What’s wrong with William & Mary?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP tech firms do recruit for business majors.
Although I think the post meant to say that top business firms recruit business majors at UVA while they don't recruit at all at W&M, and top tech companies recruit CS majors at UVA and VT but don't recruit at all at W&M.

A large part of it of course is that W&M is a small enough school that its not worth making the trip there for businesses to recruit vs. UVA or VT.

But that does not change the fact that the lack of top firm recruitment is a negative, especially for such a hard, rigorous and 'boring' school.
You work hard for 4 years and trade having fun for your future, then you at least want top-notch recruitment and placement for top jobs.

Again, unfair with no data. W&M's Mason business school ranks 14th in the country out of all business schools for 5 year ROI.

https://poetsandquantsforundergrads.com/2020/02/17/poetsquants-top-value-business-schools/

W&M Mason ranks 21st nationally in the Poets and Quants undergraduate ranking. It ranked 9th in the "Employment" category of the ranking. Poets and Quants is really the site for BBAs and MBAs these days.

https://poetsandquantsforundergrads.com/2019/12/20/wharton-again-tops-pqs-best-undergraduate-b-schools-of-2020/4/

I'll be the first to give kudos to UVA for undergraduate business. They are #3 in Poets and Quants. At the undergraduate level, after Wharton, there isn't a clear #2 and UVA is right there with a select few schools. The thing you have to remember about both UVA and W&M business is you have to apply in your second year. They aren't direct admits, unlike a number of other schools.

No amount of rankings changes the fact that top business and tech firms don't recruit from W&M. Sure, the education might be top class. The recruiting and placement is not top class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just find it odd none of my son's friends from various high schools in the area had no interest in applying to W&M. Many of them chose in state schools (UVA, VT and JMU).
W&M is such a highly regarded school and it is so surprising to me.

W&M is hard, not fun, and doesn't have hot chicks.

It's not hard to understand from the viewpoint of a 18 year old boy. And it doesn't have enough sheer national/international preftige to compensate for the above attributes.

I think this is very much true. W&M is a very good, rigorous and some would say 'hard' school. Virginians and the few people who know about it consider it to be a great, rigorous school.

It's also a 'boring' school compared to the large publics like Michigan, and even compared to the top privates like Notre Dame, Dartmouth, etc.

Problem is, it doesn't have the widespread prestige outside of Virginia and throughout the country and throughout the world that schools like U. Chicago and Johns Hopkins - two supposedly terribly boring and hard schools - have.

For example, UVA is generally considered to be an easier school to do well in than W&M. And UVA is certainly considered a party school. But UVA has far more reach across the country and has far more top firms and employers recruit from their career fair than W&M.

Top investment and private equity firms, top tech firms, etc. don't come to W&M career fairs and don't target W&M students. If they get into these firms they do so through their own networks, not through the school's.

Whoever you are, you are fact-free and bias-rich.

Undergraduate graduates First/Next destination reports for 2018 (on websites - last ones available and snapshot at 6 months after graduation):

UVA 2018: 65% working; 17% still looking; 16% continuing education; 1% volunteering; 1% military; 1% not seeking.
W&M 2018: 75% working; 5% still looking; 15% continuing education; 2% working part time; 2% pursuing grad school; 2% other.

Both are fine schools but should have more STEM majors for the way national hiring trends have been going.

Average UVA GPA in 2013: 3.32. Average W&M GPA in 2014: 3.33 gradeinflation.com

Added VT below for additional context.

