What’s wrong with William & Mary?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP The thrust of this thread is why many students, primarily male, prefer UVA, Virginia Tech and even JMU to W&M.

Reason is, top-tier recruiting is not as good.

While you are correct that not many students go to the top firms, thats the point of being top firms. Usually, only the top 10-20% of the class at a top public has the change to get into a firm like McKinsey or Goldman. But thats a huge number of students - 3000 UVA students that can get in for internships and jobs, half the size of W&M's undergrad population.

For tech, its more about skill than grades, so the door is wider. But if the company doesn't even recruit from your college/come to your job fair, it gets a lot harder to get noticed filling out job/internship applications online.

Also, all the investment/consulting firms that I listed recruit at Notre Dame. That's why I don't put much onto rankings. The education might be better at W&M Business, but the top firms at Notre Dame are better.

Your college is either or a target school where the firm recruits from, or its not. If its not, you need a hell lot of networking, often through parents, to get in, especially in finance/consulting.

So yes you can get a good job and good education. But the students that get into W&M, UVA, Virginia Tech are go-getters - they want the top jobs. They can get a good job from any of the schools, but they will have a much harder time getting a top job from W&M due to lack of recruiting/not being a target school.

If you are still on business, where is there any evidence Virginia Tech (Pamplin) or JMU have better recruiting firms than William & Mary?

Total first year pay for William & Mary in 2018 was $71,276. JMU was $60,232. Pamplin not on the list.

[Anonymous]

PP my post is specifically about firms recruiting at UVA and not W&M for business, and firms recruiting at both UVA and Virginia Tech but not W&M for tech industry

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP The thrust of this thread is why many students, primarily male, prefer UVA, Virginia Tech and even JMU to W&M.

Reason is, top-tier recruiting is not as good.

While you are correct that not many students go to the top firms, thats the point of being top firms. Usually, only the top 10-20% of the class at a top public has the change to get into a firm like McKinsey or Goldman. But thats a huge number of students - 3000 UVA students that can get in for internships and jobs, half the size of W&M's undergrad population.

For tech, its more about skill than grades, so the door is wider. But if the company doesn't even recruit from your college/come to your job fair, it gets a lot harder to get noticed filling out job/internship applications online.

Also, all the investment/consulting firms that I listed recruit at Notre Dame. That's why I don't put much onto rankings. The education might be better at W&M Business, but the top firms at Notre Dame are better.

Your college is either or a target school where the firm recruits from, or its not. If its not, you need a hell lot of networking, often through parents, to get in, especially in finance/consulting.

So yes you can get a good job and good education. But the students that get into W&M, UVA, Virginia Tech are go-getters - they want the top jobs. They can get a good job from any of the schools, but they will have a much harder time getting a top job from W&M due to lack of recruiting/not being a target school.

You're nuts. Generally only the top at McIntire would have a shot. McIntire has maybe 700 undergraduates.

They recruit top Economics majors for the same positions.

Regardless, if only the top 10-20% of UVA have a shot despite the recruiters coming to campus, doing campus interviews and UVA being a "target" university, what does that say about the chance of W&M students where the firms don't come to campus, don't do campus interviews and W&M is not a "target" university?

Regardless these are only a small portion of jobs. It's only an illustration of the top firms that recruit at UVA (and Ivies/top privates/top publics) but don't at W&M. As I said, plenty chance to get a great job. But some students specifically want these high prestige, high pay (and high work-hours and stress) jobs, and they have a better chance at getting them from UVA McIntire than W&M Mason, currently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP The thrust of this thread is why many students, primarily male, prefer UVA, Virginia Tech and even JMU to W&M.

Reason is, top-tier recruiting is not as good.

While you are correct that not many students go to the top firms, thats the point of being top firms. Usually, only the top 10-20% of the class at a top public has the change to get into a firm like McKinsey or Goldman. But thats a huge number of students - 3000 UVA students that can get in for internships and jobs, half the size of W&M's undergrad population.

For tech, its more about skill than grades, so the door is wider. But if the company doesn't even recruit from your college/come to your job fair, it gets a lot harder to get noticed filling out job/internship applications online.

Also, all the investment/consulting firms that I listed recruit at Notre Dame. That's why I don't put much onto rankings. The education might be better at W&M Business, but the top firms at Notre Dame are better.

Your college is either or a target school where the firm recruits from, or its not. If its not, you need a hell lot of networking, often through parents, to get in, especially in finance/consulting.

