Making it work when the wife is the one with the "big job" - s/o today's NY Times article

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, why should she do his parenting role, hers as well, AND work full time outside of the home? Just because she’s a woman?

DP.

Ask the OP that question. She seems to want her husband to do her parenting role and work full time outside of the home because she makes more money.

50/50 is the default expectation unless both explicitly agree otherwise. For example, OP and her husband mutually agreed to prioritize her significantly higher earning career. Yes, he is a high earner. However, a career that caps out at 200k is not in the same subcategory of high earner as a career that brings 400k a year with the potential for more. He agreed to prioritize her career precisely because it is significantly higher earning.

The only way that she can prioritize her career is if he picks up the slack at home. He agree to this and he's not holding up his end of the bargain.

I am sorry, but you and OP are dense. This is not kindergarten where you pinky swear and promise to throw a tantrum if you don't get what you want just the way you want it. The "agreement " is clearly not working for OP. Time to move on. We have a woman who has a husband making much more than what OP does, and he still gets to do his share of parenting. And that PP is happily married.

OP might want to try that agreement. If that will not do for her, there seems to be an even better way to handle things: outsource most of the stupid stuff for Pete's sake.

She loves neither herself nor her husband if she spends a second thinking about laundry that he did not do while earning 600K . Ridiculous!

First, it's one thing if OP's husband sincerely tried to do the primary parent/hh stuff and it just wasn't in his skillset, but that's not the case. OP's husband has openly stated that he wasn't willing to be in charge of kid's stuff and only does hh chores that he likes or if asked (that's not how running a hh works).

It's also not just about laundry. He's embarrassed about being only dad at kid events to the point where he won't take his kids to activities. Also, why is OP the one managing their SN kid's medical issues? That's definitely something that should be in the primary parent's wheelhouse. He's not willing to be the hh manager, he's also not willing to be the primary parent.

Second, the situation with the pp and her high earning dh is not applicable here. If someone tells their spouse who makes 5x more that s/he is still expected to do their 50% at home, then they are, in effect, saying that despite the spouse's significantly higher earnings, their career doesn't have a higher priority. That despite significant disparities in income, both careers have a similar priority in their family. Nothing wrong with that but that's not OP and her's husband's agreement.

Lastly, if my spouse makes an agreement, it's absolutely reasonable for me to expect them to, at least, try to honor that agreement. It would also be absurd for my spouse to not honor their commitment but expect me to honor mine. Remember, OP's dh still wants her to bring in 400K a year but he's just not willing to give her the support necessary to do it.

OP would be a fool to keep insisting that that was the agreement. Let her sit down and have an honest discussion with him. He will call out her bluff and ask her to lean out and bring 150K.

The bolded is all in OP's head. Nobody wants to be a single parent while working full time for an extra 200k when they could have a more even split of duties and 400K income.

OP should make the "agreement" sweeter for him: No house work , just parenting. People do not live in a vacuum with unlimited time and energy. You cannot pick and choose what the issue is. It takes a couple of hours to fold laundry and another couple to do yard work. Who knows what else he has to do? That is several extra hours her husband could spend resting, hanging out with the kids, organizing their activities. She wants him happier so she and her children can be happier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm really perplexed at all the people saying "hire a house manager" etc.

We make over 800k and I wouldn't hire a house manager at our income. House managers cost a lot of money! You need to pay them a professional salary + benefits. Not worth it.

My husband is the breadwinner though I work too and make decent money (~150k). He is a detail oriented perfectionist and a CIO at his company. He's great at "mommy stuff" and remembering the kids' details.

I just don't get all these people in here saying men are bad at this stuff. They're not "bad" at it. They just don't want to do it so they make you think they are bad at it. There is a difference.

Someone who manages a portfolio of funds or works as a law partner should be able to manage a few details about the home front.

So your husband makes 700k +, is a c-suite executive, and carries 50% of the load at home? You married a unicorn. Why are you in here bragging?

I don't know if he's that uncommon or not but the point is, he shouldn't be. I signed up to be his partner, not his mommy. When we had our first baby and I went back to work, I basically told him "I'm going to do my part but not yours so you need to figure it out." and he did.

He's a great, super involved father and husband now and has been for years (our eldest is 10).

This.

DH and I are partners. Honestly, he shoulders more of the kids stuff than I do since his job is more flexible and he is physically around more.