Undergraduate graduates First/Next destination reports from each website for 2018. Survey data. These are snapshot at 6 months after graduation:

W&M 2018: 75% working; 5% still looking; 15% continuing education; 2% working part time; 2% pursuing grad school; 2% other.
UVA 2018: 65% working; 17% still looking; 16% continuing education; 1% volunteering; 1% military; 1% not seeking.
VT 2018: 56% working (or have job offer); 14% still looking (or will be looking); 18% continuing education; 3% military; 4% pursuing grad school; 5% other

Average W&M GPA in 2014: 3.33. Average UVA GPA in 2013: 3.32. Average VT GPA in 3 gradeinflation.com

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP tech firms do recruit for business majors.
Although I think the post meant to say that top business firms recruit business majors at UVA while they don't recruit at all at W&M, and top tech companies recruit CS majors at UVA and VT but don't recruit at all at W&M.

A large part of it of course is that W&M is a small enough school that its not worth making the trip there for businesses to recruit vs. UVA or VT.

But that does not change the fact that the lack of top firm recruitment is a negative, especially for such a hard, rigorous and 'boring' school.
You work hard for 4 years and trade having fun for your future, then you at least want top-notch recruitment and placement for top jobs.

Again, unfair with no data. W&M's Mason business school ranks 14th in the country out of all business schools for 5 year ROI.

https://poetsandquantsforundergrads.com/2020/02/17/poetsquants-top-value-business-schools/

W&M Mason ranks 21st nationally in the Poets and Quants undergraduate ranking. It ranked 9th in the "Employment" category of the ranking. Poets and Quants is really the site for BBAs and MBAs these days.

https://poetsandquantsforundergrads.com/2019/12/20/wharton-again-tops-pqs-best-undergraduate-b-schools-of-2020/4/

I'll be the first to give kudos to UVA for undergraduate business. They are #3 in Poets and Quants. At the undergraduate level, after Wharton, there isn't a clear #2 and UVA is right there with a select few schools. The thing you have to remember about both UVA and W&M business is you have to apply in your second year. They aren't direct admits, unlike a number of other schools.

No amount of rankings changes the fact that top business and tech firms don't recruit from W&M. Sure, the education might be top class. The recruiting and placement is not top class.

Well, the most read website on business education, Poets & Quants (founded by the former Executive Editor of Business Week who did their rankings) ranks W&M Mason 9th in the employment category based on surveys. And then there is you. . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just find it odd none of my son's friends from various high schools in the area had no interest in applying to W&M. Many of them chose in state schools (UVA, VT and JMU).
W&M is such a highly regarded school and it is so surprising to me.

W&M is hard, not fun, and doesn't have hot chicks.

It's not hard to understand from the viewpoint of a 18 year old boy. And it doesn't have enough sheer national/international preftige to compensate for the above attributes.

I think this is very much true. W&M is a very good, rigorous and some would say 'hard' school. Virginians and the few people who know about it consider it to be a great, rigorous school.

It's also a 'boring' school compared to the large publics like Michigan, and even compared to the top privates like Notre Dame, Dartmouth, etc.

Problem is, it doesn't have the widespread prestige outside of Virginia and throughout the country and throughout the world that schools like U. Chicago and Johns Hopkins - two supposedly terribly boring and hard schools - have.

For example, UVA is generally considered to be an easier school to do well in than W&M. And UVA is certainly considered a party school. But UVA has far more reach across the country and has far more top firms and employers recruit from their career fair than W&M.

Top investment and private equity firms, top tech firms, etc. don't come to W&M career fairs and don't target W&M students. If they get into these firms they do so through their own networks, not through the school's.

Whoever you are, you are fact-free and bias-rich.

Undergraduate graduates First/Next destination reports for 2018 (on websites - last ones available and snapshot at 6 months after graduation):

UVA 2018: 65% working; 17% still looking; 16% continuing education; 1% volunteering; 1% military; 1% not seeking.
W&M 2018: 75% working; 5% still looking; 15% continuing education; 2% working part time; 2% pursuing grad school; 2% other.

Both are fine schools but should have more STEM majors for the way national hiring trends have been going.

Average UVA GPA in 2013: 3.32. Average W&M GPA in 2014: 3.33 gradeinflation.com

Added VT below for additional context.

