What’s wrong with William & Mary?

[Anonymous]

Good post re: context of gender imbalance. It’s less striking in the actual enrolled class but quite pronounced in terms of gender balance of applicants: 62/38 f/m.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:It seems to me that it doesn’t really have a bright future as a public school. In a time of increased popularity for many Virginia public universities, William & Mary seems to be caught in a downward spiral. Its application numbers are stagnant, its female-male ratio is ridiculous, its acceptance rate has increased to almost 40 percent, its yield rate is terrible, it’s poorly positioned in terms of tech growth, it’s very expensive, and it’s now looking to increase (?) enrollment because it needs the bucks. Discouraging my kid from applying. Is it time for the school to consider becoming a private college or to affiliate with Tech or something?

UNC and Emory have the same gender balance.

For 2018 entering class, UVA was 57% female, VCU 64%, JMU 59%, Longwood 69%, CNU 56%, MWU 66%, Radford 59%, ODU 53%. Only male majority were VT at 55% male and VMI at 83% male. GMU was 50/50. UNC-CH was 59% female. National is close to 58 percent.

+1. My son is applying to WM and SLACs. I told him to enjoy the one time in his life that he will Ben’s for from affirmative action. His sister works harder and has better grades. Should have equivalent test scores. And will have a harder time in college admissions because she isn’t looking at hardcore STEM.



College admissions is where you really see the results of girls having earlier prefrontal cortex development and better executive functioning.

And the feminization of the American education system. We have had 'girl' programs for the past 20 years while the boys continue to fall behind.

W&M alum here, and though it's un-PC to say, I think the above is contributing to W&M's "decline," as PPs are calling it. There are more girls interested in W&M than boys, making it EXTREMELY competitive, especially for OOS girl applicants. Boys definitely get a huge bump in admissions (I think 50% of guys get in ED, IIRC), but the vast majority don't end up matriculating. So you have the gender imbalance to start, plus a lack of sports teams (football games were mainly attended by townies and families with small kids; very few students) and that ends up affecting the courses offered, student programming, etc. Don't get me wrong, W&M is a great place, but it's not attracting boys in droves (which made a lot of girls who came to campus for their MRS degree rather unhappy!).

Yep. No sports and no engineering school makes W&M less attractive to boys.

W&M has sports. It has sent many football players to the NFL. And there’s Coach Tomlin and Coach McDermott. And the best assistant coach in college football at LSU. Are you that dumb?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M could be attracting more applications, but stats of enrolled students continue to go up, completion rates are among the highest of all public universities, alumni giving rate is the highest of all public national universities, student loan default rate has been either the lowest or next to lowest of all public universities over time.

The gender balance keeps getting cited, but it should be kept in context. It is not really out of line with other colleges in Virginia or Nationally (57% female). Here is percent female at a number of schools (Fall 2018 enrolled):

Longwood 69%
MWU 66%
VCU 64%
Radford 64%
UNC-Chapel Hill 62%
JMU 59%
W&M 59%
UVA 57%
W&L 57%
United States 57%
State of Virginia 56%
CNU 56%
ODU 53%
Richmond 51%
GMU 50%
Virginia Tech 45%
VMI 17%

+1. There's nothing wrong with W&M. OP's kid just didn't get in ED 1.

You’re just wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems to me that it doesn’t really have a bright future as a public school. In a time of increased popularity for many Virginia public universities, William & Mary seems to be caught in a downward spiral. Its application numbers are stagnant, its female-male ratio is ridiculous, its acceptance rate has increased to almost 40 percent, its yield rate is terrible, it’s poorly positioned in terms of tech growth, it’s very expensive, and it’s now looking to increase (?) enrollment because it needs the bucks. Discouraging my kid from applying. Is it time for the school to consider becoming a private college or to affiliate with Tech or something?

UNC and Emory have the same gender balance.

For 2018 entering class, UVA was 57% female, VCU 64%, JMU 59%, Longwood 69%, CNU 56%, MWU 66%, Radford 59%, ODU 53%. Only male majority were VT at 55% male and VMI at 83% male. GMU was 50/50. UNC-CH was 59% female. National is close to 58 percent.

+1. My son is applying to WM and SLACs. I told him to enjoy the one time in his life that he will Ben’s for from affirmative action. His sister works harder and has better grades. Should have equivalent test scores. And will have a harder time in college admissions because she isn’t looking at hardcore STEM.



College admissions is where you really see the results of girls having earlier prefrontal cortex development and better executive functioning.