So yes you can get a good job and good education. But the students that get into W&M, UVA, Virginia Tech are go-getters - they want the top jobs. They can get a good job from any of the schools, but they will have a much harder time getting a top job from W&M due to lack of recruiting/not being a target school.

You're nuts. Generally only the top at McIntire would have a shot. McIntire has maybe 700 undergraduates.

They recruit top Economics majors for the same positions.

Regardless, if only the top 10-20% of UVA have a shot despite the recruiters coming to campus, doing campus interviews and UVA being a "target" university, what does that say about the chance of W&M students where the firms don't come to campus, don't do campus interviews and W&M is not a "target" university?

Regardless these are only a small portion of jobs. It's only an illustration of the top firms that recruit at UVA (and Ivies/top privates/top publics) but don't at W&M. As I said, plenty chance to get a great job. But some students specifically want these high prestige, high pay (and high work-hours and stress) jobs, and they have a better chance at getting them from UVA McIntire than W&M Mason, currently.

Focusing just on firms like McKinsey distorts the situation. Less than 1 in 1,000 UVA undergraduates is employed at McKinsey according to LinkedIn. The top 10 commercial employers for UVA and W&M grads are actually the same firms in a somewhat different order. Even the top 10 only accounts for about 3% of graduates. There are many, many employers out there.

UVA undergraduates: 1) Capitol One 2) Deloitte 3) Booz 4) Accenture 5) Ernst & Young 6) Google 7) IBM 8) Microsoft 9) Amazon 10) PwC
W&M undergraduates: 1) Capitol One 2) Booz 3) Deloitte 4) Ernst & Young 5) Accenture 6) IBM 7) PwC 8) Google 9) Microsoft 10) Amazon

I would not dispute McIntire is going to have better placement than Mason at the very top firms. It is one of the top undergrad B-schools (#3 in Poets & Quants to #21 for W&M Mason). If someone is set on say Goldman as a target and is confident they will be accepted to McIntire, it would be a better choice than Mason. (If you can get to a school like Wharton, your odds will be significantly higher still.) But only about 4% of UVA undergraduates are in McIntire and you have to apply during the second year (same as Mason).

[Anonymous]

PP I already noted this:

Regardless these are only a small portion of jobs. It's only an illustration of the top firms that recruit at UVA (and Ivies/top privates/top publics) but don't at W&M. As I said, plenty chance to get a great job. But some students specifically want these high prestige, high pay (and high work-hours and stress) jobs, and they have a better chance at getting them from UVA McIntire than W&M Mason, currently.

A-type, striving, ambitious kids that want these prestigious jobs, given two roughly equivalent universities and everything being equal, may choose UVA over W&M simply because the ceiling is higher (or ceiling has higher probability).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Charlottesville is nice, but the Downtown area is not as described by the frequent poster here. I drive there and most UVA students would be taking the trolley rather than walking. The Corner has some nice spots and is convenient for many, but isn't like Ann Arbor or 6th Street by any stretch. If you live over past the football stadium, a couple of places there like Durty Nelly's on JPA would be more convenient. My favorite part of Charlottesville wasn't actually Charlottesville. I loved the Blue Ridge area about 20 miles to the West. The scenery is beautiful and there are many wineries there now. Not sure how many undergraduates go there due to cost and age. The thing I liked least about Charlottesville, and I'm sure this isn't unique to me, is 29 North. A lot of the shopping is there, and the biggest movie theater, but you'll be driving and not walking. It is unfortunate from an urban planning perspective.

To each his own. I'd go to W&M undergrad again if I had it to do over.

That is actually SMART urban planning. The big box stores that need giant plots of land and parking lots are all relegated to the highway on the north side of town. University Avenue/Main Street is mostly small businesses - the only chains I can think of on Main Street are Starbucks, CVS, and some banks. Everything else is a shop or restaurant owned by a local. It's awesome.

What is the with movie theater mentions in this thread? Is there some movie theater ratio akin to the Waffle House Index?

I am about to make a very important point, so please pay attention: there is a Wawa within close walking distance of campus.

LOL my ex was living in Williamsburg when this opened. It was a VERY BIG DEAL when Wawa opened. It's open 24 hours, so it becomes a de-facto afterparty spot.

That should tell you everything you need to know about the town of Williamsburg and it's amenities: the Wawa is the place to hang late at night 'cuz there isn't much else to do or walk to.