Undergraduate graduates First/Next destination reports from each website for 2018. Survey data. These are snapshot at 6 months after graduation:

W&M 2018: 75% working; 5% still looking; 15% continuing education; 2% working part time; 2% pursuing grad school; 2% other.
UVA 2018: 65% working; 17% still looking; 16% continuing education; 1% volunteering; 1% military; 1% not seeking.
VT 2018: 56% working (or have job offer); 14% still looking (or will be looking); 18% continuing education; 3% military; 4% pursuing grad school; 5% other

Average W&M GPA in 2014: 3.33. Average UVA GPA in 2013: 3.32. Average VT GPA in 3 gradeinflation.com

^ Average VT GPA was 3.15 in 2015

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP tech firms do recruit for business majors.
Although I think the post meant to say that top business firms recruit business majors at UVA while they don't recruit at all at W&M, and top tech companies recruit CS majors at UVA and VT but don't recruit at all at W&M.

A large part of it of course is that W&M is a small enough school that its not worth making the trip there for businesses to recruit vs. UVA or VT.

But that does not change the fact that the lack of top firm recruitment is a negative, especially for such a hard, rigorous and 'boring' school.
You work hard for 4 years and trade having fun for your future, then you at least want top-notch recruitment and placement for top jobs.

Again, unfair with no data. W&M's Mason business school ranks 14th in the country out of all business schools for 5 year ROI.

https://poetsandquantsforundergrads.com/2020/02/17/poetsquants-top-value-business-schools/

W&M Mason ranks 21st nationally in the Poets and Quants undergraduate ranking. It ranked 9th in the "Employment" category of the ranking. Poets and Quants is really the site for BBAs and MBAs these days.

https://poetsandquantsforundergrads.com/2019/12/20/wharton-again-tops-pqs-best-undergraduate-b-schools-of-2020/4/

I'll be the first to give kudos to UVA for undergraduate business. They are #3 in Poets and Quants. At the undergraduate level, after Wharton, there isn't a clear #2 and UVA is right there with a select few schools. The thing you have to remember about both UVA and W&M business is you have to apply in your second year. They aren't direct admits, unlike a number of other schools.

No amount of rankings changes the fact that top business and tech firms don't recruit from W&M. Sure, the education might be top class. The recruiting and placement is not top class.

Well, the most read website on business education, Poets & Quants (founded by the former Executive Editor of Business Week who did their rankings) ranks W&M Mason 9th in the employment category based on surveys. And then there is you. . .

That the business school is ranked high does not change the fact that the topmost firms in the tech, financial, and consulting industries don't recruit at W&M.
Can you get a great job from W&M? Definitely.
But the best firms in these industries don't recruit at W&M. AKA its not a "target" school

I.E. for investment banking:
JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Lazard, etc. recruit at UVA but don't recruit at W&M

For management consulting:
McKinsey, Bain, and Boston Consulting recruit at UVA but not W&M

For tech:
Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc. recruit at UVA and Virginia Tech but not W&M

So yeah, you can definitely get a good job from W&M. But they need these top firms to directly recruit from W&M in order for W&M to be more attractive to students.

[Anonymous]

To male students specifically because they are expected to make money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP tech firms do recruit for business majors.
Although I think the post meant to say that top business firms recruit business majors at UVA while they don't recruit at all at W&M, and top tech companies recruit CS majors at UVA and VT but don't recruit at all at W&M.

A large part of it of course is that W&M is a small enough school that its not worth making the trip there for businesses to recruit vs. UVA or VT.

But that does not change the fact that the lack of top firm recruitment is a negative, especially for such a hard, rigorous and 'boring' school.
You work hard for 4 years and trade having fun for your future, then you at least want top-notch recruitment and placement for top jobs.