And the feminization of the American education system. We have had 'girl' programs for the past 20 years while the boys continue to fall behind.

W&M alum here, and though it's un-PC to say, I think the above is contributing to W&M's "decline," as PPs are calling it. There are more girls interested in W&M than boys, making it EXTREMELY competitive, especially for OOS girl applicants. Boys definitely get a huge bump in admissions (I think 50% of guys get in ED, IIRC), but the vast majority don't end up matriculating. So you have the gender imbalance to start, plus a lack of sports teams (football games were mainly attended by townies and families with small kids; very few students) and that ends up affecting the courses offered, student programming, etc. Don't get me wrong, W&M is a great place, but it's not attracting boys in droves (which made a lot of girls who came to campus for their MRS degree rather unhappy!).

Yep. No sports and no engineering school makes W&M less attractive to boys.

W&M has sports. It has sent many football players to the NFL. And there’s Coach Tomlin and Coach McDermott. And the best assistant coach in college football at LSU. Are you that dumb?

Are you that dumb that you missed the context? W&M doesn't have big-time sports. The type of sports that generate and fuel school spirit and bring a college community together. Avg. attendance for W&M football is 9,000 vs. 60,000 for VA Tech. JMU averages 21,000.

[Anonymous]

Hold it - college is all about sports and going to football games?!?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hold it - college is all about sports and going to football games?!?

Of course, that's why Harvard and Yale invest so much into their football teams! Oh wait...

No. But a PP was suggesting that lack of major sports could be a factor in male interest and attendance at W&M. And that is certainly possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hold it - college is all about sports and going to football games?!?

Of course, that's why Harvard and Yale invest so much into their football teams! Oh wait...

No. But a PP was suggesting that lack of major sports could be a factor in male interest and attendance at W&M. And that is certainly possible.

You jest, yet both Harvard and Yale aggressively recruit for their sports teams. Yes, really.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hold it - college is all about sports and going to football games?!?

Of course, that's why Harvard and Yale invest so much into their football teams! Oh wait...

No. But a PP was suggesting that lack of major sports could be a factor in male interest and attendance at W&M. And that is certainly possible.

You jest, yet both Harvard and Yale aggressively recruit for their sports teams. Yes, really.

Perhaps, but they aren't going to be admitting most of the kids that play at Big 5 and other conferences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems to me that it doesn’t really have a bright future as a public school. In a time of increased popularity for many Virginia public universities, William & Mary seems to be caught in a downward spiral. Its application numbers are stagnant, its female-male ratio is ridiculous, its acceptance rate has increased to almost 40 percent, its yield rate is terrible, it’s poorly positioned in terms of tech growth, it’s very expensive, and it’s now looking to increase (?) enrollment because it needs the bucks. Discouraging my kid from applying. Is it time for the school to consider becoming a private college or to affiliate with Tech or something?

UNC and Emory have the same gender balance.

For 2018 entering class, UVA was 57% female, VCU 64%, JMU 59%, Longwood 69%, CNU 56%, MWU 66%, Radford 59%, ODU 53%. Only male majority were VT at 55% male and VMI at 83% male. GMU was 50/50. UNC-CH was 59% female. National is close to 58 percent.

+1. My son is applying to WM and SLACs. I told him to enjoy the one time in his life that he will Ben’s for from affirmative action. His sister works harder and has better grades. Should have equivalent test scores. And will have a harder time in college admissions because she isn’t looking at hardcore STEM.



College admissions is where you really see the results of girls having earlier prefrontal cortex development and better executive functioning.

And the feminization of the American education system. We have had 'girl' programs for the past 20 years while the boys continue to fall behind.

W&M alum here, and though it's un-PC to say, I think the above is contributing to W&M's "decline," as PPs are calling it. There are more girls interested in W&M than boys, making it EXTREMELY competitive, especially for OOS girl applicants. Boys definitely get a huge bump in admissions (I think 50% of guys get in ED, IIRC), but the vast majority don't end up matriculating. So you have the gender imbalance to start, plus a lack of sports teams (football games were mainly attended by townies and families with small kids; very few students) and that ends up affecting the courses offered, student programming, etc. Don't get me wrong, W&M is a great place, but it's not attracting boys in droves (which made a lot of girls who came to campus for their MRS degree rather unhappy!).

Yep. No sports and no engineering school makes W&M less attractive to boys.

