Started working at an elementary school last week. Shocked and sad. AMA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

You don't even understand what inclusion is. Why do people insist on vocalizing uneducated opinions?

See, sweetheart, a teacher replied to this too — do you think they also misunderstand ‘inclusion’?

My smart, sensitive, social 3rd grader attends an excellent large public, with great teachers, and we see some of this, too. We have plenty of kids with in-denial parents who can’t accept that their angels make death threats or attack kids in the bathroom. Kids who pull this crap - I would say publicly I don’t give a good goddamned thing about WHAT causes the kind of behavior that traumatizes other humans. I DON’T. There are over 2 dozen children in every classroom with one unmanageable child! So many of these posts just insist that THEIR education is secondary to the fits and the violence and IT ISN’T. I will never ever stop confronting this detestable entitlement because THAT is what it is of parents (here obviously on this damned thread) and their apologists (ditto). We can and should confront what inclusion and access mean for everyone in a population FGS.

Sweetheart?

I’m sure her principal knows that that particular teacher’s abilities are limited. No teacher worth their salt acts like that.

+1 lol at this teacher. Couldn't handle a challenging class so their principal moved them into something more their speed.

Why should I do more work for the same money and loads of IEP meetings with parents like you? Only an idiot would take that deal. At our school, sped inclusion is all junior teachers.

At least at our parochial school, the older, more experienced teachers are always known for being the best with SN children. Sure, *like the public schools*, if there are disruptive behaviors and those behaviors can't be contained, the child is eventually asked to leave. But in the meantime, clearly the better teachers know how to deal with the variety of special needs presented (disruptive and physical behaviors, learning disabilities, emotional regulation issues, neuroatypicalities). They take that job, for even less money than you make... because they love and seek to understand all children. You shouldn't be a teacher if you don't.

Do you know how condescending this sounds, that teachers should basically work for the love of the job as opposed to making decent wages? Would you take on more challenging work at your job without additional compensation? Let’s be real there are definitely sexist connotations to this concept of teachers (predominantly women) taking on the work for the love of children. No one would talk like this about a male-dominated industry.

What emotional drivel. There are absolutely men teaching at these schools that I was thinking about when I wrote this post. But if changing the subject makes you feel better about stomping on SN kids. Cool. No amount of reason will help you.

Sorry your kid is the problem. I'm sure that's hard, but that doesn't actually make him more important than all the other kids, even though we know you DGAF if your child negatively impacts the rest of the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is central office won't allow a child to be removed. Even if you have tons of data. Ask me how I know

For a violent kid who has hurt others? B.S.

I'm a special ed lawyer who regularly fights to get violent kids placed in non-general education settings. Absolutely not BS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

Op here. I do believe in inclusion! But not to this degree. We have kids with severe issues and in many cases they are not getting what they need by being mainstreamed even with an aide. And they are severely disrupting the education of 20-24 of their peers. An example from this week is a severely autistic child was having a screaming outburst and a permanent aide and main classroom teacher were sitting with him, and asking him around, talking and giving him choices, asking if he needed to go out for a walk… Meanwhile 23 kids don’t have a teacher and have missed much of their literacy time. In this case perhaps the kid should be mainstreamed with an aide (I don’t know all the details of his IEP), but during prolonged outbursts I think the aide and student should leave the classroom.

In your example of a kid biting… I mean, realistically at the elementary age kids do sometimes bite and kick and hit. I do think consequences should exist and the incidents should be written up, but suspending a 5 year old for biting a classmate doesn’t seem realistic.

OP, when I first met with the teacher, she very, very, very carefully (did I say carefully?) explained that she had tried to get the disruptive kid with a dx reassigned but the principal did not support her. The way the system works is the public school system must pay for the student’s private placement, so the school administration desperately tries to avoid this. Often they do it by blaming the teacher. Your best bet is that at least one parent observes what is going on and requests a meeting with you. From there, the parents need to document and force the issue. They need to make the case that their kids are being harmed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is central office won't allow a child to be removed. Even if you have tons of data. Ask me how I know

For a violent kid who has hurt others? B.S.

