Admissions to change at Thomas Jefferson High, and others

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

I don't call it prepping. I call it good parenting. Do you think setting a schedule and making sure your kids do their homework and go to bed on time prepping? There are plenty of parents who don't do this, buy their kids phones in elementary and let them have unlimited access. You have to decide what's important in your house.

There is a huge difference with making sure your child does their homework, eats well, and goes to bed on time and sending your kid for advanced tutoring in Math so that they can take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade. I would argue the same about travel sports as well. Part of the reason these kids are bored in school is because their parents started sending them to tutoring when they were 4 or 5. I have no doubt that these kids would be doing just fine in math without that tutoring. And I suspect they would do just fine in life if they took Algebra in 8th Grade. You can encourage a kids interest without attempting to promote them ahead of their classmates.

And while I fully believe that their are kids who love math, DS is one of them, I don't really buy that AoPS is in business because there are soooo many kids who really want to do extra math during the week or on the weekends. And I sure as heck know that the number of NNAT, CogAT, and TJ Prep centers are not there because kindergarteners and first graders are asking their parents to study for a test. I suspect that the same is true for the kids in the TJ programs. So much of these programs are driven by parents who seem to think that it is important that their kids do their homework, eat well, go to bed on time, and attending extra tutoring to get ahead in subject materials.

Racist and envious

That PP doesn't seem to understand that in some cultures, education and high stakes exams are viewed as a way to a prosperous future and parents view it as their duty to provide every possible advantage to their kids. Likewise kids are taught that they owe it to their family to succeed so that they can in turn support their parents in old age.

good for them, there is no reason for a public school system to cater to that expectation

Agree. And high school sports teams should also be based on lottery.

The whole notion of arbitrary tryouts that skew towards athletes that have been prepped is unjust and racist.

All kids deserve the chance to play on the teams and with equal playing time. The diversity of the team will only make the team better.

That’s a great idea. That will help provide opportunities in sports that currently skew white UMC. Crew. LAX. Golf. Tennis. Etc.

uh, no . more like basketball, football

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Once again, calling out the crowd that seems fine with the gross under-representation of Black and Hispanic/FARMS kids in AAP overall, and put all the focus on TJ.

If TJ admissions is racist, so is AAP (test scores, parent appeals, GBRS, outside private testing, parent-requested principal placement in Level IV) - why are you not suggesting that AAP be "closed" "thrown out" or an "embarrassment to FCPS." Sure sounds like you are interested in protecting the institution that your child benefits from but not the one they can't get into...

Note that the NAACP meeting with Dr. Braband was not all about TJ - it was about school discipline, PARENT APPEALS for AAP, test scores, etc. You folks are the ones focused only on one symptom of the systemic racism in FCPS - TJ - but not the people in charge, luckily.

look it's parenting. It is not the job of the government to get more black and hispanic farms families to read to their children more and engage with them more from 0-3

Heck it starts even before that with nutrition and care during pregnancy

Folks this is why you will never close the achievement gap. Move on die on another hill

And this is why we will continue to have protests. Nasty racists who just don’t get it. Go back to your hole.

facts aren't racist feel free to keep on protesting but ignoring reality is just dumb.

It’s disgusting that you try to blame inequality on “bad parenting”.

Seems like your own parents failed, big time.

last one what's stopping a poor person from reading to their kid or choosing a better diet.... you can't answer the question its bad parenting that causes the initial gap from 0-3 period. You can pour all the money you want (We have been doing it for what over 50 years now) it won't solve that initial gap.

A poor parent could have dropped out of high school, dropping out of school is something cyclical and that is a cycle that is hard to break. The lack of education on the parents part means that the parent might not know that it is important to read to their child. The parent probably didn't have anyone read to them as a kid so they might not have a role model. The poor parent might not have the ability to buy books. Or know that they can get free books for Dolly Patton. Or how to get a library card. The poor parent might be working shifts that make it hard to read to their child. The poor parent might not be able to read. The poor parent might not have the ability to help their child with their school work. The poor parent might not be able to follow up and meet with Teachers because of work schedule.

There is a massively long list of systemic and structural causes of cyclical poverty. Families that are less well off but able to immigrate to the US are coming with a different set of skills and cultural backgrounds that lead to a different set of motivations. They have not been directly impacted by the systemic issues that people who live in poverty in the US have to deal with. These same issues exist in rural areas as well as urban areas. Just look at some of the issues of the white poor in rural parts of the country.