Love the school and the academics, but W'burg absolutely sucks as a college town. Great place to send your kid if you want them to study and not blow their tuition dollars on partying.

So if someone happens to love William & Mary and Williamsburg, what are you going to do? Call them an idiot? What made you the only arbiter of this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP I already noted this:

Regardless these are only a small portion of jobs. It's only an illustration of the top firms that recruit at UVA (and Ivies/top privates/top publics) but don't at W&M. As I said, plenty chance to get a great job. But some students specifically want these high prestige, high pay (and high work-hours and stress) jobs, and they have a better chance at getting them from UVA McIntire than W&M Mason, currently.

A-type, striving, ambitious kids that want these prestigious jobs, given two roughly equivalent universities and everything being equal, may choose UVA over W&M simply because the ceiling is higher (or ceiling has higher probability).

In the top part of your post you had "10-20%" or 3,000 students pursuing the Goldman/McKinsey positions. That seems wildly high given the numbers in those positions.

[Anonymous]

PP I said top 10-20% can pursue Goldman positions. Those not in the top 10-20% won't get a look. Those in the top 10-20% will get a look. It's not just GPA, after that its extracurricular and interviews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP thats also the line that solidifies what's been said in this thread for the past 10 pages, that Williamsburg is a terrible town and you have to make your own 'fun'.

Another pathetic attempt by you to redefine the comment in question, which was probably aimed at you and your endless attempts to dictate how people should think:

"When we walk through Williamsburg, I noticed that it felt comfortable. What my daughter noticed was that most of the people she met were smart, hard working and funny. They did not need someone else defining fun for them."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP thats also the line that solidifies what's been said in this thread for the past 10 pages, that Williamsburg is a terrible town and you have to make your own 'fun'.

Another pathetic attempt by you to redefine the comment in question, which was probably aimed at you and your endless attempts to dictate how people should think:

"When we walk through Williamsburg, I noticed that it felt comfortable. What my daughter noticed was that most of the people she met were smart, hard working and funny. They did not need someone else defining fun for them."

I think I wrote that. For smarter people, fun is not defined by amenities, but by the interactions with other smart people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP thats also the line that solidifies what's been said in this thread for the past 10 pages, that Williamsburg is a terrible town and you have to make your own 'fun'.

Another pathetic attempt by you to redefine the comment in question, which was probably aimed at you and your endless attempts to dictate how people should think:

"When we walk through Williamsburg, I noticed that it felt comfortable. What my daughter noticed was that most of the people she met were smart, hard working and funny. They did not need someone else defining fun for them."

I think I wrote that. For smarter people, fun is not defined by amenities, but by the interactions with other smart people.

Probably didn’t intend for that to sound as sweeping as it does. Pretty sure smarter people think that amenities are fun. I have a kid at Colby who’s pretty smart and she is thrilled about the new athletic center under construction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP thats also the line that solidifies what's been said in this thread for the past 10 pages, that Williamsburg is a terrible town and you have to make your own 'fun'.

Another pathetic attempt by you to redefine the comment in question, which was probably aimed at you and your endless attempts to dictate how people should think:

"When we walk through Williamsburg, I noticed that it felt comfortable. What my daughter noticed was that most of the people she met were smart, hard working and funny. They did not need someone else defining fun for them."

I think I wrote that. For smarter people, fun is not defined by amenities, but by the interactions with other smart people.

Probably didn’t intend for that to sound as sweeping as it does. Pretty sure smarter people think that amenities are fun. I have a kid at Colby who’s pretty smart and she is thrilled about the new athletic center under construction.

Some people love places like Kenyon and Sewanee. Some people love places like NYU. Some say Ann Arbor is ideal. Others think they'll freeze their butt off there. People are different and interactions with others are the most significant factor in happiness for most.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP thats also the line that solidifies what's been said in this thread for the past 10 pages, that Williamsburg is a terrible town and you have to make your own 'fun'.

Another pathetic attempt by you to redefine the comment in question, which was probably aimed at you and your endless attempts to dictate how people should think:

"When we walk through Williamsburg, I noticed that it felt comfortable. What my daughter noticed was that most of the people she met were smart, hard working and funny. They did not need someone else defining fun for them."

