For those well-meaning social workers

[Anonymous]

Yeah. Taxpayers aren’t going to pay for end of life care to make sure that you still get your inheritance. I’m sorry. It sucks to find that out this way. You aren’t the first person to see a house or money that you were counting on disappear into medical bills. I’m glad that you found a charity through this second hospice agency that was a level to help.

[Anonymous]

OP, is your aunt's house in her name or yours and your DH at the moment? Whose name(s) is/are on the deeds of the property?

If your aunt's name ONLY is on the deeds but you & DH have been financing this house by paying the mortgage, have you never sought legal advice on what happens when your aunt dies?
I don't know the legalisation but it is something I would have looked into from the start.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think OP is being unfairly criticised here.

Some of you seem to think that OP should be making decisions about her aunt's end of life care. Why? She is her aunt's NIECE, not her aunt's daughter.
OP stated from the start that she comes from a large family with 30+ nieces and nephews. Why should OP make all the effort here while other family members can sit back and have a nice life?

OP just happens to be the one who is physically there in person. This doesn't mean she should be burdened with end of life decisions.

I think most people are saying the opposite of that. OP should go. Her aunt should be making her own decisions about her end of life care. If she wants to die at home alone, then she should be able to do that. If she wants to sell her house to pay for end of life care instead of leaving it to OP, then she should be able to do that too. OP and her husband made a stupid financial decision with the house when they didn’t actually foreclose on the house and legally put it in their names when the aunt stopped paying her mortgage and they let her live there. This isn’t the social worker’s fault. At all.

OMG, yes. It’s a messed up situation but pissing on a social worker is not going to change it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Yeah. Taxpayers aren’t going to pay for end of life care to make sure that you still get your inheritance. I’m sorry. It sucks to find that out this way. You aren’t the first person to see a house or money that you were counting on disappear into medical bills. I’m glad that you found a charity through this second hospice agency that was a level to help.

Long term care Medicaid allows for home ownership and other stuff but they will place a lien on the house, if the house owns it once aunt passes. OP is making up stuff or gets really bad advice. Medicare pays for hospice. Not Charity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think OP is being unfairly criticised here.

Some of you seem to think that OP should be making decisions about her aunt's end of life care. Why? She is her aunt's NIECE, not her aunt's daughter.
OP stated from the start that she comes from a large family with 30+ nieces and nephews. Why should OP make all the effort here while other family members can sit back and have a nice life?

OP just happens to be the one who is physically there in person. This doesn't mean she should be burdened with end of life decisions.

I think most people are saying the opposite of that. OP should go. Her aunt should be making her own decisions about her end of life care. If she wants to die at home alone, then she should be able to do that. If she wants to sell her house to pay for end of life care instead of leaving it to OP, then she should be able to do that too. OP and her husband made a stupid financial decision with the house when they didn’t actually foreclose on the house and legally put it in their names when the aunt stopped paying her mortgage and they let her live there. This isn’t the social worker’s fault. At all.

OMG, yes. It’s a messed up situation but pissing on a social worker is not going to change it.

You can still own a home and go on long term care medicaid. But, OP will not inherit the house. The money from the sale of the house will go to pay for reimbursing medicaid.

OP makes no sense as she says she's not legally responsible but she took on a lot of responsibility and is the go to person.

This sounds fake.

No responsible hospice worker is going to give those kinds of meds without a 24/7 caretaker. And, if aunt is not close to death, where she cannot take care of herself, she wouldn't be receiving hospice. Hospice would call an ambulance and have her transported to the hospital and the hospital would put her in a nursing home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^And that's not because the social workers or doctors hate you, OP, or want to make your life miserable, or don't care about you, or her. It's because they CAN'T change it, anymore than you can.

Not without a declaration of incompetence and placement.

I suspect they know that she is not at that point yet, even if you might think she is. I suspect that disconnect is at the root of your anger, but they can't fix it.