What you're saying is a correct observation, but so what? It's not ones job to fix other people's kids. There is so much you can do to help as a Good Samaritan, but ultimately under any social system you are in charge of your own kids, and you'd not be doing your job as a parent if you didn't do your best to help your kids.

Also, you're being very unfair to immigrants. You want their skill, experience and zeal, but you want to deprive them of the opportunity to actually make something better for their next generation. So you want to reward their hard work when it suits you, but as soon as their hard work creates an obstacle for your social agenda, you want to reprimand them by removing the opportunity that they can earn. So, you basically want slaves, good while they aren't a real threat to your social justice lifestyle, but not good and worthy when they achieve something that shakes you off your throne.

Oh good. More people comparing themselves to slaves. That'll do the trick.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I vote for closing TJ.

Why? Not saying I disagree, but I do think there should be more than one TJ type school. If FCPS didn't suck so badly, we wouldn't need TJ, frankly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know a handful (maybe two) of both Asians and also non Asians who refused TJ because 1.) they applied to see if they could get in (they did) and 2.) TJ was ultimately "too Asian" for them, and they said as much.

They also stated that they were afraid of the cheating going on at the school. Not sure if there is or not, but that is the perception - I think some parents believe if kids use all that prep to get in, they did not get in on their own merits, so cheating is rampant.

I don't think this perception, however untrue, is uncommon.

There is a significant cheating problem at TJ, and its goal is to create imbalances in the college admissions process. It's very sophisticated, under-reported, and under-punished when it's discovered. There are a few students for whom the restorative justice process is really positive and productive, but for many, it's not something they even fear.

And - contrary to common perception - it's not just the Asian students who do it. This is another one of those things that, if you're in the building for any length of time, you just understand as fact because the kids talk about it fairly openly.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Pigeonholing the idea of "merit" as being entirely measurable by exam scores and GPA is just not within the realm of reality.

This is a great example of a poster who feels free to comment without knowing anything. The current application process is not just exam scores and GPA. It includes teacher recs.

My half asian kids at TJ never prepped (but did visit libraries, museums and were read to). People don’t care and make sweeping judgments about Asians and prep culture and denigrate students there. It’s horrendous that people are so comfortable with racism towards Asian Americans. When TJ was mostly white, no one minded. Same with elite colleges. Langley and McLean are mostly white but no one is talking about redistricting them.

Aren’t the white kids all prepping too?

Interest among white families has plummeted in recent years. TJ sees less than half of the white applicants year-over-year than they did 6-8 years ago. Some white families prep too, but there are much fewer of them in the application process.

+1

Why isn't TJ representative of the County it serves? Why shouldn't it be?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pigeonholing the idea of "merit" as being entirely measurable by exam scores and GPA is just not within the realm of reality.

This is a great example of a poster who feels free to comment without knowing anything. The current application process is not just exam scores and GPA. It includes teacher recs.

My half asian kids at TJ never prepped (but did visit libraries, museums and were read to). People don’t care and make sweeping judgments about Asians and prep culture and denigrate students there. It’s horrendous that people are so comfortable with racism towards Asian Americans. When TJ was mostly white, no one minded. Same with elite colleges. Langley and McLean are mostly white but no one is talking about redistricting them.

Aren’t the white kids all prepping too?

Interest among white families has plummeted in recent years. TJ sees less than half of the white applicants year-over-year than they did 6-8 years ago. Some white families prep too, but there are much fewer of them in the application process.

+1

Why isn't TJ representative of the County it serves? Why shouldn't it be?

Asian American here living in McLean. I find many elite whites send their children to private schools. I know in our neighborhood (Langley), it feels like half of the kids in our neighborhood goes to private. Our kids are still young. I have no interest in sending my children to TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pigeonholing the idea of "merit" as being entirely measurable by exam scores and GPA is just not within the realm of reality.

This is a great example of a poster who feels free to comment without knowing anything. The current application process is not just exam scores and GPA. It includes teacher recs.

My half asian kids at TJ never prepped (but did visit libraries, museums and were read to). People don’t care and make sweeping judgments about Asians and prep culture and denigrate students there. It’s horrendous that people are so comfortable with racism towards Asian Americans. When TJ was mostly white, no one minded. Same with elite colleges. Langley and McLean are mostly white but no one is talking about redistricting them.

Aren’t the white kids all prepping too?

Interest among white families has plummeted in recent years. TJ sees less than half of the white applicants year-over-year than they did 6-8 years ago. Some white families prep too, but there are much fewer of them in the application process.

