jailing gays and actually had attempted to legislate putting gays to death. That law was supported by American Christians who worked with the Uganda government to pass the law.

If you are concerned about intolerant Islamic governments -- and you are American -- you should lobby your own government to change its policies in the region. The Christian communities of Iraq and Syria have been decimated by the wars in which we have engaged. Women's rights in Iraq were set back generations. We are literally aligned with al-Qaida supporters in Syria and one of the "moderate" groups we support was just filmed beheading a 15 year old boy. It is ironic that our own actions strengthen the most extreme elements of Islam and then we use the prevalence of those elements to condemn the entire religion. We are helping create a generation of traumatized refugees who we are afraid to let in our countries, but for whom we provide no place to go. It is easy to blame all of this on Islam, but we need to take a good look in the mirror.

When people leave those countries and head to the west do they shed that matrix of intolerance like a second skin?

Matrix of intolerance? You sound like a GOP speech writer--very "axis of evil."

I imagine most people who manage to flee war torn hell-scapes are just grateful to be alive and not being shot at or blown up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Its all sort of depressing and any solution to the grievances Muslims have with the west or withe each other will take many many years. In the meantime, yes they need to renounce violence against civilians as a solution. The IRA did. If they need a spokesperson to draw together the moderates in different communities, so be it. I am trying really hard to name.Muslim spokespeople for peace and non violence right now, along the lines of mother Teresa or the dalai lama. Maybe Malala can do it.

Thing is that the IRA is now back and the marches are once again occurring in Northern Ireland. You can tamp down the terrorist for a bit then another group appears. First Al Qaeda, then ISIL,now ISIS. None of the last three has a recognized governmental structure, so who becomes their spokesman really isn't speaking on behalf of anyone except a group of terrorists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are the moderate Islamic countries where Jews, Christians and homosexuals enjoy the same freedom to 'be' as Muslims enjoy in the West? I am guessing there are some--Tunisia? Jordan? I just want to know where the voice and example of tolerance might arise within the faith community.

It is unfortunate that many Muslims countries are undemocratic dictatorships or kingdoms. As a result, none of the citizens regardless of religion have rights similar to those of Americans. But, with that caveat, Jews and Christians can live freely in most Muslim countries. Obviously, countries engulfed in war are dangerous for everyone and likely more dangerous for Jews and Christians (though not necessarily) and Saudi Arabia is a different -- though complicated -- story. Most Muslim countries take a dim view towards homosexuals though tolerance by the general public is often more than you would expect. A lot of this is cultural and you see a similar situation in some non-Muslim African countries. For instance, Uganda has a law jailing gays and actually had attempted to legislate putting gays to death. That law was supported by American Christians who worked with the Uganda government to pass the law.

If you are concerned about intolerant Islamic governments -- and you are American -- you should lobby your own government to change its policies in the region. The Christian communities of Iraq and Syria have been decimated by the wars in which we have engaged. Women's rights in Iraq were set back generations. We are literally aligned with al-Qaida supporters in Syria and one of the "moderate" groups we support was just filmed beheading a 15 year old boy. It is ironic that our own actions strengthen the most extreme elements of Islam and then we use the prevalence of those elements to condemn the entire religion. We are helping create a generation of traumatized refugees who we are afraid to let in our countries, but for whom we provide no place to go. It is easy to blame all of this on Islam, but we need to take a good look in the mirror.

When people leave those countries and head to the west do they shed that matrix of intolerance like a second skin?

Matrix of intolerance? You sound like a GOP speech writer--very "axis of evil."

I imagine most people who manage to flee war torn hell-scapes are just grateful to be alive and not being shot at or blown up.

I'm sure they are too. So you are saying that the relief causes them to shed a lifetime of intolerant practices?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This article says support for the IRA was extreme limited.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/reports/america.html

As limited as they were, it goes to show that some white Americans do support terrorists.

There are over 1 billion Muslims in this world. I doubt a vast majority of them support terrorism, especially given that most of the victims of terrorist acts in Muslim countries are Muslims themselves.

Let's say only 1% support terrorism. That's ten million. That's a lot of supporters.

Yes, that is true. And, imagine if there were a billion Irish people in this world. How many do you think would've supported the IRA?

We don't need to "imagine" anything. Let's talk reality.

OK, let's talk reality. More American kids have been killed by Americans with guns than by Muslim terrorists. The closest my kids have been to a gun attack was when that guy in MoCo MD shot several people at the mall in Bethesda and in Silver Spring. My DC's school is close to one of the places of attack. This is my reality, and it scared the hell out of me.

You don't need to convince me about gun control; I was responding to the PP who was using an imaginative number of Irishmen. Absurd.

So we are only allowed to address American gun violence? We are not allowed to talk about rampages that are setting records for mass killings? OK--I'll bite. Let's talk about Chicago. Are those legal guns? If not, how would you round up all the illegal guns in a country of this size?

[Anonymous]

Do you support draconian measures for anyone caught with an illegal gun? lifetime imprisonment? what? remember, the crack scourge wreaked havoc, draconian penalities were introduced, ballooned the AA prison populations, and all that is being rolled back now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do you support draconian measures for anyone caught with an illegal gun? lifetime imprisonment? what? remember, the crack scourge wreaked havoc, draconian penalities were introduced, ballooned the AA prison populations, and all that is being rolled back now.

No, it's only being rolled back because now it's affecting the white population, too.

[jsteele]

This thread has gone sufficiently off topic and I'm going to put it to bed. Gun control can be discussed in the political forum.