Again, unfair with no data. W&M's Mason business school ranks 14th in the country out of all business schools for 5 year ROI.

https://poetsandquantsforundergrads.com/2020/02/17/poetsquants-top-value-business-schools/

W&M Mason ranks 21st nationally in the Poets and Quants undergraduate ranking. It ranked 9th in the "Employment" category of the ranking. Poets and Quants is really the site for BBAs and MBAs these days.

https://poetsandquantsforundergrads.com/2019/12/20/wharton-again-tops-pqs-best-undergraduate-b-schools-of-2020/4/

I'll be the first to give kudos to UVA for undergraduate business. They are #3 in Poets and Quants. At the undergraduate level, after Wharton, there isn't a clear #2 and UVA is right there with a select few schools. The thing you have to remember about both UVA and W&M business is you have to apply in your second year. They aren't direct admits, unlike a number of other schools.

No amount of rankings changes the fact that top business and tech firms don't recruit from W&M. Sure, the education might be top class. The recruiting and placement is not top class.

Well, the most read website on business education, Poets & Quants (founded by the former Executive Editor of Business Week who did their rankings) ranks W&M Mason 9th in the employment category based on surveys. And then there is you. . .

That the business school is ranked high does not change the fact that the topmost firms in the tech, financial, and consulting industries don't recruit at W&M.
Can you get a great job from W&M? Definitely.
But the best firms in these industries don't recruit at W&M. AKA its not a "target" school

I.E. for investment banking:
JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Lazard, etc. recruit at UVA but don't recruit at W&M

For management consulting:
McKinsey, Bain, and Boston Consulting recruit at UVA but not W&M

For tech:
Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc. recruit at UVA and Virginia Tech but not W&M

So yeah, you can definitely get a good job from W&M. But they need these top firms to directly recruit from W&M in order for W&M to be more attractive to students.

I argued that Mason is good. I didn't argue it is better than UVA McIntire, which is one of the top undergraduate business schools, coming in at 3 in Poets & Quants. (In my view, UVA's strongest schools are Law, Darden, and McIntire.)

Relatively few undergraduates end up at some of these consulting and investment firms, so I don't think it should be the top thing prospective students should focus on. In a survey of McKinsey, BCG, and Bain consultants hired from undergraduate school, 0% of the McKinsey consultants were from UVA. It was 1% at BCG, and 0% at Bain. Stanford (with no undergraduate business school) had 3.5% at McKinsey, 2% at BCG, and 8% at Bain.

W&M business ranked 15th among all U.S. undergraduate business schools in total first year salary. (UVA was 4th.) W&M was ahead of schools like Emory and Notre Dame. You always manipulate everything to minimize W&M. There are 600+ accredited business schools in the U.S. W&M was ranked 21 in Poets & Quants.

[Anonymous]

PP The thrust of this thread is why many students, primarily male, prefer UVA, Virginia Tech and even JMU to W&M.

Reason is, top-tier recruiting is not as good.

While you are correct that not many students go to the top firms, thats the point of being top firms. Usually, only the top 10-20% of the class at a top public has the change to get into a firm like McKinsey or Goldman. But thats a huge number of students - 3000 UVA students that can get in for internships and jobs, half the size of W&M's undergrad population.

For tech, its more about skill than grades, so the door is wider. But if the company doesn't even recruit from your college/come to your job fair, it gets a lot harder to get noticed filling out job/internship applications online.

Also, all the investment/consulting firms that I listed recruit at Notre Dame. That's why I don't put much onto rankings. The education might be better at W&M Business, but the top firms at Notre Dame are better.

Your college is either or a target school where the firm recruits from, or its not. If its not, you need a hell lot of networking, often through parents, to get in, especially in finance/consulting.