And as I said, the new hospice is non-profit and thus can take donations. They do so much more and I intend to donate as well from her home proceeds. Why some of you don’t understand there are good and bad hospices and social workers is beyond me, but this is DCUM and there you are! TBH, I find the people in the DC area to be insufferable and plan to leave

This really is very hard. I've been through this three times. Yes, there are good and bad staff everywhere. It is not, however, the fault of a social worker that your aunt doesn't qualify for Medicaid. If her assets are over the line, even by a smidgen, then it is too much. Rather than railing against the person, ask them how you can divest the asset in order for her to qualify. And the reality is, if your aunt really is so close to her final days, there is no way she would qualify for Medicaid on such a short turnaround. In the state where I handled this with my parents, I think the state has up to 45 days to make a determination on an application. I can't remember how long it takes after that for there to be an expenditure of funds.

And non profits are often more flexible. They can't and don't violate Medicaid rules, but sometimes have other resources to help a family. I had family members in three different settings. While the staff at the for profit nursing home where my dad lived were all incredibly nice, the overall services at the nonprofit where my mother was for her last years were much, much better. And my older sibling passed away in an county-run adult residential home for individuals with developmental disabilities where they also had hospice in place services. It is very, very hard to get a bed in a physical hospice.

GL to you, OP.

Not blaming the social worker about Medicaid. It is what it is. I don’t know where you got that idea? Medicaid has look back rules. My aunt will be gone in a few days, nurse said. A younger retired friend who’s done this before has come to help as paid aide. Godsend. The real issue here is my aunt is so stubborn, she’s refused all places in these very last days, insisting on staying home, not really understanding the burden she’s placed on me and the dangerous situation she’s placed herself in.

The other social worker was only interested in taking everything they could financially because she was not eligible for Medicaid - she just missed the cutoff due to a small pension on top of SS. Perhaps blame is a stretch but the staff's hands may be tied on what they can do, especially if this hospice is connected to a corporation. Who chose this hospice for your aunt? So hard to get hospice beds, but my experience has been that the non-profit ones are often better simply because care, not return to shareholders, is what guides their mission.

That is true - the OTHER social worker threatened to take all her assets if I dared even ask for respite care, which MediCARE pays for. As I said, the same hospice blamed me AND my aunt for stealing fentanyl patches the nurse herself put in another box. We found them before her terse, accusatory phone call to me. I’d call it a one-off until she blamed me a SECOND time for medicating my aunt too early, when her CNA clearly did it. I was at my folks (all three in the household can vouch for that), and came back to my aunt’s at the same time the CNA was leaving. I looked immediately in her clearly marked med box to find ALL the PM pills she was supposed to have at 8 PM gone. All the CNA was to do was give my aunt ONE of the breakthrough meds if she asked for it due to pain. I put a chart on the wall daily in plain sight with the AM meds, what they were, and what time they were given. It was not a hard job, and the CNA STILL managed to f it up. It’s clear they were not the right hospice so I changed to another and it’s been so much better.

The cancer center recommended the other hospice to my aunt.

You don't get all this. Medicare does not pay for respite. Medicaid might depending on what state you are in. Medicaid also pays for long term nursing homes BUT they do require you to have limited assests and if you have things like a home, they don't require you to sell it but they put a lien on the home to pay back for the care.

Hospice doesn't run daily care. A family member or private agency does.

If the medication is missing it can be an issue for hospice. They need to stop giving out medication if the caretakers cannot handle it properly.

God, some of you are so clueless and love to start with “you don’t get this’ when indeed it is the poster who doesn’t: Social worker said medicare DOES pay for 5 day inpatient hospice. Then they get sent home. Where the donations kick in is the hospice can use those donations to keep the person longer. The new hospice has provided almost daily nursing care and CNA care.