+1

Why isn't TJ representative of the County it serves? Why shouldn't it be?

Asian American here living in McLean. I find many elite whites send their children to private schools. I know in our neighborhood (Langley), it feels like half of the kids in our neighborhood goes to private. Our kids are still young. I have no interest in sending my children to TJ.

What private schools do they attend? Do they discuss their reasons for lack of interest in TJ with you/do you have any insight to share into why you are not interested in it?

[Anonymous]

DP and going to be completely open and frank here

STEM is not the end all be all for most elites

Very few STEM people actually make it into the top 1%

Business, Law, Finance, even Silicon Valley tech Mgmt side have very little to do with STEM

If my kid had an interest in STEM we would think about it but regardless getting my child into Advanced Algebra by 7th is not the goal for anyone in my circles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pigeonholing the idea of "merit" as being entirely measurable by exam scores and GPA is just not within the realm of reality.

This is a great example of a poster who feels free to comment without knowing anything. The current application process is not just exam scores and GPA. It includes teacher recs.

My half asian kids at TJ never prepped (but did visit libraries, museums and were read to). People don’t care and make sweeping judgments about Asians and prep culture and denigrate students there. It’s horrendous that people are so comfortable with racism towards Asian Americans. When TJ was mostly white, no one minded. Same with elite colleges. Langley and McLean are mostly white but no one is talking about redistricting them.

Aren’t the white kids all prepping too?

Interest among white families has plummeted in recent years. TJ sees less than half of the white applicants year-over-year than they did 6-8 years ago. Some white families prep too, but there are much fewer of them in the application process.

+1

Why isn't TJ representative of the County it serves? Why shouldn't it be?

Asian American here living in McLean. I find many elite whites send their children to private schools. I know in our neighborhood (Langley), it feels like half of the kids in our neighborhood goes to private. Our kids are still young. I have no interest in sending my children to TJ.

What private schools do they attend? Do they discuss their reasons for lack of interest in TJ with you/do you have any insight to share into why you are not interested in it?

In our immediate neighborhood, Potomac, Landon, Holton Arms, Sidwell and St Albans seem to be popular. Potomac is most popular since it is in McLean. They want elite college acceptances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DP and going to be completely open and frank here

STEM is not the end all be all for most elites

Very few STEM people actually make it into the top 1%

Business, Law, Finance, even Silicon Valley tech Mgmt side have very little to do with STEM

If my kid had an interest in STEM we would think about it but regardless getting my child into Advanced Algebra by 7th is not the goal for anyone in my circles.

Same. Maybe if he’s a natural math/science genius, but not wasting my time trying to fit our kid into that mold. He’ll succeed without TJ. I really don’t get it.

[Anonymous]

People go into STEM because they love it. Not to get into the top 1%. Sheesh.

[Anonymous]

Asians discrimination is part of the liberal (fcps) way

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we can’t make access to TJ fair then we should shut it down. Fix it or lose it altogether.

better make access to ivies fair, too

And redistrict all FCPS schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People go into STEM because they love it. Not to get into the top 1%. Sheesh.

Going to be completely frank again here

Many Asians view STEM as the path to success when generally white Americans generally know those folks never really make it to the top. People that manage these folks make much more and generally have fewer STEM skills not to mention the other career fields I mentioned that have nothing to do with STEM

you are kidding yourself if you think many of these kids actually have an interest in STEM, much like athletics and white folks this "interest" is often pushed on kids in elementary school if not sooner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DP and going to be completely open and frank here

STEM is not the end all be all for most elites

Very few STEM people actually make it into the top 1%

Business, Law, Finance, even Silicon Valley tech Mgmt side have very little to do with STEM

If my kid had an interest in STEM we would think about it but regardless getting my child into Advanced Algebra by 7th is not the goal for anyone in my circles.

Very few STEM people actually make it into the top 1% : Not true actually. Many Indians w/ STEM background are making it to the C-Suites of large companies.

Business, Law, Finance, even Silicon Valley tech Mgmt side have very little to do with STEM :

Many Business majors either double major w/ CS or at least minor in CS these days, patent law/patent litigation offers more job opportunities for law grads w/ STEM undergrad degrees than law grads w/ non-STEM undergrad degrees and pay is often more for those w/ STEM undergrads, many non-STEM kids are getting booted out from the BB IBs and "Quants" and "Strats" are replacing many analysts/associates/traders in the IBDs and S&Ts of the major IBs and, not even worth my time to rebut the false argument regarding the Silicon Valley positions.