Any clue how many people he violently attacked before the 6 yr old perpetrator shot his teacher? “Central office” actually REFUSED to remove him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is central office won't allow a child to be removed. Even if you have tons of data. Ask me how I know

For a violent kid who has hurt others? B.S.

I'm a special ed lawyer who regularly fights to get violent kids placed in non-general education settings. Absolutely not BS.

+1. Its really hard to get an alternative placement. Even when the parents, the classroom teacher, and the sped teacher all agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is central office won't allow a child to be removed. Even if you have tons of data. Ask me how I know

For a violent kid who has hurt others? B.S.

I'm a special ed lawyer who regularly fights to get violent kids placed in non-general education settings. Absolutely not BS.

PP, I posted the BS comment and I think I may not have been clear, because we are saying the same thing. Yes, central office will fight it so either the parents need to document what is happening and fight back, or they need to hire a lawyer. That is something we were willing to do, but we got the placement agreed to before that was necessary. I meant it is BS that central office won’t remove violent kids - so you need to argue until it is done. They are giving the parents a bunch of BS because they don’t want to pay for a private placement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is central office won't allow a child to be removed. Even if you have tons of data. Ask me how I know

For a violent kid who has hurt others? B.S.

I'm a special ed lawyer who regularly fights to get violent kids placed in non-general education settings. Absolutely not BS.

+1. Its really hard to get an alternative placement. Even when the parents, the classroom teacher, and the sped teacher all agree.

YES it is hard! You can do it, though! Hire a great lawyer or document yourself. It can be done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is central office won't allow a child to be removed. Even if you have tons of data. Ask me how I know

For a violent kid who has hurt others? B.S.

I'm a special ed lawyer who regularly fights to get violent kids placed in non-general education settings. Absolutely not BS.

PP, I posted the BS comment and I think I may not have been clear, because we are saying the same thing. Yes, central office will fight it so either the parents need to document what is happening and fight back, or they need to hire a lawyer. That is something we were willing to do, but we got the placement agreed to before that was necessary. I meant it is BS that central office won’t remove violent kids - so you need to argue until it is done. They are giving the parents a bunch of BS because they don’t want to pay for a private placement.

Ahh, got it. I misunderstood

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is central office won't allow a child to be removed. Even if you have tons of data. Ask me how I know

For a violent kid who has hurt others? B.S.

I'm a special ed lawyer who regularly fights to get violent kids placed in non-general education settings. Absolutely not BS.

PP, I posted the BS comment and I think I may not have been clear, because we are saying the same thing. Yes, central office will fight it so either the parents need to document what is happening and fight back, or they need to hire a lawyer. That is something we were willing to do, but we got the placement agreed to before that was necessary. I meant it is BS that central office won’t remove violent kids - so you need to argue until it is done. They are giving the parents a bunch of BS because they don’t want to pay for a private placement.

Most Newport News families can’t afford to hire a lawyer. Again, “central office” ABSOLUTELY refused to remove the habitually violent student who shot his teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No child left behind REALLY screwed so many kids. It hasn't helped kids avoid being academically left behind. And "least restrictive environment" isn't helpful when the kid is verbally disruptive.

+1 Very rarely will non-teachers admit this. But NCLB/IDEA/FAPE ruined public schools in the US. The Federal Government and Congress like the publicity of “helping everyone” but provided no funding. So then all children suffer.

I’m so sick of people claiming there’s “no funding” or “not enough funding” in our schools. Schools in DC spend literally more than $22k per year per kid, average. Some are obviously a lot more. Schools in Florida spend $9k and that’s still high, relatively speaking. Other Western countries spend WAY less than we do in the US. People need to start acknowledging that if an average of $22k/year isn’t enough to get all students meeting a basic grade level standard then money is NOT the problem and more money is NOT the answer.

They can start by getting all the disruptive kids out of our classrooms and back into special facilities that are equipped (no scissors, yes metal detectors, yes guards) and trained (staff with personal defense training plus deescalation techniques etc plus aides floating around) to handle them.

