Making it work when the wife is the one with the "big job" - s/o today's NY Times article

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sure someone has posted about this already, but there was a great article in today's NY Times about working parents dealing with long hours, essentially saying that someone has to lean out and it's usually the mom, which widens the gender gap: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/26/upshot/women-long-hours-greedy-professions.html?fbclid=IwAR1_UoCV34qcfBXqadhkj6YvaFY4QTEI-VuDFakohVYxmeSCaOAzaD7GSMU

I have a spin on this and I would love input from others who may be in my situation. (Side note: not sure if this should have been in general parenting or jobs/careers but I'm going to leave it here since I think this is the best fit).

My husband and I are both highly educated and have professional jobs. We made the decision for me to lean in and him to lean out since that's what made sense in terms of an earning potential perspective. He makes about 200k and will probably not make too much more than that in the long term unless he leans way in, and even then it's a huge crapshoot. I make about double what he does, and have the very reasonable potential to keep making more and more and more, the way I have done every year. My income is basically just limited to my own time and ability to concentrate on work instead of family.

He is great about getting home earlier than me to handle bedtime and can predictably be back by about 6-6:30 pm most nights. He is also pretty good at doing what he's told if I give him concrete tasks (i.e. laundry) although he's been giving me more and more push back about some of these lately. He also does a ton around the house, but mostly stuff that he wants to do, like lawn care.

Where we struggle is that (a) he refuses, and I mean refuses to take on the mental load that all these ladies in this article take on. In fairness, they all work PT and he doesn't, so there's that. But I don't think that I can be the breadwinner and balance this mental load. There is literally always something that needs to be figured out or done, and usually it would take too much time to explain to someone else or have them do so I generally end up doing it myself. He is 100% adamant that he is not willing to be "in charge" of the kid stuff even if I trade for some of his other responsibilities.

He'll do what he is asked (again.. mostly..not always..) but he's not the COO of our household as it relates to the people inside it. I'm the one managing the calendar; hiring/managing the help we have; managing our special need's child's many doctors appointments and I'm supposed to be managing her medications which has been a big struggle; managing our social life as a couple and as a family; making sure the kids are enrolled in activities and camps and whatever else; scheduling well visits and haircuts and making sure everyone has shoes to fit and seasonally appropriate clothes to wear and this, that and the other. Making sure homework is done and tests are studied for; writing grocery lists and cleaning out the fridge each week (he will shop if I give him a list); buying birthday gifts; ordering Christmas cards; dentist and well-child appointments; camp paperwork. I mean I could just keep going for a year. This is by no means an exhaustive list.

While I know that I don't do it all, I feel like it most of the time (in fairness, maybe he does too - he says he does - and I know that he also does plenty esp for the outside and tech support type stuff). But I literally stay up until 2-3 am every day working so that I can balance my work and doing everything, and I feel so damn resentful when he's watching tv and relaxing at night since he has extra time at the end of the day.

What set me over the edge lately was that he explained that he thinks I have a terrible work-life balance (this is true but it's also sort of a prerequisite for someone with the kind of job I have, and he's not exactly complaining about the income - far from it) and said that he's resentful and unwilling to attend events for our children that are typically attended by mothers. He feels very upset about three instances when he had to attend preschool events for one of our children and he was the only father there and felt embarrassed. I don't think he was upset about missing work at all or the ramifications of that, just that it was humiliating for him to be the only dad there. And that he's DONE going to girl scouts or whatever else I've asked him to do on a very irregular basis throughout the years so I could work.

I feel like I was already at my breaking point with our division of labor and this new revelation about how he refuses to go to "mom stuff" just burns me up inside. I literally can't keep up. I have almost no social life and make very little time for myself, and am constantly stressed and overworked. I can't take on more; I need to take on LESS. I don't think it's fair that he agrees that I should be the one to "lean in" when he's refusing to do the household work that goes along with the role of the spouse that leans out.

