Started working at an elementary school last week. Shocked and sad. AMA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

DP- but it’s not disingenuous. There are standards for inclusion. You don’t know them (full stop. Clear from your post) don’t know the process for removal of a child from gen Ed, and so you don’t know what you are fighting against and certainly don’t have a well thought out alternative.

Clearly not every child who is disruptive fits only certain disabilities. What about the kid with an intellectual disability who has a 1:1 who is placed in a mainstream class who shouts out constantly and gets deregulates and interrupts the class? According to your arbitrary standards is this kid OK but the adhd kid who is disruptive not? If you have a problem with inclusion choose to send your kid private. These children are human being and are not less then. Just different!

Nobody is picking on your ADHD kid, PP. If any kid is constantly disrupting the class, then they are not a good candidate for mainstreaming. Intellectual disability, ADHD, or no diagnosis. It's about their behavior and the impact of their behavior on the classroom, and that's it. Kids and teachers need a safe environment conducive to learning. No child needs to be a perfectly compliant robot, but they also can't be "constantly" disrupting a class.

But don’t you get it? By law they have a right to be put in the least restrictive classroom. I am not saying it is right but that is the law

Student are entitled to LRE. But that does not always mean the gen ed room. LRE does not necessarily equal gen ed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Don’t you think we already refer kids? It takes a very long time for a student to get any additional help at all. Years, in some cases.

Nikolas Cruz was referred to admin for years by teachers. Teachers feared for their lives when they had him in their classroom. Restorative
justice was administered to Nikolas Cruz a number of times over the years. At one point he was approved for transfer to the special school
but his paperwork got lost and he stayed in the regular school district.

Sadly both teachers and students lost their lives in the Parkland school shooting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are there any statistics on how often this is happening in schools? Like is it once per week, or twice per day in every grade? My daughter is in 5th and I never hear anything like this happening. We're in a mid-size, high-SES/UPC public school. FCPS.

I'm a teacher and would love to know this. We are able to submit discipline referrals via our online system but we can't see what happens after that. Administrators do not like to have a high number of referrals so we're actively discouraged from submitting anything unless it's really serious. There's a lot of shaming at some schools and teachers are made to feel inadequate if they continuously refer students, even if it is egregious behavior. I suspect parents would be livid if they realized how often it's happening though.

ES teacher here and I avoid involving administrators for the reasons you mention.

This. Teachers get a "reputation" if they refer students to admin. Also, teachers get the better teaching assignments and better school assignments if they don't have a "reputation."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are there any statistics on how often this is happening in schools? Like is it once per week, or twice per day in every grade? My daughter is in 5th and I never hear anything like this happening. We're in a mid-size, high-SES/UPC public school. FCPS.

I'm a teacher and would love to know this. We are able to submit discipline referrals via our online system but we can't see what happens after that. Administrators do not like to have a high number of referrals so we're actively discouraged from submitting anything unless it's really serious. There's a lot of shaming at some schools and teachers are made to feel inadequate if they continuously refer students, even if it is egregious behavior. I suspect parents would be livid if they realized how often it's happening though.

ES teacher here and I avoid involving administrators for the reasons you mention.

This. Teachers get a "reputation" if they refer students to admin. Also, teachers get the better teaching assignments and better school assignments if they don't have a "reputation."

This really sucks. The public is the real employer of teachers, not the school admin. The school admin is only required to handle paperwork.

Teachers need to start bypassing admin somehow and reaching parents directly with their concerns and decisions. Perhaps anonymously through the media but ideally through lobbying government for the support that they need. Isn’t this what teachers unions should be doing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are there any statistics on how often this is happening in schools? Like is it once per week, or twice per day in every grade? My daughter is in 5th and I never hear anything like this happening. We're in a mid-size, high-SES/UPC public school. FCPS.

I'm a teacher and would love to know this. We are able to submit discipline referrals via our online system but we can't see what happens after that. Administrators do not like to have a high number of referrals so we're actively discouraged from submitting anything unless it's really serious. There's a lot of shaming at some schools and teachers are made to feel inadequate if they continuously refer students, even if it is egregious behavior. I suspect parents would be livid if they realized how often it's happening though.

ES teacher here and I avoid involving administrators for the reasons you mention.

This. Teachers get a "reputation" if they refer students to admin. Also, teachers get the better teaching assignments and better school assignments if they don't have a "reputation."

This really sucks. The public is the real employer of teachers, not the school admin. The school admin is only required to handle paperwork.

Teachers need to start bypassing admin somehow and reaching parents directly with their concerns and decisions. Perhaps anonymously through the media but ideally through lobbying government for the support that they need. Isn’t this what teachers unions should be doing?

I don't think you understand how low the teacher is on the totem pole. We are literally forbidden to speak about anything negative to anyone outside of the school. It's in the contract and you can be fired for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yea, this is why I spend a small fortune for my kids to go to a private school wtih classroom sizes no larger than 12 kids of which NONE are special needs or emotionally disturbed. Its all about having them in a peaceful learning environment and not having to be subjecte to kids who really should be in a contained classroom.