The problem is the students and the parents. Not the schools. Schools don’t need more money or more anything. They need less of the thing that’s destroying them, which is disruptive students.

I'm from Europe. Part of the reason why I stayed here for good (or until I retire, at least) is that my first child was born with special needs and I knew my home country's education system had nothing for him. NOTHING. Parents of autistic kids in my country often become indigent because they cannot go to work because their kids cannot go to school!!! Please let that sink in. OF COURSE PUBLIC EDUCATION COSTS ARE LOWER WHEN YOU DON'T ACCOMMODATE THE CHILDREN WHO NEED MORE CARE. European public school systems are narrowly focused on the middle range of achievers. There is no gifted education. No special needs education. Teachers are rigid and expect children to adapt to their teaching style. Here in America it's the opposite, where teachers are trained to adapt to children's learning styles. It's a completely different philosophy. If only we could have the best of both worlds: European educational rigor, with American child-centered focus and attention paid to both extremes of development.

Americans do not realize how economically-sound their public school system really is, thanks to IDEA. It allows parents of kids with special needs to place them safely where there is the least likelihood of abuse (institutions and special schools are notorious for that), harbor some hope they will progress and become independent one day, and it allows them to contribute to the economy and maintain a certain level of dignity. I am incredibly grateful for that federal law, its particular implementation in Montgomery County, and our professional ability to get visas to stay here. We pay all of our taxes in the US, thanks to an agreement between my home country and the USA, so we are stakeholders too, despite not being citizens. We pay into the system just like you.

Now does the current system always work? No. I have witnessed massive disruption to classes when one child has behaviors that stop instruction and bother other children. The push for LRE is misguided. I know many parents of kids with special needs WHO DO NOT WANT LEAST RESTRICTIVE EDUCATION. It is applied to the extreme in cases where a child could never hope to gain anything from a mainstream classroom, because it is the least expensive option. I personally know parents who have fought their public school system to place their kids in more restrictive environments, but there are limited in seats and some are very expensive for the County, if they need specialized private schools that the County pays for. Some reasonably well-off parents choose to homeschool instead.

The American philosophy of meeting each child where they are is in my mind the pinnacle of a civilized society. You should be proud of your country in that regard. No other country in the world has pushed as far as the USA to include every child in its public education effort. It has lifted many families out of poverty because they could finally go to work, and it has trained children who might otherwise never had received a degree to be functional and employable. PLEASE FACTOR THIS INTO YOUR FINANCIAL CALCULATIONS.

We just need to tweak it. Surely we can do that.

European pp, you described the situation so well. I wish we could submit your post to the DoE or Congress or whomever might start the process for revisiting LRE.

European pp's post resonates only with parents who are in her shoes, but not with the majority.
How exactly do you suggest going about this?

'European educational rigor, with American child-centered focus and attention paid to both extremes of development'

I propose we cut 5% from the military budget. What do you propose?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

Op here. I do believe in inclusion! But not to this degree. We have kids with severe issues and in many cases they are not getting what they need by being mainstreamed even with an aide. And they are severely disrupting the education of 20-24 of their peers. An example from this week is a severely autistic child was having a screaming outburst and a permanent aide and main classroom teacher were sitting with him, and asking him around, talking and giving him choices, asking if he needed to go out for a walk… Meanwhile 23 kids don’t have a teacher and have missed much of their literacy time. In this case perhaps the kid should be mainstreamed with an aide (I don’t know all the details of his IEP), but during prolonged outbursts I think the aide and student should leave the classroom.

In your example of a kid biting… I mean, realistically at the elementary age kids do sometimes bite and kick and hit. I do think consequences should exist and the incidents should be written up, but suspending a 5 year old for biting a classmate doesn’t seem realistic.

OP, when I first met with the teacher, she very, very, very carefully (did I say carefully?) explained that she had tried to get the disruptive kid with a dx reassigned but the principal did not support her. The way the system works is the public school system must pay for the student’s private placement, so the school administration desperately tries to avoid this. Often they do it by blaming the teacher. Your best bet is that at least one parent observes what is going on and requests a meeting with you. From there, the parents need to document and force the issue. They need to make the case that their kids are being harmed.