My aunt does NOT own the home. WE do, and hospice has already stated it’s untouchable as a result. We acted as the bank for her and she welched on the mortgage after one payment 22 years ago and my husband was too kind to evict her. The legal paperwork he filed ensured he would get his money back when she passed, and he didn’t need it immediately. I found out yesterday she was telling all my cousins and aunts and uncles that she’s been renting the house from us, has been paying rent all these years, and that my husband is a slumlord because he would not ‘fix up the house’. The house is in very good condition. She lied about her income as well. That jives with a nasty letter she wrote my husband over a decade ago stating that ‘since she stopped paying the mortgage, we now own the house and it’s our responsibility to provide anything she asks for’. When confronted with the letter, she claimed she didn’t remember writing that, and it must’ve been due to the narcotics she needs for pain. The pieces of the puzzle are coming together now and I’m glad most of my relatives didn’t really believe her anyway.

A younger friend of my aunt’s has stepped in to care for her in exchange for her relatively new vehicle. I was helping my aunt because it was important to my mother, given it was her sister. My mother told me yesterday after what she’s found out from her family in recent days, she doesn’t give a raging crap anymore. Starting tomorrow, I’ll be moving to my mother’s and father’s house for a couple weeks to enjoy their company and help, then go home to prepare for my parents move back east this spring. That’s a huge ray of sunshine right there.

Your post makes zero sense. ZERO! If she is that ill, take her to the hospital and they can deal with her and get her into a nursing home. Medicare pays for hospice. Very few places have hospice facilities but if your area does, take her there and put her in it. They pay for more than five days or that gives you time to find her a nursing home bed. This sounds completely fake at this point.

You sound nuts. If you own the house and she's paying rent, in 22 years, it probably has needed repairs. So, if you didn't do those repairs you would be a slum board. Leave the poor woman alone. Drop her off at the hospital and let someone responsible manage her care.

Really? This kind of cleared things up for me. The aunt is not a nice person, OP has been pressured by her mom to take care of this aunt for decades, and OP and her husband have essentially paying the aunt’s mortgage for 20 years with the plan of getting the house when she died. This is why the OP is invested in her aunt’s care, no one else is, and the OP doesn’t want to use her aunt’s home as an asset to pay for her end of life care.

OP could have sold the house at any time. Aunt is financially struggling and OP bought a house knowing the situation. OP wants her money from the house and doesn't care about the aunt or getting the aunt help.

Aunt would qualify for medicare for a month or two for a nursing home after a hospital placement. Otherwise aunt could get long term care medicaid to pay for a nursing home BUT if the home is in Aunt's name, they will put a lien on the house to get their money back. OP doesn't want medicaid to put a lien on what she considers her house/inheritance. That is the issue. So, she's instead denying aunt the care she needs.

Hospice should call 911 and have aunt transported to the hospital and get her care.

Hospice cannot legally or ethically leave an end of life patient alone with those kinds of medications so this makes no sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think OP is being unfairly criticised here.

Some of you seem to think that OP should be making decisions about her aunt's end of life care. Why? She is her aunt's NIECE, not her aunt's daughter.
OP stated from the start that she comes from a large family with 30+ nieces and nephews. Why should OP make all the effort here while other family members can sit back and have a nice life?

OP just happens to be the one who is physically there in person. This doesn't mean she should be burdened with end of life decisions.

OP owns the house and wants the money from the house. That is why she's involved. If aunt goes into a nursing home they will go after the house as that's the only money to pay for it. She should be burdened if she's preventing aunt from going into the hospital/nursing home over money. OP took this on. She can walk away at any time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think OP is being unfairly criticised here.

Some of you seem to think that OP should be making decisions about her aunt's end of life care. Why? She is her aunt's NIECE, not her aunt's daughter.
OP stated from the start that she comes from a large family with 30+ nieces and nephews. Why should OP make all the effort here while other family members can sit back and have a nice life?

OP just happens to be the one who is physically there in person. This doesn't mean she should be burdened with end of life decisions.

Correct.

Also correct: nobody (social workers, doctors, other family members, etc) other than a judge can make the decision to override the aunt's decisions about whether to accept care, and it's nobody's fault that they aren't doing what they can't do. Even if other people think they should, and even if those people feel pushed into a difficult spot. This is just a bad situation.