I told him that the only way I could really make this work in my mind is if he starts leaning in more, because then I could at least justify it in my mind. But the fact that he's watching tv for hours every night while I'm on the verge of an anxiety attack is just making me angry. It's obviously not that we need the money, but I wouldn't feel as used. And right now that is how I feel. He's not willing to do that and thinks that it's still better for the kids if he's physically present at night. In my core I think he's probably right, but that's not helping with the extreme resentment.

How do I get over this? How do other people manage if you are in this position?

P.S. We do have help, because I know that's coming - but they need to be managed and micro-managed, or else stuff doesn't get done.

P.P.S. My job is not the kind that would allow me to just, work less. If I want to be successful at what I do I need to work the same kind of hours or tone it down so substantially that it would be a very different job.

He is not holding up his end of the bargain. You are leaning in, and he is not leaning out - leaning out means picking up the lion's share of the home front, and he is actively NOT doing that.

What is his rationale for not owning the mental load?

This question is absurd. He works full time and makes $200k a year. Why should "owning the mental load" also be a thing he has to do at all?

[Anonymous]

Sorry but him being embarrassed to attend his children events?!?

Forgot the division of labor, I would have issues with him not being man enough to hang out with his daughter doing something she liked/loved. What if you died? She doesn’t get to do things because she doesn’t have a mom around.

[Anonymous]

Stop whining and hire some type of house manager for a couple or a few hours a day. You can afford it. Your DH makes $200,000 a year which is not chump change but sadly that's what you make it and his career out to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sure someone has posted about this already, but there was a great article in today's NY Times about working parents dealing with long hours, essentially saying that someone has to lean out and it's usually the mom, which widens the gender gap: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/26/upshot/women-long-hours-greedy-professions.html?fbclid=IwAR1_UoCV34qcfBXqadhkj6YvaFY4QTEI-VuDFakohVYxmeSCaOAzaD7GSMU

I have a spin on this and I would love input from others who may be in my situation. (Side note: not sure if this should have been in general parenting or jobs/careers but I'm going to leave it here since I think this is the best fit).

My husband and I are both highly educated and have professional jobs. We made the decision for me to lean in and him to lean out since that's what made sense in terms of an earning potential perspective. He makes about 200k and will probably not make too much more than that in the long term unless he leans way in, and even then it's a huge crapshoot. I make about double what he does, and have the very reasonable potential to keep making more and more and more, the way I have done every year. My income is basically just limited to my own time and ability to concentrate on work instead of family.

He is great about getting home earlier than me to handle bedtime and can predictably be back by about 6-6:30 pm most nights. He is also pretty good at doing what he's told if I give him concrete tasks (i.e. laundry) although he's been giving me more and more push back about some of these lately. He also does a ton around the house, but mostly stuff that he wants to do, like lawn care.

Where we struggle is that (a) he refuses, and I mean refuses to take on the mental load that all these ladies in this article take on. In fairness, they all work PT and he doesn't, so there's that. But I don't think that I can be the breadwinner and balance this mental load. There is literally always something that needs to be figured out or done, and usually it would take too much time to explain to someone else or have them do so I generally end up doing it myself. He is 100% adamant that he is not willing to be "in charge" of the kid stuff even if I trade for some of his other responsibilities.

He'll do what he is asked (again.. mostly..not always..) but he's not the COO of our household as it relates to the people inside it. I'm the one managing the calendar; hiring/managing the help we have; managing our special need's child's many doctors appointments and I'm supposed to be managing her medications which has been a big struggle; managing our social life as a couple and as a family; making sure the kids are enrolled in activities and camps and whatever else; scheduling well visits and haircuts and making sure everyone has shoes to fit and seasonally appropriate clothes to wear and this, that and the other. Making sure homework is done and tests are studied for; writing grocery lists and cleaning out the fridge each week (he will shop if I give him a list); buying birthday gifts; ordering Christmas cards; dentist and well-child appointments; camp paperwork. I mean I could just keep going for a year. This is by no means an exhaustive list.