They don't just fight private placement, they even fight moving a student from gen ed w/resource services to a self-contained classroom but still part of the public school system.

[Anonymous]

One would suspect the school board wants this tragic state of affairs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No child left behind REALLY screwed so many kids. It hasn't helped kids avoid being academically left behind. And "least restrictive environment" isn't helpful when the kid is verbally disruptive.

+1 Very rarely will non-teachers admit this. But NCLB/IDEA/FAPE ruined public schools in the US. The Federal Government and Congress like the publicity of “helping everyone” but provided no funding. So then all children suffer.

I’m so sick of people claiming there’s “no funding” or “not enough funding” in our schools. Schools in DC spend literally more than $22k per year per kid, average. Some are obviously a lot more. Schools in Florida spend $9k and that’s still high, relatively speaking. Other Western countries spend WAY less than we do in the US. People need to start acknowledging that if an average of $22k/year isn’t enough to get all students meeting a basic grade level standard then money is NOT the problem and more money is NOT the answer.

They can start by getting all the disruptive kids out of our classrooms and back into special facilities that are equipped (no scissors, yes metal detectors, yes guards) and trained (staff with personal defense training plus deescalation techniques etc plus aides floating around) to handle them.

The problem is the students and the parents. Not the schools. Schools don’t need more money or more anything. They need less of the thing that’s destroying them, which is disruptive students.

They need more teachers. And less secretaries, "coaches," administrators, and layers upon layers of useless paper-pushers.

We need less IEPs that REQUIRE classroom teachers to spend HOURS per week documenting.

I'm not sure what district and school you are in, but when I was teaching in Fairfax classroom teachers did not spend hours documenting for IEPs. The special ed teachers did most of that.

+1

Its not the documenting. Its the dealing with the disruptive behaviors, the calling out, inability to stand in a line, stay at their desk, stop talking, work without distracting others, etc. That affects the whole class and is exhausting to monitor as a teacher. I'd rather spend my time helping a student struggling academically.

Wait, now you nuts want to move the chatty and wiggly kids to a special ed program offsite? You’ve gone over the edge.

That’s the thing, right? There are definitely kids who need a different placement, and it’s a shame for everyone that it’s so hard to make that happen. But many many kids can be safely mainstreamed and when people are referring to “disruptive” children lots of this kids are simply calling out too much or needing some additional reminders. But parents of kids who aren’t doing well love to blame other kids- it’s the kid who needs extra reminders to sit still’s fault my kid can’t read! When they probably have no idea how disruptive their own kid is at least some of the time. Kids are also incredibly bad narrators. Some kids really like getting others in trouble. There’s a child like that in my oldest grade. We got a couple calls home over the course of the year always because this child had said my kid did something wrong (not desk throwing, not in that realm) and once I volunteered at the school enough I realized that kid had 3-4 kids they tattled in all.day.long. Not really sure why but it was constant. We told DC to avoid them and no more issues. So who really knows unless you are there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Informal AMA thread. I am already shocked and saddened by the state of public elementary. This is in a wealthy suburb. There’s is a free lunch contingent but test scores are excellent and if you watch morning drop off it’s a lot of luxury vehicles.

I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher. I’ve heard 7 year olds using language I’d feel guilty about even repeating! I’ve watched teacher be kicked and punched and slapped, again by 6 and 7 year olds! And the hot lunches shocked me. The other day I watched one kid eat the following for lunch: giant chocolate chip muffin, chocolate milk, sugary Dannon yogurt, low fat string cheese. This is a “balanced” meal provided by the school.

Maybe I am just out of touch, but I feel many typical parents would be surprised to hear what elementary school is like for their kids.

Nothing here ^ is talking about a wriggly kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What do you mean by causing the classroom to be evacuated? Is the student hurting other people? If so you need to get involved. Others have posted re how to get results - see posts up thread.

When a student becomes violent, or acts out in a way that is dangerously disruptive, like throwing things and flipping desks, the entire rest of the class has to leave. They don't remove the child; they remove everyone else. It's hugely disruptive and upsetting to many kids.