Having done it, yes, as a relative, you can take someone to a nursing home/hospital and get them care. I did it without POA. We later got guardianship because the nursing home was terrible and threatened to get it for them and didn't have our relatives best interests.

If the situation is that bad, OP can file in court and get guardianships. Very easy to do it yourself if its that bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think OP is being unfairly criticised here.

Some of you seem to think that OP should be making decisions about her aunt's end of life care. Why? She is her aunt's NIECE, not her aunt's daughter.
OP stated from the start that she comes from a large family with 30+ nieces and nephews. Why should OP make all the effort here while other family members can sit back and have a nice life?

OP just happens to be the one who is physically there in person. This doesn't mean she should be burdened with end of life decisions.

I think most people are saying the opposite of that. OP should go. Her aunt should be making her own decisions about her end of life care. If she wants to die at home alone, then she should be able to do that. If she wants to sell her house to pay for end of life care instead of leaving it to OP, then she should be able to do that too. OP and her husband made a stupid financial decision with the house when they didn’t actually foreclose on the house and legally put it in their names when the aunt stopped paying her mortgage and they let her live there. This isn’t the social worker’s fault. At all.

The house does not need to be sold. Medicaid puts a lien on the house. However, aunt is not in a position if she's end of life and that sick to care for herself and that is the issue.

[Anonymous]

As usual when the subject comes up, this thread contains a mix of good information, generic half-truth, and complete disinformation about what happens to a long term care patient’s assets.

Anybody in such a situation should consult a competent elder law attorney, ideally one affiliated with the National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys (NAELA). Every case has its individual circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Yeah. Taxpayers aren’t going to pay for end of life care to make sure that you still get your inheritance. I’m sorry. It sucks to find that out this way. You aren’t the first person to see a house or money that you were counting on disappear into medical bills. I’m glad that you found a charity through this second hospice agency that was a level to help.

I’m the one wit the money. They aren’t. What inheritance?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^And that's not because the social workers or doctors hate you, OP, or want to make your life miserable, or don't care about you, or her. It's because they CAN'T change it, anymore than you can.

Not without a declaration of incompetence and placement.

I suspect they know that she is not at that point yet, even if you might think she is. I suspect that disconnect is at the root of your anger, but they can't fix it.

And as I said, the new hospice is non-profit and thus can take donations. They do so much more and I intend to donate as well from her home proceeds. Why some of you don’t understand there are good and bad hospices and social workers is beyond me, but this is DCUM and there you are! TBH, I find the people in the DC area to be insufferable and plan to leave

This really is very hard. I've been through this three times. Yes, there are good and bad staff everywhere. It is not, however, the fault of a social worker that your aunt doesn't qualify for Medicaid. If her assets are over the line, even by a smidgen, then it is too much. Rather than railing against the person, ask them how you can divest the asset in order for her to qualify. And the reality is, if your aunt really is so close to her final days, there is no way she would qualify for Medicaid on such a short turnaround. In the state where I handled this with my parents, I think the state has up to 45 days to make a determination on an application. I can't remember how long it takes after that for there to be an expenditure of funds.

And non profits are often more flexible. They can't and don't violate Medicaid rules, but sometimes have other resources to help a family. I had family members in three different settings. While the staff at the for profit nursing home where my dad lived were all incredibly nice, the overall services at the nonprofit where my mother was for her last years were much, much better. And my older sibling passed away in an county-run adult residential home for individuals with developmental disabilities where they also had hospice in place services. It is very, very hard to get a bed in a physical hospice.

GL to you, OP.

Not blaming the social worker about Medicaid. It is what it is. I don’t know where you got that idea? Medicaid has look back rules. My aunt will be gone in a few days, nurse said. A younger retired friend who’s done this before has come to help as paid aide. Godsend. The real issue here is my aunt is so stubborn, she’s refused all places in these very last days, insisting on staying home, not really understanding the burden she’s placed on me and the dangerous situation she’s placed herself in.