While I know that I don't do it all, I feel like it most of the time (in fairness, maybe he does too - he says he does - and I know that he also does plenty esp for the outside and tech support type stuff). But I literally stay up until 2-3 am every day working so that I can balance my work and doing everything, and I feel so damn resentful when he's watching tv and relaxing at night since he has extra time at the end of the day.

What set me over the edge lately was that he explained that he thinks I have a terrible work-life balance (this is true but it's also sort of a prerequisite for someone with the kind of job I have, and he's not exactly complaining about the income - far from it) and said that he's resentful and unwilling to attend events for our children that are typically attended by mothers. He feels very upset about three instances when he had to attend preschool events for one of our children and he was the only father there and felt embarrassed. I don't think he was upset about missing work at all or the ramifications of that, just that it was humiliating for him to be the only dad there. And that he's DONE going to girl scouts or whatever else I've asked him to do on a very irregular basis throughout the years so I could work.

I feel like I was already at my breaking point with our division of labor and this new revelation about how he refuses to go to "mom stuff" just burns me up inside. I literally can't keep up. I have almost no social life and make very little time for myself, and am constantly stressed and overworked. I can't take on more; I need to take on LESS. I don't think it's fair that he agrees that I should be the one to "lean in" when he's refusing to do the household work that goes along with the role of the spouse that leans out.

I told him that the only way I could really make this work in my mind is if he starts leaning in more, because then I could at least justify it in my mind. But the fact that he's watching tv for hours every night while I'm on the verge of an anxiety attack is just making me angry. It's obviously not that we need the money, but I wouldn't feel as used. And right now that is how I feel. He's not willing to do that and thinks that it's still better for the kids if he's physically present at night. In my core I think he's probably right, but that's not helping with the extreme resentment.

How do I get over this? How do other people manage if you are in this position?

P.S. We do have help, because I know that's coming - but they need to be managed and micro-managed, or else stuff doesn't get done.

P.P.S. My job is not the kind that would allow me to just, work less. If I want to be successful at what I do I need to work the same kind of hours or tone it down so substantially that it would be a very different job.

He is not holding up his end of the bargain. You are leaning in, and he is not leaning out - leaning out means picking up the lion's share of the home front, and he is actively NOT doing that.

What is his rationale for not owning the mental load?

This question is absurd. He works full time and makes $200k a year. Why should "owning the mental load" also be a thing he has to do at all?

I make the same amount and in our house, I own the mental load. DH makes less than half of what I do. He won't own the mental load even though he has far more free time than I do and makes far less money. It's how it is in our house.

It is possible, for sure, to outsource the mental load for certain things - e.g. birthday party planning, errands, grocery shopping, dog-walking, and the like. It is not possible to outsource the mental load for other things, e.g. noticing if a child is not on-track developmentally, identifying specialists to get diagnosis and treatment and attending appointments with them, attending doctor's appointments.

Thinking further, one could e.g. outsource attending a child's sporting event or dance performance - but why?

At what point are we uncomfortable hiring other people to make critical judgments about our children?

[Anonymous]

It's absurd that he wants to reap the financial rewards of you leaning in but not be willing to support you by being the primary household manager/parent. It's also weird that he wants you to lean in but still thinks of childcare as "women's work." He can't have it both ways. So he either steps up domestically or you lean out. Even a household manager requires oversight and coordination from one or both parents, is he willing to do that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Stop whining and hire some type of house manager for a couple or a few hours a day. You can afford it. Your DH makes $200,000 a year which is not chump change but sadly that's what you make it and his career out to be.

I am a DW in the same position. For what you are making you should invest in a great household manager at $100k/year (or probably less), especially if you have marital friction. It can't replace the whole thing with kids but a great one can do a lot.

i am guessing finding someone for $80-$100k/year to manage everything around the house, do picks, drop offs, birthday parties, suggest activities, help out with kids homework and track deadlines for them on a calendar and then give you both a summary at the end of the day (and set up dinner for you) would be totally doable.