I don't think anyone would disagree that marriages that are partnerships tend to work better than those that don't. Those can take different forms.

What's laughable in this case is that the guy makes *$700K* AND is Mr. Mom. GTFO with those expectations. His salary ALONE makes him a unicorn, and the PP's seeming obliviousness on that front borders on insulting.

Wife of the unicorn guy here. He is out grocery shopping right now, lol. You’re right, he is Mr. Mom. He is a very natural, warm, nurturing, hands on parent. Our kids love us equally and he is just as much the default parent as I am, maybe more. Depends on the kid, honestly (my daughter is very much a momma’s girl). In terms of him shouldering half of the load: most of that probably comes down to the fact that he doesn’t like to hire things out. Yes he makes a lot of money and we can afford it but we’re also trying to build our net worth so we don’t like wasting money on things we can easily do ourselves.

I feel bad for women who don’t have a partner like him. I feel bad for kids who don’t have an involved, hands on father like him. I don’t know what to tell you except: it’s definitely possible. You just have to have high standards. We’ve been married for 15 years and I trained him into the good husband he is now. He grew up in a traditional household (mom was a SAHM) and I had to let him know that wouldn’t be me. He accepts that.

Spare us your pity, please. You got damn lucky to find someone to meet your exceptionally high standards while you were still old enough to have kids.

Also, plenty of kids have involved, hands on fathers. They just don't all make $700K.

Very curious how someone can be that chill and nurturing and make $700k? Business, law, tech even medicine you kinda have to be a brutal cutthroat to get to that level. What does he do that allows him to thrive without being taken advantage of?

[Anonymous]

You are basically asking how to be a completely absent parent. This isn’t about gender.

[Anonymous]

It does not seem like you have a DH problem. He is bringing in 200K which is awesome and a big full time job on its own. The problem you have is the help you hired is not good enough and not competent. Fire your existing help and get more effective at managing your help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, why should she do his parenting role, hers as well, AND work full time outside of the home? Just because she’s a woman?

DP.

Ask the OP that question. She seems to want her husband to do her parenting role and work full time outside of the home because she makes more money.

50/50 is the default expectation unless both explicitly agree otherwise. For example, OP and her husband mutually agreed to prioritize her significantly higher earning career. Yes, he is a high earner. However, a career that caps out at 200k is not in the same subcategory of high earner as a career that brings 400k a year with the potential for more. He agreed to prioritize her career precisely because it is significantly higher earning.

The only way that she can prioritize her career is if he picks up the slack at home. He agree to this and he's not holding up his end of the bargain.

I am sorry, but you and OP are dense. This is not kindergarten where you pinky swear and promise to throw a tantrum if you don't get what you want just the way you want it. The "agreement " is clearly not working for OP. Time to move on. We have a woman who has a husband making much more than what OP does, and he still gets to do his share of parenting. And that PP is happily married.

OP might want to try that agreement. If that will not do for her, there seems to be an even better way to handle things: outsource most of the stupid stuff for Pete's sake.

She loves neither herself nor her husband if she spends a second thinking about laundry that he did not do while earning 600K . Ridiculous!

First, it's one thing if OP's husband sincerely tried to do the primary parent/hh stuff and it just wasn't in his skillset, but that's not the case. OP's husband has openly stated that he wasn't willing to be in charge of kid's stuff and only does hh chores that he likes or if asked (that's not how running a hh works).

It's also not just about laundry. He's embarrassed about being only dad at kid events to the point where he won't take his kids to activities. Also, why is OP the one managing their SN kid's medical issues? That's definitely something that should be in the primary parent's wheelhouse. He's not willing to be the hh manager, he's also not willing to be the primary parent.

Second, the situation with the pp and her high earning dh is not applicable here. If someone tells their spouse who makes 5x more that s/he is still expected to do their 50% at home, then they are, in effect, saying that despite the spouse's significantly higher earnings, their career doesn't have a higher priority. That despite significant disparities in income, both careers have a similar priority in their family. Nothing wrong with that but that's not OP and her's husband's agreement.

Lastly, if my spouse makes an agreement, it's absolutely reasonable for me to expect them to, at least, try to honor that agreement. It would also be absurd for my spouse to not honor their commitment but expect me to honor mine. Remember, OP's dh still wants her to bring in 400K a year but he's just not willing to give her the support necessary to do it.

