CogAT/Pool letter arrived

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why one needs to take NNAT2? Utter waste of tax payers money!! Everything said here is parents speculation! For every argument there is exactly opposite example where AAP admission is granted!

NNAT is less culturally biased and is intended to detect gifted children who are not native English speakers.

Which means that a high/higher NNAT than Cogat is still in pool.

So, to go back to how the tests are weighted, it ends up being something like this (from what I can gather from the threads):

High NNAT, high Cogat, high GBRS - in pool
High NNAT, low-ish Cogat, high GBRS - in pool
High NNAT, low-ish Cogat, low GBRS - Wisc/Appeal
Low NNAT, HIGH Cogat, high GBRS - likely in pool/appeal
Low NNAT, high cogat, low GBRS - appeal
Low NNAT, low cogat, high GBRS - WISC appeal

In all cases, the "weight" of the test is not mathematical. It's more like a decision tree.

If the child's NNAT is high, the decision is more likely that they will get in. If the child's NNAT is low, the Cogat has to be extremely high to compensate for the low NNAT, And even then, if you have a high cogat and a low GBRS, it raises red flags because it is more likely that the parents prepped.

The NNAT is really to measure intangibles early on in the testing round. The COGAT confirms. The GBRS is not testing but behavior based. This is super important-- the teachers are analyzing if your kid will be able to do the work involved in AAP. So even if your child is shy - if they are not self-starters in individual activities, they will struggle in AAP, and that's why a high GBRS helps. It's not whether or not you kid is smart, it's whether or not your kid can do things on their own.

And for the poster ranting about NNAT and taxpayer dollars: IMHO, having the NNAT is far less costly to our society than having a gifted student fall through the cracks due to losing the birth lottery.

Correct! This is spot on!

+1.

Agree with the concept, but a minor nitpick - shouldn't the possible outcomes of the tree be accepted (or not) rather than in-pool? "In pool" just means they are sent for screening, and is usually determined by a very cut-and-dried cutoff on the NNAT and/or Cogat. GBRS doesn't affect whether you are in pool or not, but will affect whether the screened student (in pool or parent-referred) is found eligible for Level IV.

[Anonymous]

22182, received in CoGAT and pool letter in mail today - 137/136 on NNAT/CoGAT. Prepared the referral, so going to send it anyways.

[Anonymous]

Shrevewood COGAT scores finally came back in folders today. We have a perfectly normal and average Fairfax County child at 110.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Received CogAt score today, zip 22015. Ughh, not in pool by a long shot. NNAT was not good either. I am planning to parent refer because I believe AAP is a good fit. Should I look into getting a WISC? I have no idea what GBRS scores have been in previous years but NNAT/CogAt are not going to cut it Has anyone waited and referred in a later grade?

HI How do you know you are not in the pool. 22015 zip code too and COgAT score was 138.

Congrats you should be in pool!

132 on either CogAt OR NNAT is the benchmark to be in pool this year. DC's scores were lower than that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Received CogAt score today, zip 22015. Ughh, not in pool by a long shot. NNAT was not good either. I am planning to parent refer because I believe AAP is a good fit. Should I look into getting a WISC? I have no idea what GBRS scores have been in previous years but NNAT/CogAt are not going to cut it Has anyone waited and referred in a later grade?

HI How do you know you are not in the pool. 22015 zip code too and COgAT score was 138.

Congrats you should be in pool!

132 on either CogAt OR NNAT is the benchmark to be in pool this year. DC's scores were lower than that.

So I got ours! Can anyone advise which are her scores on the CoGat paper? It’s so confusing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why one needs to take NNAT2? Utter waste of tax payers money!! Everything said here is parents speculation! For every argument there is exactly opposite example where AAP admission is granted!

NNAT is less culturally biased and is intended to detect gifted children who are not native English speakers.

Which means that a high/higher NNAT than Cogat is still in pool.

So, to go back to how the tests are weighted, it ends up being something like this (from what I can gather from the threads):

High NNAT, high Cogat, high GBRS - in pool
High NNAT, low-ish Cogat, high GBRS - in pool
High NNAT, low-ish Cogat, low GBRS - Wisc/Appeal
Low NNAT, HIGH Cogat, high GBRS - likely in pool/appeal
Low NNAT, high cogat, low GBRS - appeal
Low NNAT, low cogat, high GBRS - WISC appeal

In all cases, the "weight" of the test is not mathematical. It's more like a decision tree.

If the child's NNAT is high, the decision is more likely that they will get in. If the child's NNAT is low, the Cogat has to be extremely high to compensate for the low NNAT, And even then, if you have a high cogat and a low GBRS, it raises red flags because it is more likely that the parents prepped.

The NNAT is really to measure intangibles early on in the testing round. The COGAT confirms. The GBRS is not testing but behavior based. This is super important-- the teachers are analyzing if your kid will be able to do the work involved in AAP. So even if your child is shy - if they are not self-starters in individual activities, they will struggle in AAP, and that's why a high GBRS helps. It's not whether or not you kid is smart, it's whether or not your kid can do things on their own.