Consider it.

[Anonymous]

You don't need as much money as you are making as a family, and making that much money is making your life less enjoyable. You can change this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You don't need as much money as you are making as a family, and making that much money is making your life less enjoyable. You can change this.

Bad answer. Because her dh will STILL refuse to do his share no matter how much or how little she works. This is a DH issue, not a leaning in/big job issue.

[Anonymous]

NP. Similar dynamics here, except I make less than you but more than DH. I've realized we can't have it all. My kids wanted to do girl scouts but I'm struggling with their existing extras (music + sport) already, so "sorry kids, we can't." Do I feel guilty? Sometimes, but they might as well learn from a young age that we as parents have limitations despite doing our best.

OP, you sound very type A, which is probably why you are so successful in your career and want to do it all for your kids. But the marital situation is much more challenging (as I've painfully learned) because you can't control your spouse who is unlikely to change.

So, I'd suggest either dial your expectations way down: do only what you can not what you want or as others have suggested, hire a household manager who can share your mental load. I get it; it sucks but it is what it is.

[Anonymous]

OP, you guys are so wealthy that you should work for 5/6 more years and then retire. There is no reason to stay on the hamster wheel unless you like it. 200k is plenty for your whole family it live on. People just think they need “all the stuff.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't need as much money as you are making as a family, and making that much money is making your life less enjoyable. You can change this.

Bad answer. Because her dh will STILL refuse to do his share no matter how much or how little she works. This is a DH issue, not a leaning in/big job issue.

So what’s your solution? He’s not likely to change. She could divorce him, but I can assure you that will not lighten her mental load. Or she can use that $200k he brings in to hire some quality help to get her through the child-rearing years.

[Anonymous]

You both work full time. That means you split other stuff 50/50. The burden doesn’t get placed on one spouse because they make less. You’re free to lean out and also still make a ton of money. Your income is over half mil a year. Figure it the eff out.

[Anonymous]

Are household managers even a thing? Like, are there people who have such job?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sure someone has posted about this already, but there was a great article in today's NY Times about working parents dealing with long hours, essentially saying that someone has to lean out and it's usually the mom, which widens the gender gap: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/26/upshot/women-long-hours-greedy-professions.html?fbclid=IwAR1_UoCV34qcfBXqadhkj6YvaFY4QTEI-VuDFakohVYxmeSCaOAzaD7GSMU

I have a spin on this and I would love input from others who may be in my situation. (Side note: not sure if this should have been in general parenting or jobs/careers but I'm going to leave it here since I think this is the best fit).

My husband and I are both highly educated and have professional jobs. We made the decision for me to lean in and him to lean out since that's what made sense in terms of an earning potential perspective. He makes about 200k and will probably not make too much more than that in the long term unless he leans way in, and even then it's a huge crapshoot. I make about double what he does, and have the very reasonable potential to keep making more and more and more, the way I have done every year. My income is basically just limited to my own time and ability to concentrate on work instead of family.

He is great about getting home earlier than me to handle bedtime and can predictably be back by about 6-6:30 pm most nights. He is also pretty good at doing what he's told if I give him concrete tasks (i.e. laundry) although he's been giving me more and more push back about some of these lately. He also does a ton around the house, but mostly stuff that he wants to do, like lawn care.

Where we struggle is that (a) he refuses, and I mean refuses to take on the mental load that all these ladies in this article take on. In fairness, they all work PT and he doesn't, so there's that. But I don't think that I can be the breadwinner and balance this mental load. There is literally always something that needs to be figured out or done, and usually it would take too much time to explain to someone else or have them do so I generally end up doing it myself. He is 100% adamant that he is not willing to be "in charge" of the kid stuff even if I trade for some of his other responsibilities.