W&M has sports. It has sent many football players to the NFL. And there’s Coach Tomlin and Coach McDermott. And the best assistant coach in college football at LSU. Are you that dumb?

Are you that dumb that you missed the context? W&M doesn't have big-time sports. The type of sports that generate and fuel school spirit and bring a college community together. Avg. attendance for W&M football is 9,000 vs. 60,000 for VA Tech. JMU averages 21,000.

New poster. I get the context, but W&M has 8,500 students, JMU 23,000, Virginia Tech 34,000. W&M is in the FCS not going to move to the BCS at this point. JMU might try to move from FCS to BCS if it can find a conference, but even if it does, it won't land in a good spot. The Power 5 is pretty much locked. As is, I believe JMU loses more money on athletics (that has to be made up with student fees) than any other university in the U.S.

Is school spirit really dependent on football? Here is what the Ivy League averaged in attendance for 2018: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Ivy_League_football_season#Attendance Entire conference averaged a little over 7K per game with 21% stadium capacity. I don't think the Ivy League lacks school spirit. It is a different type of school than say Alabama, but I wouldn't say there is more Alabama school spirit than any of these schools.

As it is, I think a higher percentage of W&M alumni contribute back to the school than any others in Virginia other than W&L and VMI. (I don't think they have big sports either.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems to me that it doesn’t really have a bright future as a public school. In a time of increased popularity for many Virginia public universities, William & Mary seems to be caught in a downward spiral. Its application numbers are stagnant, its female-male ratio is ridiculous, its acceptance rate has increased to almost 40 percent, its yield rate is terrible, it’s poorly positioned in terms of tech growth, it’s very expensive, and it’s now looking to increase (?) enrollment because it needs the bucks. Discouraging my kid from applying. Is it time for the school to consider becoming a private college or to affiliate with Tech or something?

UNC and Emory have the same gender balance.

For 2018 entering class, UVA was 57% female, VCU 64%, JMU 59%, Longwood 69%, CNU 56%, MWU 66%, Radford 59%, ODU 53%. Only male majority were VT at 55% male and VMI at 83% male. GMU was 50/50. UNC-CH was 59% female. National is close to 58 percent.

+1. My son is applying to WM and SLACs. I told him to enjoy the one time in his life that he will Ben’s for from affirmative action. His sister works harder and has better grades. Should have equivalent test scores. And will have a harder time in college admissions because she isn’t looking at hardcore STEM.



College admissions is where you really see the results of girls having earlier prefrontal cortex development and better executive functioning.

And the feminization of the American education system. We have had 'girl' programs for the past 20 years while the boys continue to fall behind.

W&M alum here, and though it's un-PC to say, I think the above is contributing to W&M's "decline," as PPs are calling it. There are more girls interested in W&M than boys, making it EXTREMELY competitive, especially for OOS girl applicants. Boys definitely get a huge bump in admissions (I think 50% of guys get in ED, IIRC), but the vast majority don't end up matriculating. So you have the gender imbalance to start, plus a lack of sports teams (football games were mainly attended by townies and families with small kids; very few students) and that ends up affecting the courses offered, student programming, etc. Don't get me wrong, W&M is a great place, but it's not attracting boys in droves (which made a lot of girls who came to campus for their MRS degree rather unhappy!).

Yep. No sports and no engineering school makes W&M less attractive to boys.

W&M has sports. It has sent many football players to the NFL. And there’s Coach Tomlin and Coach McDermott. And the best assistant coach in college football at LSU. Are you that dumb?

Are you that dumb that you missed the context? W&M doesn't have big-time sports. The type of sports that generate and fuel school spirit and bring a college community together. Avg. attendance for W&M football is 9,000 vs. 60,000 for VA Tech. JMU averages 21,000.

New poster. I get the context, but W&M has 8,500 students, JMU 23,000, Virginia Tech 34,000. W&M is in the FCS not going to move to the BCS at this point. JMU might try to move from FCS to BCS if it can find a conference, but even if it does, it won't land in a good spot. The Power 5 is pretty much locked. As is, I believe JMU loses more money on athletics (that has to be made up with student fees) than any other university in the U.S.

Is school spirit really dependent on football? Here is what the Ivy League averaged in attendance for 2018: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Ivy_League_football_season#Attendance Entire conference averaged a little over 7K per game with 21% stadium capacity. I don't think the Ivy League lacks school spirit. It is a different type of school than say Alabama, but I wouldn't say there is more Alabama school spirit than any of these schools.