And for the poster ranting about NNAT and taxpayer dollars: IMHO, having the NNAT is far less costly to our society than having a gifted student fall through the cracks due to losing the birth lottery.

Correct! This is spot on!

+1.

Agree with the concept, but a minor nitpick - shouldn't the possible outcomes of the tree be accepted (or not) rather than in-pool? "In pool" just means they are sent for screening, and is usually determined by a very cut-and-dried cutoff on the NNAT and/or Cogat. GBRS doesn't affect whether you are in pool or not, but will affect whether the screened student (in pool or parent-referred) is found eligible for Level IV.

OP of the original post: I was posting this for in-pool data as this is an in-pool thread. Whileas, the acceptance/appeal process has a totally different score range and metrics-- including parent referrals and WISC scores.

For those of you who have torn my above analysis over and over again, I think that maybe I should have clarified, it's from the 2017 thread:

High NNAT (above 132), high Cogat (>132), high GBRS - in pool = accepted (Data: N/C/G 145//136/15 = in)
High NNAT, OK Cogat (125-132), high GBRS - in pool, high chance for acceptance, very little data to confirm or deny this but the next point indicates something to it.
High NNAT, OK Cogat, low GBRS <12 - maybe in pool, but definitely prepare referral, get Wisc and Appeal (Data example: N/C/G/W = 133/119/10/133 = in)
OK NNAT (110-130), HIGH Cogat, high GBRS - Most likely in pool, but sometimes you need to refer/appeal = tends to get in.
OK NNAT, high cogat, low GBRS - make referral, prepare to appeal, maybe with a WISC on a case by case basis
OK NNAT, OK cogat, high GBRS - You need to refer, and you will most likely need a WISC and appeal

For those of you who argue that I haven't read the GBRS- I have. My kids have scored 16/16 every time- which amazes me because they come home and just want to play video games and stream something to watch. (They measure the ability to learn/memory/knowledge - application of knowledge with reasoning skills/strategies - Creative thinking/curiousity/humor - Motivation to succeed - leadership/independency in work and meets academic challenges/confidence. This is behavior and the ability to do the work independently). It's not something you can prep for. It's a behavior thing in class, which is different from home: whether or not they can apply knowledge and critical thinking and whether or not they can just sit down and do the work. For those of you who had different experiences with the GBRS: the teachers deal with a lot of kids every day and can tell and have told me so. And I've even heard that parents who complain about their kid's GBRS scores to teachers tend to NOT get in because they exhibit the behavior as parents that they don't want in the program because they have read the rating scale and don't see to comprehend the metrics therein.

As for the tree being a definitive answer: I wish I had a good answer for this. But overall score is definitely not it. The immediate in-pool and acceptance data shows extremely high scores overall. I have to wonder if some of the lower scores were referral packages and the appeal data seems to confirm this. But for those of you who were arguing that the NNAT isn't weighed as evenly- the data from the appeals indicates that a substantial NNAT/WISC score is indicative of entrance. You can have a high NNAT, low GBRS and low COGAT, and still get in if the WISC confirms the high NNAT.

For those of you still wondering what to do: submit your parent packages tomorrow. (referral, questionnaire, some kind of work). It appears that the more involved you are leads to a higher chance of getting in overall.

Hope that helps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s more than one pro nnat poster. R u the only pro cogat poster??

Real life situations:
Boy got a 128 cogat, 108 nnat, 118 WISC and got into aap. Kid thinks he’s brilliant, but he’s just average and WISC confirms this. Would do just fine in general education. Really doesn’t belong in aap. A solid kid with strengths in math but not superior in anything!

Girl got a 155 nnat, 142 cogat, 145 WISC. Kid doesn’t think she’s brilliant. Just wants to do the best she can. Is in aap.

Boy got a 138 nnat, 118 cogat. Needed to appeal. WISC showed add inattentive. GAI 145 fsiq 120 because of low processing speed. In aap.

The best indicator of “needing” aap is the WISC. An average WISC without 2E is not a kid who needs aap. But aap is full of solidly average/above average kids. Only a handful of actual superior or genuis kids.

I don't have a dog in this fight this year (my oldest kid got in last year) and my younger ones are still early elementary, but the bolded puzzles me because there were parents last year posting whose kids had scores higher than this and they didn't get in on appeal. Was this kid accepted first round or did you have to appeal? Do you know what the GBRS was?

My friend appealed for her son. He really doesn't have great scores so I'm not sure why he got in. AAP is stuffed with lots of average kids, tbh

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:22182, received in CoGAT and pool letter in mail today - 137/136 on NNAT/CoGAT. Prepared the referral, so going to send it anyways.