He'll do what he is asked (again.. mostly..not always..) but he's not the COO of our household as it relates to the people inside it. I'm the one managing the calendar; hiring/managing the help we have; managing our special need's child's many doctors appointments and I'm supposed to be managing her medications which has been a big struggle; managing our social life as a couple and as a family; making sure the kids are enrolled in activities and camps and whatever else; scheduling well visits and haircuts and making sure everyone has shoes to fit and seasonally appropriate clothes to wear and this, that and the other. Making sure homework is done and tests are studied for; writing grocery lists and cleaning out the fridge each week (he will shop if I give him a list); buying birthday gifts; ordering Christmas cards; dentist and well-child appointments; camp paperwork. I mean I could just keep going for a year. This is by no means an exhaustive list.

While I know that I don't do it all, I feel like it most of the time (in fairness, maybe he does too - he says he does - and I know that he also does plenty esp for the outside and tech support type stuff). But I literally stay up until 2-3 am every day working so that I can balance my work and doing everything, and I feel so damn resentful when he's watching tv and relaxing at night since he has extra time at the end of the day.

What set me over the edge lately was that he explained that he thinks I have a terrible work-life balance (this is true but it's also sort of a prerequisite for someone with the kind of job I have, and he's not exactly complaining about the income - far from it) and said that he's resentful and unwilling to attend events for our children that are typically attended by mothers. He feels very upset about three instances when he had to attend preschool events for one of our children and he was the only father there and felt embarrassed. I don't think he was upset about missing work at all or the ramifications of that, just that it was humiliating for him to be the only dad there. And that he's DONE going to girl scouts or whatever else I've asked him to do on a very irregular basis throughout the years so I could work.

I feel like I was already at my breaking point with our division of labor and this new revelation about how he refuses to go to "mom stuff" just burns me up inside. I literally can't keep up. I have almost no social life and make very little time for myself, and am constantly stressed and overworked. I can't take on more; I need to take on LESS. I don't think it's fair that he agrees that I should be the one to "lean in" when he's refusing to do the household work that goes along with the role of the spouse that leans out.

I told him that the only way I could really make this work in my mind is if he starts leaning in more, because then I could at least justify it in my mind. But the fact that he's watching tv for hours every night while I'm on the verge of an anxiety attack is just making me angry. It's obviously not that we need the money, but I wouldn't feel as used. And right now that is how I feel. He's not willing to do that and thinks that it's still better for the kids if he's physically present at night. In my core I think he's probably right, but that's not helping with the extreme resentment.

How do I get over this? How do other people manage if you are in this position?

P.S. We do have help, because I know that's coming - but they need to be managed and micro-managed, or else stuff doesn't get done.

P.P.S. My job is not the kind that would allow me to just, work less. If I want to be successful at what I do I need to work the same kind of hours or tone it down so substantially that it would be a very different job.

He is not holding up his end of the bargain. You are leaning in, and he is not leaning out - leaning out means picking up the lion's share of the home front, and he is actively NOT doing that.

What is his rationale for not owning the mental load?

This question is absurd. He works full time and makes $200k a year. Why should "owning the mental load" also be a thing he has to do at all?

Because he brings in 33% of their HHI. She brings in 67%.

Someone has to handle the household and kids. Does it make more sense for the person who makes 1/3 of the family income to do it or the person who makes 2/3? If the genders were reversed you would be advising the lower earner that their income is irrelevant and they should stay home or work part time if they can’t handle the basics of the household.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm sure someone has posted about this already, but there was a great article in today's NY Times about working parents dealing with long hours, essentially saying that someone has to lean out and it's usually the mom, which widens the gender gap: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/26/upshot/women-long-hours-greedy-professions.html?fbclid=IwAR1_UoCV34qcfBXqadhkj6YvaFY4QTEI-VuDFakohVYxmeSCaOAzaD7GSMU

I have a spin on this and I would love input from others who may be in my situation. (Side note: not sure if this should have been in general parenting or jobs/careers but I'm going to leave it here since I think this is the best fit).