The other social worker was only interested in taking everything they could financially because she was not eligible for Medicaid - she just missed the cutoff due to a small pension on top of SS. Perhaps blame is a stretch but the staff's hands may be tied on what they can do, especially if this hospice is connected to a corporation. Who chose this hospice for your aunt? So hard to get hospice beds, but my experience has been that the non-profit ones are often better simply because care, not return to shareholders, is what guides their mission.

That is true - the OTHER social worker threatened to take all her assets if I dared even ask for respite care, which MediCARE pays for. As I said, the same hospice blamed me AND my aunt for stealing fentanyl patches the nurse herself put in another box. We found them before her terse, accusatory phone call to me. I’d call it a one-off until she blamed me a SECOND time for medicating my aunt too early, when her CNA clearly did it. I was at my folks (all three in the household can vouch for that), and came back to my aunt’s at the same time the CNA was leaving. I looked immediately in her clearly marked med box to find ALL the PM pills she was supposed to have at 8 PM gone. All the CNA was to do was give my aunt ONE of the breakthrough meds if she asked for it due to pain. I put a chart on the wall daily in plain sight with the AM meds, what they were, and what time they were given. It was not a hard job, and the CNA STILL managed to f it up. It’s clear they were not the right hospice so I changed to another and it’s been so much better.

The cancer center recommended the other hospice to my aunt.

You don't get all this. Medicare does not pay for respite. Medicaid might depending on what state you are in. Medicaid also pays for long term nursing homes BUT they do require you to have limited assests and if you have things like a home, they don't require you to sell it but they put a lien on the home to pay back for the care.

Hospice doesn't run daily care. A family member or private agency does.

If the medication is missing it can be an issue for hospice. They need to stop giving out medication if the caretakers cannot handle it properly.

God, some of you are so clueless and love to start with “you don’t get this’ when indeed it is the poster who doesn’t: Social worker said medicare DOES pay for 5 day inpatient hospice. Then they get sent home. Where the donations kick in is the hospice can use those donations to keep the person longer. The new hospice has provided almost daily nursing care and CNA care.

My aunt does NOT own the home. WE do, and hospice has already stated it’s untouchable as a result. We acted as the bank for her and she welched on the mortgage after one payment 22 years ago and my husband was too kind to evict her. The legal paperwork he filed ensured he would get his money back when she passed, and he didn’t need it immediately. I found out yesterday she was telling all my cousins and aunts and uncles that she’s been renting the house from us, has been paying rent all these years, and that my husband is a slumlord because he would not ‘fix up the house’. The house is in very good condition. She lied about her income as well. That jives with a nasty letter she wrote my husband over a decade ago stating that ‘since she stopped paying the mortgage, we now own the house and it’s our responsibility to provide anything she asks for’. When confronted with the letter, she claimed she didn’t remember writing that, and it must’ve been due to the narcotics she needs for pain. The pieces of the puzzle are coming together now and I’m glad most of my relatives didn’t really believe her anyway.

A younger friend of my aunt’s has stepped in to care for her in exchange for her relatively new vehicle. I was helping my aunt because it was important to my mother, given it was her sister. My mother told me yesterday after what she’s found out from her family in recent days, she doesn’t give a raging crap anymore. Starting tomorrow, I’ll be moving to my mother’s and father’s house for a couple weeks to enjoy their company and help, then go home to prepare for my parents move back east this spring. That’s a huge ray of sunshine right there.

Your post makes zero sense. ZERO! If she is that ill, take her to the hospital and they can deal with her and get her into a nursing home. Medicare pays for hospice. Very few places have hospice facilities but if your area does, take her there and put her in it. They pay for more than five days or that gives you time to find her a nursing home bed. This sounds completely fake at this point.

You sound nuts. If you own the house and she's paying rent, in 22 years, it probably has needed repairs. So, if you didn't do those repairs you would be a slum board. Leave the poor woman alone. Drop her off at the hospital and let someone responsible manage her care.