Congrats! Just curious, did you prep your kid? Looks like these scores are super high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
For those of you who have torn my above analysis over and over again, I think that maybe I should have clarified, it's from the 2017 thread:

High NNAT (above 132), high Cogat (>132), high GBRS - in pool = accepted (Data: N/C/G 145//136/15 = in)
High NNAT, OK Cogat (125-132), high GBRS - in pool, high chance for acceptance, very little data to confirm or deny this but the next point indicates something to it.
High NNAT, OK Cogat, low GBRS <12 - maybe in pool, but definitely prepare referral, get Wisc and Appeal (Data example: N/C/G/W = 133/119/10/133 = in)
OK NNAT (110-130), HIGH Cogat, high GBRS - Most likely in pool, but sometimes you need to refer/appeal = tends to get in.
OK NNAT, high cogat, low GBRS - make referral, prepare to appeal, maybe with a WISC on a case by case basis
OK NNAT, OK cogat, high GBRS - You need to refer, and you will most likely need a WISC and appeal

Your in-pool and out of pool determinations aren't correct. 132+ NNAT is in-pool. 132+ CogAT composite is in pool. Period. High CogAT (132+) is in pool and does not need to refer. GBRS has nothing at all to do with the pool. High NNAT and very low CogAT is still in pool, as is high CogAT and very low NNAT.

From the FCPS AAP website:
The grade 2 Screening Pool has been set for Spring 2018 screening. The grade 2 Screening Pool will include students scoring a 132 composite score on the Cognitive Abilities Test (CogAT) and/or a 132 on the Naglieri Nonverbal Ability Test (NNAT). Parents/guardians of pool qualifying students will be notified by the student's school."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: But for those of you who were arguing that the NNAT isn't weighed as evenly- the data from the appeals indicates that a substantial NNAT/WISC score is indicative of entrance. You can have a high NNAT, low GBRS and low COGAT, and still get in if the WISC confirms the high NNAT.

A substantial WISC alone is indicative of entrance. There's nothing at all special about a WISC/NNAT pairing. The WISC more or less overwrites the NNAT and CogAT, as it should since it's an IQ test and not a screener. The reason you aren't seeing a lot of high CogATs in the appeals threads is that most of the high CogATs get in first round and don't need a WISC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
For those of you who have torn my above analysis over and over again, I think that maybe I should have clarified, it's from the 2017 thread:

High NNAT (above 132), high Cogat (>132), high GBRS - in pool = accepted (Data: N/C/G 145//136/15 = in)
High NNAT, OK Cogat (125-132), high GBRS - in pool, high chance for acceptance, very little data to confirm or deny this but the next point indicates something to it.
High NNAT, OK Cogat, low GBRS <12 - maybe in pool, but definitely prepare referral, get Wisc and Appeal (Data example: N/C/G/W = 133/119/10/133 = in)
OK NNAT (110-130), HIGH Cogat, high GBRS - Most likely in pool, but sometimes you need to refer/appeal = tends to get in.
OK NNAT, high cogat, low GBRS - make referral, prepare to appeal, maybe with a WISC on a case by case basis
OK NNAT, OK cogat, high GBRS - You need to refer, and you will most likely need a WISC and appeal

Your in-pool and out of pool determinations aren't correct. 132+ NNAT is in-pool. 132+ CogAT composite is in pool. Period. High CogAT (132+) is in pool and does not need to refer. GBRS has nothing at all to do with the pool. High NNAT and very low CogAT is still in pool, as is high CogAT and very low NNAT.

From the FCPS AAP website:
The grade 2 Screening Pool has been set for Spring 2018 screening. The grade 2 Screening Pool will include students scoring a 132 composite score on the Cognitive Abilities Test (CogAT) and/or a 132 on the Naglieri Nonverbal Ability Test (NNAT). Parents/guardians of pool qualifying students will be notified by the student's school."

What chances does my DC have to get into the program with NNAT2 135 and CoGat 119? Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Even with flipped numbers this one is a crap shoot. But i'd guess in on 1st round due to high NNAT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
What chances does my DC have to get into the program with NNAT2 135 and CoGat 119? Thanks!

It really depends on the GBRS and school-supplied work samples. What is the breakdown of the CogAT scores? The committee sees individual SAS scores for Verbal, Quantitative, and Nonverbal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have to agree with the "decision tree" idea in terms of pool/vs. not in pool. FWIW: those of us who had high NNATs (>99%), our children were in-pool from first grade on, had earlier and more complex GBRS forms (from what I can tell from my other mom friends) and had a lot more pull outs.

Bs. My kid was in a few years ago for a high cogat and a 16 gbrs. The gbrs was 5 pages single spaced, typed. It had quotes from her, answers she'd given, things she did, etc. it blew me away. Don't cause fear unnecessarily by making people think the gbrs won't be stellar just because a kid's nnat wasn't high.

She'd been pulled out since kindergarten and nnat was meh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Even with flipped numbers this one is a crap shoot. But i'd guess in on 1st round due to high NNAT.

I was going to guess the opposite. With flipped numbers, I would guess IN with a GBRS of 12+. With PP's numbers, I think a 14+ GBRS would be needed. Maybe PP's kid will get in, but PP should expect to have to appeal with a WISC.