As it is, I think a higher percentage of W&M alumni contribute back to the school than any others in Virginia other than W&L and VMI. (I don't think they have big sports either.)

W&M has had a good season so far in basketball (men's and women's basketball). The men are currently leading the Colonial Athletic Conference. Still, if you want "big time" sports during your undergrad years, you'll need to go to VT or UVA (and I'm not sure either of those matches football game day at say Michigan).

[Anonymous]

^^You’re “not sure”??? Pffft. That’s a joke. You’ve clearly never been to a Michigan or Ohio State game. Not remotely the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^You’re “not sure”??? Pffft. That’s a joke. You’ve clearly never been to a Michigan or Ohio State game. Not remotely the same.

Ever heard of understatement?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems to me that it doesn’t really have a bright future as a public school. In a time of increased popularity for many Virginia public universities, William & Mary seems to be caught in a downward spiral. Its application numbers are stagnant, its female-male ratio is ridiculous, its acceptance rate has increased to almost 40 percent, its yield rate is terrible, it’s poorly positioned in terms of tech growth, it’s very expensive, and it’s now looking to increase (?) enrollment because it needs the bucks. Discouraging my kid from applying. Is it time for the school to consider becoming a private college or to affiliate with Tech or something?

UNC and Emory have the same gender balance.

For 2018 entering class, UVA was 57% female, VCU 64%, JMU 59%, Longwood 69%, CNU 56%, MWU 66%, Radford 59%, ODU 53%. Only male majority were VT at 55% male and VMI at 83% male. GMU was 50/50. UNC-CH was 59% female. National is close to 58 percent.

+1. My son is applying to WM and SLACs. I told him to enjoy the one time in his life that he will Ben’s for from affirmative action. His sister works harder and has better grades. Should have equivalent test scores. And will have a harder time in college admissions because she isn’t looking at hardcore STEM.



College admissions is where you really see the results of girls having earlier prefrontal cortex development and better executive functioning.

And the feminization of the American education system. We have had 'girl' programs for the past 20 years while the boys continue to fall behind.

W&M alum here, and though it's un-PC to say, I think the above is contributing to W&M's "decline," as PPs are calling it. There are more girls interested in W&M than boys, making it EXTREMELY competitive, especially for OOS girl applicants. Boys definitely get a huge bump in admissions (I think 50% of guys get in ED, IIRC), but the vast majority don't end up matriculating. So you have the gender imbalance to start, plus a lack of sports teams (football games were mainly attended by townies and families with small kids; very few students) and that ends up affecting the courses offered, student programming, etc. Don't get me wrong, W&M is a great place, but it's not attracting boys in droves (which made a lot of girls who came to campus for their MRS degree rather unhappy!).

Yep. No sports and no engineering school makes W&M less attractive to boys.

W&M has sports. It has sent many football players to the NFL. And there’s Coach Tomlin and Coach McDermott. And the best assistant coach in college football at LSU. Are you that dumb?

Are you that dumb that you missed the context? W&M doesn't have big-time sports. The type of sports that generate and fuel school spirit and bring a college community together. Avg. attendance for W&M football is 9,000 vs. 60,000 for VA Tech. JMU averages 21,000.

But W&M only has 6000 students. It's a liberal arts college atmosphere, not a bi-directional or big state U. W&M has a very cohesive college community.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems to me that it doesn’t really have a bright future as a public school. In a time of increased popularity for many Virginia public universities, William & Mary seems to be caught in a downward spiral. Its application numbers are stagnant, its female-male ratio is ridiculous, its acceptance rate has increased to almost 40 percent, its yield rate is terrible, it’s poorly positioned in terms of tech growth, it’s very expensive, and it’s now looking to increase (?) enrollment because it needs the bucks. Discouraging my kid from applying. Is it time for the school to consider becoming a private college or to affiliate with Tech or something?

UNC and Emory have the same gender balance.

For 2018 entering class, UVA was 57% female, VCU 64%, JMU 59%, Longwood 69%, CNU 56%, MWU 66%, Radford 59%, ODU 53%. Only male majority were VT at 55% male and VMI at 83% male. GMU was 50/50. UNC-CH was 59% female. National is close to 58 percent.

+1. My son is applying to WM and SLACs. I told him to enjoy the one time in his life that he will Ben’s for from affirmative action. His sister works harder and has better grades. Should have equivalent test scores. And will have a harder time in college admissions because she isn’t looking at hardcore STEM.



