Admissions to change at Thomas Jefferson High, and others

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we can’t make access to TJ fair then we should shut it down. Fix it or lose it altogether.

You forgot to explain your definition of 'fair.' Is it scoring a certain amount on a test? Scoring a certain amount on a test plus having an Ivy League quality extra-curricular resume in middle school (which is kind of what the current standard is)? Accurately representing the racial and economic make-up of the county? Not including students from Prince William, Arlington, Faquier, and Loudon? Including them?

the extra-curricular resume is a reflection of the parent not the kid at that age - unless your saying admission should reflect a parent's drive and resources

Isn't the kid that actually successfully completed the extracurriculars? The parents could afford the opportunities, but the kid is the one who succeeded at them. If you want interesting kids, because academics alone won't give you a 'well rounded' choice, then paid opportunities is what you get.

[Anonymous]

Not so sure I understand the focus on "merit based". It's a school, right? That's an institution to improve your "merits"?

This is not like a job where sure, you want the best person for the job.

[Anonymous]

If the top students at every middle school aren’t prepared for TJ, that seems like an FCPS instructional problem to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we can’t make access to TJ fair then we should shut it down. Fix it or lose it altogether.

You forgot to explain your definition of 'fair.' Is it scoring a certain amount on a test? Scoring a certain amount on a test plus having an Ivy League quality extra-curricular resume in middle school (which is kind of what the current standard is)? Accurately representing the racial and economic make-up of the county? Not including students from Prince William, Arlington, Faquier, and Loudon? Including them?

the extra-curricular resume is a reflection of the parent not the kid at that age - unless your saying admission should reflect a parent's drive and resources

Isn't the kid that actually successfully completed the extracurriculars? The parents could afford the opportunities, but the kid is the one who succeeded at them. If you want interesting kids, because academics alone won't give you a 'well rounded' choice, then paid opportunities is what you get.

the parent writes the check- most 5th and 6th grades aren't accomplishing that on their own

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

[Anonymous]

Then the county should Iq test every child from a low SES family and identify those that would benefit from Saturday schools for enrichment that’s not provided to the at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.


Actually the biggest advantage your child had was a parent that knew FCPS and AAP. We are not from the area and that was our biggest disadvantage - we'd never heard of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

This is all really the point. PP is spot on.

[Anonymous]

Honest question, do you think that MIT is not doing fair admissions? Something like 41% Asian, 14% Latino and 10% black. They take a wholistic approach to admissions and, frankly it works. They know Asians test prep so they pit Asians vs Asians. They also try to filter out dangerous profiles - aka not well-rounded students that might commit suicide under pressure. (If you've read the stories...people lighting themselves on fire, jumping off bridges and buildings) you'd understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

No. That’s “dripping with racism”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

This is all really the point. PP is spot on.

Not really.

This shows that home life matters and county cannot parent kids.

What they can do is offer test prep and enrichment to all kids. Saturday schools for low SES students, equal access to quality math programming, better qualified teachers, IQ tests to all kids to identify hidden talent, early preschool programs.

That is the job of county education systems, not parenting.

[Anonymous]

OP, thanks for posting. TJ parent here who came from Title I ES and MS so very interested.

Not sure I think the lottery after the first step test will solve the problem, but interesting idea. I liked the middle school idea as I thought there were other qualified applicants at my Title I MS who would have thrived at TJ.

The existence of feeder schools (which of course reflect the SES of applicants) is my interest - I am a proponent of offering lottery slots to FARMS kids to attend the ES and MS that send the majority of kids to TJ so those kids can immerse themselves in schools designed to prepare kids for the rigors of TJ. And please don't come at me with the busing argument t- I met family after family at Title I schools who would be perfectly willing to put their child on a longer bus ride to get them to a better school.

For others, here is the article:

https://wtop.com/education/2020/08/elite-public-schools-in-virginia-elsewhere-seek-diversity/

[Anonymous]

It is not just parenting, not every parent has access to the same level of resources and that is something that the public school system has to take into consideration. Not every parent has the same level of knowledge or ability to help their kids. Not every parent can be there to take their kids for tutoring, regardless of who is paying for it. The parents in low income families are working two jobs and might not be able to get their kids to Saturday school.

There is no easy solution but the idea that merit is what is driving admission and not opportunities that benefit certain groups of people more then others is false. The heart of the discussion regarding systemic racism is the lack of access to opportunities due to institutionalized rules that were written to benefit specific groups of people while harming others and how those rules, many developed a lot time ago and some even have been abolished, continue to cause harm today.

So the merit argument doesn't work because there are inherent inequities in education that benefit some while hindering others.

And I promise you that there will be people who cry bloody murder if Title 1 schools are offered Saturday school while it is not offered at others. They will complain that it only helps a few and that their tax dollars should mean that they have the same opportunity and that equity should not benefit only the poor.

AAP needs to be revised. each school should have it's own program and the top 10% of the kids from each school should be accepted into AAP. Kids in Level III should go for their Level III lessons in the AAP classroom, that will increase the numbers and provide a better quality program across the board. It would also help the advanced kids in all schools instead of helping the kids whose parents know the rules and how to game the system.

Maybe the Centers can be used for gifted kids when they are identified. Use the WISC for kids who are performing above grade level in AAP and build a few classes of the truly advanced kids at the Center schools. FCPS provides the WISC and only for kids in local AAP classes who are above grade level.

That would be a step in the right direction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

TBH, what “merit” does a thirteen year old have? Most have done essentially nothing on their own. Their parents help them with the math. How many drive themselves to extracurriculars? How many TJ applicants paid their own application fee? Set a routine themselves? It’s a high school for godsake, not a PHD program. I’d rather a kid flounder at first in high school and then be prepared for college than flounder when it really matters. Stop taking yourselves so seriously. Sorry, this idea of *applying* to a PUBLIC high school is so foreign to me I can’t wrap my head around it. There are no magnet schools in my home county.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we can’t make access to TJ fair then we should shut it down. Fix it or lose it altogether.

You forgot to explain your definition of 'fair.' Is it scoring a certain amount on a test? Scoring a certain amount on a test plus having an Ivy League quality extra-curricular resume in middle school (which is kind of what the current standard is)? Accurately representing the racial and economic make-up of the county? Not including students from Prince William, Arlington, Faquier, and Loudon? Including them?

TJ is not fairly accessible to all students in FCPS (and the case can be made for surrounded school districts). If it were fairly accessible, the enrolled TJ student population demographics would be more representative of the FCPS student population demographics.

Shut it down if we can't fix it.