NY times op ed on the teacher crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Yeah I'm surprised that people don't understand why preparation time is important for teachers. I did appellate law for a while and we weeks to prepare for a twenty-minute oral argument. Teachers are expected to keep students engaged for six hours a day and some parents clutch their pearls at the idea of teachers wanting to have a lot of time to prepare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

I've been in many of those courtrooms, and court stops all the time. As a teacher, people seem to think that I can get my work done during the 15 minutes when the kids are eating lunch. I don't understand why lawyers can't (OK, actually I do, but it's why it mindboggles me that I can understand that you can't just do intellectually demanding work standing in a hallway with distractions, and that you also need time in your office to work on cases, but you can't understand the same things about me)l

I don't get two months off for mental health. I have two months during which I need to find another job, because I'm not getting paid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

To be clear I'm not trying to win an one-upmanship contest or anything, just establishing that overwork is a very common thing in other professions too. It especially affects those of us who tend toward perfectionism and aren't comfortable giving just 85%, which many people do. I felt such a strong ethical obligation as both a PD and a prosecutor because I had other peoples' liberty in my hands, and there was always more work. Always. I routinely spent 6 days/week at my workplace, usually 10-12 hour days, and even half a day on Sunday when my caseload was particularly egregious. And the cases were always in my head, I was always thinking of the clients or the cases 24/7/365.

This is why I feel I am going to be able to deal with the stress of teaching, even if it is not right or ideal that the situation is this way. Given my prior work history, it will be freaking amazing to have several weeks off every year to recharge my batteries - I recognize that I am lucky to be going to teach in a state where my salary will be enough to live on fairly comfortably without needing to take a summer job as many of the friends who teach in the worst states do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

I've been in many of those courtrooms, and court stops all the time. As a teacher, people seem to think that I can get my work done during the 15 minutes when the kids are eating lunch. I don't understand why lawyers can't (OK, actually I do, but it's why it mindboggles me that I can understand that you can't just do intellectually demanding work standing in a hallway with distractions, and that you also need time in your office to work on cases, but you can't understand the same things about me)l

I don't get two months off for mental health. I have two months during which I need to find another job, because I'm not getting paid.

Thank you! The “two months off” is actually two UNPAID months, during which I work a 2nd job and still spend many hours a week preparing for the next school year. I also have to take classes (on my dime) to maintain my certification.

Lawyer PP,
I can see your job is challenging. I don’t understand why you can’t give teachers the same respect. I have 150 “clients” and I meet with them for over 30 hours each week. I’m directly responsible for meeting EACH ONE where they are and helping them progress forward, a task that is nearly impossible considering their different needs, backgrounds, experiences, preparation, etc. I also have 8 weekly meetings (in addition to 15 classes) that I have to be prepared for and lead. I am responsible for a mountain of paperwork and I can get on serious legal trouble if I screw it up.

And I get paid a fraction of what you do, even though we probably have similar educational credentials. (I have several degrees.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

I've been in many of those courtrooms, and court stops all the time. As a teacher, people seem to think that I can get my work done during the 15 minutes when the kids are eating lunch. I don't understand why lawyers can't (OK, actually I do, but it's why it mindboggles me that I can understand that you can't just do intellectually demanding work standing in a hallway with distractions, and that you also need time in your office to work on cases, but you can't understand the same things about me)l

I don't get two months off for mental health. I have two months during which I need to find another job, because I'm not getting paid.

Thank you! The “two months off” is actually two UNPAID months, during which I work a 2nd job and still spend many hours a week preparing for the next school year. I also have to take classes (on my dime) to maintain my certification.

Lawyer PP,
I can see your job is challenging. I don’t understand why you can’t give teachers the same respect. I have 150 “clients” and I meet with them for over 30 hours each week. I’m directly responsible for meeting EACH ONE where they are and helping them progress forward, a task that is nearly impossible considering their different needs, backgrounds, experiences, preparation, etc. I also have 8 weekly meetings (in addition to 15 classes) that I have to be prepared for and lead. I am responsible for a mountain of paperwork and I can get on serious legal trouble if I screw it up.