College admissions is where you really see the results of girls having earlier prefrontal cortex development and better executive functioning.

And the feminization of the American education system. We have had 'girl' programs for the past 20 years while the boys continue to fall behind.

W&M alum here, and though it's un-PC to say, I think the above is contributing to W&M's "decline," as PPs are calling it. There are more girls interested in W&M than boys, making it EXTREMELY competitive, especially for OOS girl applicants. Boys definitely get a huge bump in admissions (I think 50% of guys get in ED, IIRC), but the vast majority don't end up matriculating. So you have the gender imbalance to start, plus a lack of sports teams (football games were mainly attended by townies and families with small kids; very few students) and that ends up affecting the courses offered, student programming, etc. Don't get me wrong, W&M is a great place, but it's not attracting boys in droves (which made a lot of girls who came to campus for their MRS degree rather unhappy!).

Yep. No sports and no engineering school makes W&M less attractive to boys.

W&M has sports. It has sent many football players to the NFL. And there’s Coach Tomlin and Coach McDermott. And the best assistant coach in college football at LSU. Are you that dumb?

Are you that dumb that you missed the context? W&M doesn't have big-time sports. The type of sports that generate and fuel school spirit and bring a college community together. Avg. attendance for W&M football is 9,000 vs. 60,000 for VA Tech. JMU averages 21,000.

But W&M only has 6000 students. It's a liberal arts college atmosphere, not a bi-directional or big state U. W&M has a very cohesive college community.

Wake Forest has 6,400 students and Duke has 6,600. Don't have to be big state U to have major sports. Sports provide a big part of the experience at both of those higher ranked schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems to me that it doesn’t really have a bright future as a public school. In a time of increased popularity for many Virginia public universities, William & Mary seems to be caught in a downward spiral. Its application numbers are stagnant, its female-male ratio is ridiculous, its acceptance rate has increased to almost 40 percent, its yield rate is terrible, it’s poorly positioned in terms of tech growth, it’s very expensive, and it’s now looking to increase (?) enrollment because it needs the bucks. Discouraging my kid from applying. Is it time for the school to consider becoming a private college or to affiliate with Tech or something?

UNC and Emory have the same gender balance.

For 2018 entering class, UVA was 57% female, VCU 64%, JMU 59%, Longwood 69%, CNU 56%, MWU 66%, Radford 59%, ODU 53%. Only male majority were VT at 55% male and VMI at 83% male. GMU was 50/50. UNC-CH was 59% female. National is close to 58 percent.

+1. My son is applying to WM and SLACs. I told him to enjoy the one time in his life that he will Ben’s for from affirmative action. His sister works harder and has better grades. Should have equivalent test scores. And will have a harder time in college admissions because she isn’t looking at hardcore STEM.



College admissions is where you really see the results of girls having earlier prefrontal cortex development and better executive functioning.

And the feminization of the American education system. We have had 'girl' programs for the past 20 years while the boys continue to fall behind.

W&M alum here, and though it's un-PC to say, I think the above is contributing to W&M's "decline," as PPs are calling it. There are more girls interested in W&M than boys, making it EXTREMELY competitive, especially for OOS girl applicants. Boys definitely get a huge bump in admissions (I think 50% of guys get in ED, IIRC), but the vast majority don't end up matriculating. So you have the gender imbalance to start, plus a lack of sports teams (football games were mainly attended by townies and families with small kids; very few students) and that ends up affecting the courses offered, student programming, etc. Don't get me wrong, W&M is a great place, but it's not attracting boys in droves (which made a lot of girls who came to campus for their MRS degree rather unhappy!).

Yep. No sports and no engineering school makes W&M less attractive to boys.

W&M has sports. It has sent many football players to the NFL. And there’s Coach Tomlin and Coach McDermott. And the best assistant coach in college football at LSU. Are you that dumb?

Are you that dumb that you missed the context? W&M doesn't have big-time sports. The type of sports that generate and fuel school spirit and bring a college community together. Avg. attendance for W&M football is 9,000 vs. 60,000 for VA Tech. JMU averages 21,000.

But W&M only has 6000 students. It's a liberal arts college atmosphere, not a bi-directional or big state U. W&M has a very cohesive college community.

Wake Forest has 6,400 students and Duke has 6,600. Don't have to be big state U to have major sports. Sports provide a big part of the experience at both of those higher ranked schools.

But they are in the ACC, a "Power 5" conference with the biggest TV contracts. W&M is not going to be joining a Power 5 conference.