How did I redefine the statement? It's exactly what I said.
The amenities and the town itself is terrible. Students make their own 'fun'. Sounds about the same as whats written by the other poster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP thats also the line that solidifies what's been said in this thread for the past 10 pages, that Williamsburg is a terrible town and you have to make your own 'fun'.

Another pathetic attempt by you to redefine the comment in question, which was probably aimed at you and your endless attempts to dictate how people should think:

"When we walk through Williamsburg, I noticed that it felt comfortable. What my daughter noticed was that most of the people she met were smart, hard working and funny. They did not need someone else defining fun for them."

I think I wrote that. For smarter people, fun is not defined by amenities, but by the interactions with other smart people.

Probably didn’t intend for that to sound as sweeping as it does. Pretty sure smarter people think that amenities are fun. I have a kid at Colby who’s pretty smart and she is thrilled about the new athletic center under construction.

Some people love places like Kenyon and Sewanee. Some people love places like NYU. Some say Ann Arbor is ideal. Others think they'll freeze their butt off there. People are different and interactions with others are the most significant factor in happiness for most.

Much better! I accept your changes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP The thrust of this thread is why many students, primarily male, prefer UVA, Virginia Tech and even JMU to W&M.

Reason is, top-tier recruiting is not as good.

While you are correct that not many students go to the top firms, thats the point of being top firms. Usually, only the top 10-20% of the class at a top public has the change to get into a firm like McKinsey or Goldman. But thats a huge number of students - 3000 UVA students that can get in for internships and jobs, half the size of W&M's undergrad population.

For tech, its more about skill than grades, so the door is wider. But if the company doesn't even recruit from your college/come to your job fair, it gets a lot harder to get noticed filling out job/internship applications online.

Also, all the investment/consulting firms that I listed recruit at Notre Dame. That's why I don't put much onto rankings. The education might be better at W&M Business, but the top firms at Notre Dame are better.

Your college is either or a target school where the firm recruits from, or its not. If its not, you need a hell lot of networking, often through parents, to get in, especially in finance/consulting.

So yes you can get a good job and good education. But the students that get into W&M, UVA, Virginia Tech are go-getters - they want the top jobs. They can get a good job from any of the schools, but they will have a much harder time getting a top job from W&M due to lack of recruiting/not being a target school.

You're nuts. Generally only the top at McIntire would have a shot. McIntire has maybe 700 undergraduates.

They recruit top Economics majors for the same positions.

Regardless, if only the top 10-20% of UVA have a shot despite the recruiters coming to campus, doing campus interviews and UVA being a "target" university, what does that say about the chance of W&M students where the firms don't come to campus, don't do campus interviews and W&M is not a "target" university?

Regardless these are only a small portion of jobs. It's only an illustration of the top firms that recruit at UVA (and Ivies/top privates/top publics) but don't at W&M. As I said, plenty chance to get a great job. But some students specifically want these high prestige, high pay (and high work-hours and stress) jobs, and they have a better chance at getting them from UVA McIntire than W&M Mason, currently.

Focusing just on firms like McKinsey distorts the situation. Less than 1 in 1,000 UVA undergraduates is employed at McKinsey according to LinkedIn. The top 10 commercial employers for UVA and W&M grads are actually the same firms in a somewhat different order. Even the top 10 only accounts for about 3% of graduates. There are many, many employers out there.

UVA undergraduates: 1) Capitol One 2) Deloitte 3) Booz 4) Accenture 5) Ernst & Young 6) Google 7) IBM 8) Microsoft 9) Amazon 10) PwC
W&M undergraduates: 1) Capitol One 2) Booz 3) Deloitte 4) Ernst & Young 5) Accenture 6) IBM 7) PwC 8) Google 9) Microsoft 10) Amazon

I would not dispute McIntire is going to have better placement than Mason at the very top firms. It is one of the top undergrad B-schools (#3 in Poets & Quants to #21 for W&M Mason). If someone is set on say Goldman as a target and is confident they will be accepted to McIntire, it would be a better choice than Mason. (If you can get to a school like Wharton, your odds will be significantly higher still.) But only about 4% of UVA undergraduates are in McIntire and you have to apply during the second year (same as Mason).

Lots of government-contractor positions in those employers: Deloitte, Booz, Accenture, E&Y. Many of these grads end up in DMV slogging it out for several years before moving on to something else more interesting. But, hey for two, traveling out of a suitcase and working on billable brainless work in Columbus, Ohio or Macon, Georgia is not all that bad.