Inclusion classrooms are disrubtive.

Exhibit A of the intolerance and bigotry against all SN kids. Not just behavior issues, she said it directly here. Special needs.

To PP, shame on you.

DP.

“Your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins.”

We don’t have to de okay with SN accommodations having a negative affect on other children. Of that is what happens every day, and we are allowed to balk. If that offends you, IDGAF.

You're all very brave behind your anonymous posts. Bravo, warrior.

I know you’re getting angry that you can’t bully people anymore into agreeing with you or at least pretending to, but you will just need to deal with that loss of power because voting in this country is also anonymous. Most parents of school children have started to see what goes on in schools in this country, and we want things to change. You can stamp your feet all you want but you can’t bully people into voting the way you want.

Are you on the wrong thread? Nobody is voting children off the island.

I presume that not one of you would stand up in public, say at a PTA meeting, and say out loud that you don't want SN kids in your school. Not behavior issues, SN.

But I could be wrong. Most of you are probably just as awful IRL.

DP. No, we are going to vote for candidates who will change the existing laws and their application. Let’s actually have some enforcement of the “A” in FAPE. If you’re in the room repeatedly screaming, threatening and throwing things and causing the rest of the class not to learn, clearly you are not succeeding, your placement is not appropriate and needs to be changed.

Or how about we make a law that ALL children are entitled to FAPE, including a classroom where they can hear the teacher and be physically safe. Let’s do that.

+1 million. NO child is more important than another. Every child deserves FAPE, every child's parents are paying taxes for it, and it's absurd to provide it only for those that have certain extra needs.
What a bizarre twist of logic that it's now only deemed important for a select few, and at the EXPENSE of everyone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are there any statistics on how often this is happening in schools? Like is it once per week, or twice per day in every grade? My daughter is in 5th and I never hear anything like this happening. We're in a mid-size, high-SES/UPC public school. FCPS.

I'm a teacher and would love to know this. We are able to submit discipline referrals via our online system but we can't see what happens after that. Administrators do not like to have a high number of referrals so we're actively discouraged from submitting anything unless it's really serious. There's a lot of shaming at some schools and teachers are made to feel inadequate if they continuously refer students, even if it is egregious behavior. I suspect parents would be livid if they realized how often it's happening though.

ES teacher here and I avoid involving administrators for the reasons you mention.

This. Teachers get a "reputation" if they refer students to admin. Also, teachers get the better teaching assignments and better school assignments if they don't have a "reputation."

This really sucks. The public is the real employer of teachers, not the school admin. The school admin is only required to handle paperwork.

Teachers need to start bypassing admin somehow and reaching parents directly with their concerns and decisions. Perhaps anonymously through the media but ideally through lobbying government for the support that they need. Isn’t this what teachers unions should be doing?

I don't think you understand how low the teacher is on the totem pole. We are literally forbidden to speak about anything negative to anyone outside of the school. It's in the contract and you can be fired for it.

You could stay anonymous. The media will publish reports even without names. Especially if there are a few teachers corroborating each other’s stories.

[Anonymous]

Teachers ARE talking about these issues. Just search “teachers quitting violence” and you’ll get pages of results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Teachers ARE talking about these issues. Just search “teachers quitting violence” and you’ll get pages of results.

Well it seems like those complaints are getting lost in the noise. I just read an article from CNN about teacher shortage and they listed several things but made it seem like the biggest issues were low salary and “ grappling with culture wars over what they can and cannot teach in the classroom”.

If you want violent and disruptive kids to be seen as the big issue that should be addressed immediately then you need to make that clear to the media.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are there any statistics on how often this is happening in schools? Like is it once per week, or twice per day in every grade? My daughter is in 5th and I never hear anything like this happening. We're in a mid-size, high-SES/UPC public school. FCPS.

Or, like me as a smart, quiet daughter, you just don’t say anything about it because mom won’t believe you/doesn’t care OR you’re too traumatized by dangerous, perverted male classmates that you can’t muster up the courage to tell mom because these boys won’t get punished anyway. Please excuse the projection, I’m sure your relationship with your daughter is strong. Just a vent.

Laws like NCLB and discipline reform policies were made by people who never attended public schools (look @ Bush family, Obama family) and are perpetuated by the same (Biden family)
They and their children & grandchildren are insulated in privates

Technically the Bush girls did attend public, but it was during high school when these kind of disruptions are less of an issue

I don't know I'm hearing some intense stories from high school teachers and behaviors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

DP- but it’s not disingenuous. There are standards for inclusion. You don’t know them (full stop. Clear from your post) don’t know the process for removal of a child from gen Ed, and so you don’t know what you are fighting against and certainly don’t have a well thought out alternative.

Clearly not every child who is disruptive fits only certain disabilities. What about the kid with an intellectual disability who has a 1:1 who is placed in a mainstream class who shouts out constantly and gets deregulates and interrupts the class? According to your arbitrary standards is this kid OK but the adhd kid who is disruptive not? If you have a problem with inclusion choose to send your kid private. These children are human being and are not less then. Just different!