My husband and I are both highly educated and have professional jobs. We made the decision for me to lean in and him to lean out since that's what made sense in terms of an earning potential perspective. He makes about 200k and will probably not make too much more than that in the long term unless he leans way in, and even then it's a huge crapshoot. I make about double what he does, and have the very reasonable potential to keep making more and more and more, the way I have done every year. My income is basically just limited to my own time and ability to concentrate on work instead of family.

He is great about getting home earlier than me to handle bedtime and can predictably be back by about 6-6:30 pm most nights. He is also pretty good at doing what he's told if I give him concrete tasks (i.e. laundry) although he's been giving me more and more push back about some of these lately. He also does a ton around the house, but mostly stuff that he wants to do, like lawn care.

Where we struggle is that (a) he refuses, and I mean refuses to take on the mental load that all these ladies in this article take on. In fairness, they all work PT and he doesn't, so there's that. But I don't think that I can be the breadwinner and balance this mental load. There is literally always something that needs to be figured out or done, and usually it would take too much time to explain to someone else or have them do so I generally end up doing it myself. He is 100% adamant that he is not willing to be "in charge" of the kid stuff even if I trade for some of his other responsibilities.

He'll do what he is asked (again.. mostly..not always..) but he's not the COO of our household as it relates to the people inside it. I'm the one managing the calendar; hiring/managing the help we have; managing our special need's child's many doctors appointments and I'm supposed to be managing her medications which has been a big struggle; managing our social life as a couple and as a family; making sure the kids are enrolled in activities and camps and whatever else; scheduling well visits and haircuts and making sure everyone has shoes to fit and seasonally appropriate clothes to wear and this, that and the other. Making sure homework is done and tests are studied for; writing grocery lists and cleaning out the fridge each week (he will shop if I give him a list); buying birthday gifts; ordering Christmas cards; dentist and well-child appointments; camp paperwork. I mean I could just keep going for a year. This is by no means an exhaustive list.

While I know that I don't do it all, I feel like it most of the time (in fairness, maybe he does too - he says he does - and I know that he also does plenty esp for the outside and tech support type stuff). But I literally stay up until 2-3 am every day working so that I can balance my work and doing everything, and I feel so damn resentful when he's watching tv and relaxing at night since he has extra time at the end of the day.

What set me over the edge lately was that he explained that he thinks I have a terrible work-life balance (this is true but it's also sort of a prerequisite for someone with the kind of job I have, and he's not exactly complaining about the income - far from it) and said that he's resentful and unwilling to attend events for our children that are typically attended by mothers. He feels very upset about three instances when he had to attend preschool events for one of our children and he was the only father there and felt embarrassed. I don't think he was upset about missing work at all or the ramifications of that, just that it was humiliating for him to be the only dad there. And that he's DONE going to girl scouts or whatever else I've asked him to do on a very irregular basis throughout the years so I could work.

I feel like I was already at my breaking point with our division of labor and this new revelation about how he refuses to go to "mom stuff" just burns me up inside. I literally can't keep up. I have almost no social life and make very little time for myself, and am constantly stressed and overworked. I can't take on more; I need to take on LESS. I don't think it's fair that he agrees that I should be the one to "lean in" when he's refusing to do the household work that goes along with the role of the spouse that leans out.

I told him that the only way I could really make this work in my mind is if he starts leaning in more, because then I could at least justify it in my mind. But the fact that he's watching tv for hours every night while I'm on the verge of an anxiety attack is just making me angry. It's obviously not that we need the money, but I wouldn't feel as used. And right now that is how I feel. He's not willing to do that and thinks that it's still better for the kids if he's physically present at night. In my core I think he's probably right, but that's not helping with the extreme resentment.

How do I get over this? How do other people manage if you are in this position?

P.S. We do have help, because I know that's coming - but they need to be managed and micro-managed, or else stuff doesn't get done.

P.P.S. My job is not the kind that would allow me to just, work less. If I want to be successful at what I do I need to work the same kind of hours or tone it down so substantially that it would be a very different job.

You apparently have time for looooooooooooong posts.