OP would be a fool to keep insisting that that was the agreement. Let her sit down and have an honest discussion with him. He will call out her bluff and ask her to lean out and bring 150K.

The bolded is all in OP's head. Nobody wants to be a single parent while working full time for an extra 200k when they could have a more even split of duties and 400K income.

OP should make the "agreement" sweeter for him: No house work , just parenting. People do not live in a vacuum with unlimited time and energy. You cannot pick and choose what the issue is. It takes a couple of hours to fold laundry and another couple to do yard work. Who knows what else he has to do? That is several extra hours her husband could spend resting, hanging out with the kids, organizing their activities. She wants him happier so she and her children can be happier.

Did you read the OP?

We made the decision for me to lean in and him to lean out since that's what made sense in terms of an earning potential perspective.

Someone who wants their spouse to lean out since their combined income was so high wouldn't have made that agreement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm really perplexed at all the people saying "hire a house manager" etc.

We make over 800k and I wouldn't hire a house manager at our income. House managers cost a lot of money! You need to pay them a professional salary + benefits. Not worth it.

My husband is the breadwinner though I work too and make decent money (~150k). He is a detail oriented perfectionist and a CIO at his company. He's great at "mommy stuff" and remembering the kids' details.

I just don't get all these people in here saying men are bad at this stuff. They're not "bad" at it. They just don't want to do it so they make you think they are bad at it. There is a difference.

Someone who manages a portfolio of funds or works as a law partner should be able to manage a few details about the home front.

So your husband makes 700k +, is a c-suite executive, and carries 50% of the load at home? You married a unicorn. Why are you in here bragging?

I don't know if he's that uncommon or not but the point is, he shouldn't be. I signed up to be his partner, not his mommy. When we had our first baby and I went back to work, I basically told him "I'm going to do my part but not yours so you need to figure it out." and he did.

He's a great, super involved father and husband now and has been for years (our eldest is 10).

Poor guy.

You sound like a peach.

You sound jealous.

[Anonymous]

We don’t even know what OP’s “agreement” really was. All she says is that her husband agreed to lean out. It sounds to me like they didn’t discuss in detail what that meant, and then he realized that “lean out” to his wife meant “do all childcare and housework.” People keep harping on the girl scouts thing. It’s possible that he is just sad for his daughter that her mom doesn’t want to go to any activities with her ever, not even the ones where it’s mainly moms and daughters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point of the article was that both halves of the couple have equal education and earning power, but someone (typically the woman) steps back. OP is saying her DH agreed to step back and then does a shitty job of it. That's not fair. Actual salary has nothing to do with anything, if that is the deal they made. I'm the DW, am the stepped-back spouse who definitely is the default parent, and I earn north of $200k and am not part time. Saying the DH should get a pass just b/c he is also a high earner is nonsense. He agreed to lean out, he needs to actually do the stuff that comes along with that.

You can be "leaning out" at a job without regaining enough time to be a "leaned in" parent. It's likely to happen in jobs with income this high.

PP here and believe me, I know. That's why I included the rest of my post about how big you choose to make family life in terms of activities and other stuff that is more optional. We don't do a lot of activities, and definitely not on weeknights, I don't do PTA or classroom volunteering, and we cannot manage to make it to all school events. Today's intensive parenting dictates that this is borderline negligent, but you do what you have to do.

In OP's case, someone *has* to deal with the child's doctor appts and medications. It may still be hard on her DH b/c of his relatively high income job, but it's not like it's any easier on OP with her higher income and "bigger" job. Bottom line is someone has to do it between the two of them and though her DH is better positioned and seemingly agreed to handle it, he's not. That's the problem.

[Anonymous]

We know families who dont come to most school events, Birthday parties and activities and that is ok.

You can’t expect your DH to be Mrs. Mom. It is reasonable to have him deal with medical appointments and homework.

Hire a housekeeper who can cook.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know, OP. I get from this post that you don’t really respect your DH or his 200k contribution. I don’t know many 200k jobs that are truly easy. Like others have said, a vast majority of this county lives on 200k or less alone. You don’t “need” to make any more money than that, even - that is a choice.

What good is making 600k if you’re an absentee parent and miserable? What kind of life is that? You should let him quit or hire better help or both if your job is so important to you.