Nobody is picking on your ADHD kid, PP. If any kid is constantly disrupting the class, then they are not a good candidate for mainstreaming. Intellectual disability, ADHD, or no diagnosis. It's about their behavior and the impact of their behavior on the classroom, and that's it. Kids and teachers need a safe environment conducive to learning. No child needs to be a perfectly compliant robot, but they also can't be "constantly" disrupting a class.

But don’t you get it? By law they have a right to be put in the least restrictive classroom. I am not saying it is right but that is the law

Student are entitled to LRE. But that does not always mean the gen ed room. LRE does not necessarily equal gen ed.

+1 to this!!
This is the conversation that no one truly wants to have at an IEP because schools don't want to argue or stand up to parents. There are a lot of parents who refuse to hear of anything else but inclusion. Sadly this is a disservice to their child and all the other children/teachers involved. And no I'm not talking about learning disabilities and/or students with ADHD. I'm talking about students who are disruptive and/or unsafe in the general ed classroom.
~SPED teacher who is tired~

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

DP- but it’s not disingenuous. There are standards for inclusion. You don’t know them (full stop. Clear from your post) don’t know the process for removal of a child from gen Ed, and so you don’t know what you are fighting against and certainly don’t have a well thought out alternative.

Clearly not every child who is disruptive fits only certain disabilities. What about the kid with an intellectual disability who has a 1:1 who is placed in a mainstream class who shouts out constantly and gets deregulates and interrupts the class? According to your arbitrary standards is this kid OK but the adhd kid who is disruptive not? If you have a problem with inclusion choose to send your kid private. These children are human being and are not less then. Just different!

Nobody is picking on your ADHD kid, PP. If any kid is constantly disrupting the class, then they are not a good candidate for mainstreaming. Intellectual disability, ADHD, or no diagnosis. It's about their behavior and the impact of their behavior on the classroom, and that's it. Kids and teachers need a safe environment conducive to learning. No child needs to be a perfectly compliant robot, but they also can't be "constantly" disrupting a class.

But don’t you get it? By law they have a right to be put in the least restrictive classroom. I am not saying it is right but that is the law

Least Restrictive environment differs based on the student and the level of support needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers ARE talking about these issues. Just search “teachers quitting violence” and you’ll get pages of results.

Well it seems like those complaints are getting lost in the noise. I just read an article from CNN about teacher shortage and they listed several things but made it seem like the biggest issues were low salary and “ grappling with culture wars over what they can and cannot teach in the classroom”.

If you want violent and disruptive kids to be seen as the big issue that should be addressed immediately then you need to make that clear to the media.

WE don't have the time or the energy. Heres an idea how about the parents who want to kick and scream about "grooming" go to the media with actual true complaints that their child is in an unsafe environment that is not conducive to learning. Maybe parents could do that for us. Go make some noise about things actually happening. We are all tired of the stupidity and time wasted debating CRT. Teachers-especially SPED teacher are leaving in high numbers and this will continue due to a lack of support with behaviors and other ridiculous working conditions. Parents go complain about something real-THIS is it. Teachers are quitting-colleges are seeing a noticeable decline in students applying for their education programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers ARE talking about these issues. Just search “teachers quitting violence” and you’ll get pages of results.

Well it seems like those complaints are getting lost in the noise. I just read an article from CNN about teacher shortage and they listed several things but made it seem like the biggest issues were low salary and “ grappling with culture wars over what they can and cannot teach in the classroom”.

If you want violent and disruptive kids to be seen as the big issue that should be addressed immediately then you need to make that clear to the media.

They are ALL major issues. If you’re in Manatee County, FL right now, censorship of classroom libraries might be your biggest concern. If you’re in Kentucky, it might be teacher pay. If you’re in a class with a violent student, that’s the issue. The fact that teachers deal with all these and more means they give up and leave the profession instead of dedicating their nights to trying to solve the problem at a state or federal level when they are not policymakers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers ARE talking about these issues. Just search “teachers quitting violence” and you’ll get pages of results.

Well it seems like those complaints are getting lost in the noise. I just read an article from CNN about teacher shortage and they listed several things but made it seem like the biggest issues were low salary and “ grappling with culture wars over what they can and cannot teach in the classroom”.

If you want violent and disruptive kids to be seen as the big issue that should be addressed immediately then you need to make that clear to the media.

They are ALL major issues. If you’re in Manatee County, FL right now, censorship of classroom libraries might be your biggest concern. If you’re in Kentucky, it might be teacher pay. If you’re in a class with a violent student, that’s the issue. The fact that teachers deal with all these and more means they give up and leave the profession instead of dedicating their nights to trying to solve the problem at a state or federal level when they are not policymakers.

Well per the abc news article I just read, Florida is one of only 3 states that do not have a state wide teacher shortage at the moment. So maybe the library banning thing isn’t as big an issue as you seem to think.

Your comment is exactly the type of message thats making it hard for change to happen. Everyone needs to rally behind teachers about the real problem - safety and order in the classrooms. Once we have that, we can argue about the politics and other less important stuff.