Really? This kind of cleared things up for me. The aunt is not a nice person, OP has been pressured by her mom to take care of this aunt for decades, and OP and her husband have essentially paying the aunt’s mortgage for 20 years with the plan of getting the house when she died. This is why the OP is invested in her aunt’s care, no one else is, and the OP doesn’t want to use her aunt’s home as an asset to pay for her end of life care.

We have not been “paying the mortgage”. We are the mortgager, i.e. the bank. She welched on the mortgage and my husband did not evict her out of kindness. She’s told everyone that WE own the house and SHE has paid us rent all these years. She hasn’t. I came here because my mother had a heart attack and was helping my aunt physically get to radiation. She took a huge turn for the worse and is now dying, bedridden, of sound mind, and refusing hospital care. There are no hospice beds available right now and she, ironically, makes too much money in pension and social security to qualify for Medicaid. In other words, she could have paid the mortgage to my husband all these years and deliberately lied that her income had been reduced, that her pension had run out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think OP is being unfairly criticised here.

Some of you seem to think that OP should be making decisions about her aunt's end of life care. Why? She is her aunt's NIECE, not her aunt's daughter.
OP stated from the start that she comes from a large family with 30+ nieces and nephews. Why should OP make all the effort here while other family members can sit back and have a nice life?

OP just happens to be the one who is physically there in person. This doesn't mean she should be burdened with end of life decisions.

This is correct. Thank you. Add to this, that my aunt gave another niece medical power of attorney and a friend power of attorney. I have no legal power at all. All I can do is ensure she doesn’t die in her own waste, in dire pain, since there is no hospice bed. I am grateful for the very caring social worker, very caring hospice nurse/aids/clergy, and a very caring friend who my aunt sometimes treated like garbage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think OP is being unfairly criticised here.

Some of you seem to think that OP should be making decisions about her aunt's end of life care. Why? She is her aunt's NIECE, not her aunt's daughter.
OP stated from the start that she comes from a large family with 30+ nieces and nephews. Why should OP make all the effort here while other family members can sit back and have a nice life?

OP just happens to be the one who is physically there in person. This doesn't mean she should be burdened with end of life decisions.

I think most people are saying the opposite of that. OP should go. Her aunt should be making her own decisions about her end of life care. If she wants to die at home alone, then she should be able to do that. If she wants to sell her house to pay for end of life care instead of leaving it to OP, then she should be able to do that too. OP and her husband made a stupid financial decision with the house when they didn’t actually foreclose on the house and legally put it in their names when the aunt stopped paying her mortgage and they let her live there. This isn’t the social worker’s fault. At all.

I agree, my husband should have foreclosed on her. If my aunt tries to sell the house now, she wouldn’t get a cent from it as the mortgage+interest owed = approximately the cost of the house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think OP is being unfairly criticised here.

Some of you seem to think that OP should be making decisions about her aunt's end of life care. Why? She is her aunt's NIECE, not her aunt's daughter.
OP stated from the start that she comes from a large family with 30+ nieces and nephews. Why should OP make all the effort here while other family members can sit back and have a nice life?

OP just happens to be the one who is physically there in person. This doesn't mean she should be burdened with end of life decisions.

I think most people are saying the opposite of that. OP should go. Her aunt should be making her own decisions about her end of life care. If she wants to die at home alone, then she should be able to do that. If she wants to sell her house to pay for end of life care instead of leaving it to OP, then she should be able to do that too. OP and her husband made a stupid financial decision with the house when they didn’t actually foreclose on the house and legally put it in their names when the aunt stopped paying her mortgage and they let her live there. This isn’t the social worker’s fault. At all.

The house does not need to be sold. Medicaid puts a lien on the house. However, aunt is not in a position if she's end of life and that sick to care for herself and that is the issue.

She
Doesn’t
Qualify
For
Medicaid

Too much income.