So yes you can get a good job and good education. But the students that get into W&M, UVA, Virginia Tech are go-getters - they want the top jobs. They can get a good job from any of the schools, but they will have a much harder time getting a top job from W&M due to lack of recruiting/not being a target school.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for the feedback. We were trying to focus on the social aspect and fit that we had not looked into what type of companies W&M attract for business students. I have already heard from others that VT does offer a large network of alumni and top companies in the DC metro area that consistently hire graduates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for the feedback. We were trying to focus on the social aspect and fit that we had not looked into what type of companies W&M attract for business students. I have already heard from others that VT does offer a large network of alumni and top companies in the DC metro area that consistently hire graduates.

Honestly, you can get into any company from any school, it just depends on how hard you're willing to work. My DS went to W&M and works in finance now; he was on the phone with alumni and other contacts every week, networking and meeting people in person over school breaks. He prepared for interviews on weekends. It was like a full-time job for him. In contrast, his friends at UVA would usually send in a resume to those same companies through their school recruiting website. He said that UVA "definitely" had more, and better, opportunities available, but that not everyone took advantage of them (I'd say that this is true at every school, though).

You certainly don't need to put as much work into it as he did, but I definitely think that getting into McKinsey or Goldman is possible from W&M if that's genuinely your goal. A lot of students (DS included) make it their goal to get into those positions once they realize that they pay quite well and are "prestigious", and lose their prior career interests. So I do think that focusing on the social aspect over what career a school may potentially offer you based on recruiting trends at the time of application is the smarter move. Let your kid go where he'll be happiest within your budget.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for the feedback. We were trying to focus on the social aspect and fit that we had not looked into what type of companies W&M attract for business students. I have already heard from others that VT does offer a large network of alumni and top companies in the DC metro area that consistently hire graduates.

Yes, if your son is interested in investment banking or management consulting, he should heavily consider UVA. Of course he will need to get into McIntire and be top of the class to get the top offers, but at W&M he will need to get into Mason (which may be easier than McIntire, not sure), be top of the class and do a lot of networking himself.
Unless you have friends/family that could refer to him to one of these jobs.

But of course, fit matters most, and if your son wants a small, New England private LAC-ish environment, W&M would certainly be a better fit than UVA, which has historical prestige but is still very much a large Southern public university, although with a wealthier feel.

[Anonymous]

Also, VT having a large alumni network isn't necessarily a big deal. Sure, the might prefer VT grads because they know the coursework. But its concentrated in Nova and not national, and its not like VT alumni are going to go out of their way to help VT grads because theres simply far too many VT grads.

[Anonymous]

Actually investment top banks do recruit from W&M. It’s a smaller much more specific group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for the feedback. We were trying to focus on the social aspect and fit that we had not looked into what type of companies W&M attract for business students. I have already heard from others that VT does offer a large network of alumni and top companies in the DC metro area that consistently hire graduates.

You should probably try to rely on hard data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP The thrust of this thread is why many students, primarily male, prefer UVA, Virginia Tech and even JMU to W&M.

Reason is, top-tier recruiting is not as good.

While you are correct that not many students go to the top firms, thats the point of being top firms. Usually, only the top 10-20% of the class at a top public has the change to get into a firm like McKinsey or Goldman. But thats a huge number of students - 3000 UVA students that can get in for internships and jobs, half the size of W&M's undergrad population.

For tech, its more about skill than grades, so the door is wider. But if the company doesn't even recruit from your college/come to your job fair, it gets a lot harder to get noticed filling out job/internship applications online.

Also, all the investment/consulting firms that I listed recruit at Notre Dame. That's why I don't put much onto rankings. The education might be better at W&M Business, but the top firms at Notre Dame are better.

Your college is either or a target school where the firm recruits from, or its not. If its not, you need a hell lot of networking, often through parents, to get in, especially in finance/consulting.

So yes you can get a good job and good education. But the students that get into W&M, UVA, Virginia Tech are go-getters - they want the top jobs. They can get a good job from any of the schools, but they will have a much harder time getting a top job from W&M due to lack of recruiting/not being a target school.

You're nuts. Generally only the top at McIntire would have a shot. McIntire has maybe 700 undergraduates.