[Anonymous]

I haven't read this whole thread but here is my take:

My husband is my partner, not my opponent. Together we determine what the priorities are in our married life. We will decide for ourselves how important our careers are and how much energy we want to put into our jobs. If our family is better suited to having one working spouse and a SAH spouse, that is what we'll do. If we are better served both working and dividing home/life responsibilities even/steve down the middle, that's what we'll do. If we are better off having one spouse focus on and excel in their career while the other spouse focuses less on "getting ahead" and more on home/family life, that, too, is our choice.

I don't think it is realistic or wise to expect all couples adapt to one "best" formula. What works for one couple might not be the best thing for another couple.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: Point taken on the household manager. I can do that- and that would help a little- but I’m not skimping on the help as is. We have a lot of help, but managing the help is still a job. And as other PPs have pointed out there’s just stuff that can’t be outsourced, at least in terms of the way I’d like to parent. I wouldn’t even necessarily have a problem switching roles here, but that’s not what DH wants either - and the truth is that it wouldn’t be my preference. I just don’t think it’s fair that he gets to be the one that leans out while I’m the one that takes the role of the responsibilities of the one that leans out. Also, I’m not as concerned with dollar amounts (at all actually) as I am at the enormous differential in free time and what seems fair and right to me. If DH were a HS teacher making 50k and working his butt off, it wouldn’t bother me as much. So it’s not about the money, more the perception that the roles aren’t fair.

You need more competent help if you spend anymore than 15 minutes a day managing the help.

Kids have needs that can only be met by parents. Emotional needs, developmental needs, noticing things that are going on with them. These things cannot be outsourced. One of the parents has to be tuned in and proactive. That’s just the way it is. It’s what we sign up for it when we decide to become parents.

Do you think Einstein's mother fussed over Einstein to the extent parents do in 2019? I dont think so. I think parents burden themselves with such crazy expectations, it's not good for their own mental well-being as can be seen from OP's post.

[Anonymous]

I feel like I was already at my breaking point with our division of labor and this new revelation about how he refuses to go to "mom stuff" just burns me up inside. I literally can't keep up. I have almost no social life and make very little time for myself, and am constantly stressed and overworked. I can't take on more; I need to take on LESS. I don't think it's fair that he agrees that I should be the one to "lean in" when he's refusing to do the household work that goes along with the role of the spouse that leans out.

I told him that the only way I could really make this work in my mind is if he starts leaning in more, because then I could at least justify it in my mind. But the fact that he's watching tv for hours every night while I'm on the verge of an anxiety attack is just making me angry. It's obviously not that we need the money, but I wouldn't feel as used. And right now that is how I feel. He's not willing to do that and thinks that it's still better for the kids if he's physically present at night. In my core I think he's probably right, but that's not helping with the extreme resentment.

How do I get over this? How do other people manage if you are in this position?

To be completely honest, I would get to counseling with an eye towards divorce. You make twice what he does and stand to make much more - hire a personal assistant/nanny and dump the dead weight.

I know others will completely disagree, but his behavior and attitude are pretty disgusting - tied up in his ego and complete disregard for you as a person. I don't think I could just get over that.

Second suggestion is drop ANYTHING you do for him. Literally everything. And take a look at what the kids are doing - can you cut back/simplify?

Even if you don't want to divorce I would hire a personal assistant/house manager that will take care of managing the rest of the staff, making Dr.s appointments, registering for camps. paperwork, etc.

[Anonymous]

I don't know, Op. You expect your husband to work full time and carry the brunt of the load on the home front, too. Plus, you give him to do lists and then get bent out of shape when he doesn't spend his off hours in the way you see fit.

It's his life, too. You can't impose your priorities on him. Compromise, agree on what is important and let the other stuff go.

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry, you have a HHI of 600K and you can't figure this out? Unlike many other people, you have options for addressing these issues because of your high income. You can afford to outsource nearly everything if you need to: house cleaning and laundry, food prep, yard maintenance, personal errands, nanny to drive DC to/from events and handle DC's schedule. That would leave you and DH with ONLY work and spending time with your DC and attending school/kid events. How is that not doable for you???

Also, might want to invest in a marriage counselor while you're at it. Both of you have huge chips on your shoulders, the resentment is building, and both of you want to be the alphas. There is a give and take in every marriage and it doesn't always align with gender or salary.