And I get paid a fraction of what you do, even though we probably have similar educational credentials. (I have several degrees.)

What do you want? Two months of pay for work you aren’t doing? It has already been confirmed that there isn’t enough work to justify paying teachers for 12 months of work.

Or maybe you want a job where you work and get paid for 12 months? You won’t find any other job where you are even able to take (unpaid or paid) 2 months off in summer, 2 weeks off over Xmas, a week off for spring break, 4 day weekend for Labor Day and Memorial Day, 4 days off for thanksgiving, mid winter break on Feb…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

I've been in many of those courtrooms, and court stops all the time. As a teacher, people seem to think that I can get my work done during the 15 minutes when the kids are eating lunch. I don't understand why lawyers can't (OK, actually I do, but it's why it mindboggles me that I can understand that you can't just do intellectually demanding work standing in a hallway with distractions, and that you also need time in your office to work on cases, but you can't understand the same things about me)l

I don't get two months off for mental health. I have two months during which I need to find another job, because I'm not getting paid.

Thank you! The “two months off” is actually two UNPAID months, during which I work a 2nd job and still spend many hours a week preparing for the next school year. I also have to take classes (on my dime) to maintain my certification.

Lawyer PP,
I can see your job is challenging. I don’t understand why you can’t give teachers the same respect. I have 150 “clients” and I meet with them for over 30 hours each week. I’m directly responsible for meeting EACH ONE where they are and helping them progress forward, a task that is nearly impossible considering their different needs, backgrounds, experiences, preparation, etc. I also have 8 weekly meetings (in addition to 15 classes) that I have to be prepared for and lead. I am responsible for a mountain of paperwork and I can get on serious legal trouble if I screw it up.

And I get paid a fraction of what you do, even though we probably have similar educational credentials. (I have several degrees.)

What do you want? Two months of pay for work you aren’t doing? It has already been confirmed that there isn’t enough work to justify paying teachers for 12 months of work.

Or maybe you want a job where you work and get paid for 12 months? You won’t find any other job where you are even able to take (unpaid or paid) 2 months off in summer, 2 weeks off over Xmas, a week off for spring break, 4 day weekend for Labor Day and Memorial Day, 4 days off for thanksgiving, mid winter break on Feb…

I’ve done this on DCUM before:

I work 65 hours a week for 40 weeks: 2600 hours a year
A 40 hours/week job for 50 weeks: 2000 hours a year

I work 600 hours (15 weeks) more than an annual employee with a reasonable workload. I just have to cram all that into 10 months. I then have 2 months to get another job (at 40 hours a week) to make up for my low pay.

So… I AM doing the work. Want to try that argument again?

[Anonymous]

Teachers are done....parents want to be rude about it and bury their head in sand. Go for it. Bottom line teachers are shrugging and walking out the door.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

I've been in many of those courtrooms, and court stops all the time. As a teacher, people seem to think that I can get my work done during the 15 minutes when the kids are eating lunch. I don't understand why lawyers can't (OK, actually I do, but it's why it mindboggles me that I can understand that you can't just do intellectually demanding work standing in a hallway with distractions, and that you also need time in your office to work on cases, but you can't understand the same things about me)l

I don't get two months off for mental health. I have two months during which I need to find another job, because I'm not getting paid.

Thank you! The “two months off” is actually two UNPAID months, during which I work a 2nd job and still spend many hours a week preparing for the next school year. I also have to take classes (on my dime) to maintain my certification.

Lawyer PP,
I can see your job is challenging. I don’t understand why you can’t give teachers the same respect. I have 150 “clients” and I meet with them for over 30 hours each week. I’m directly responsible for meeting EACH ONE where they are and helping them progress forward, a task that is nearly impossible considering their different needs, backgrounds, experiences, preparation, etc. I also have 8 weekly meetings (in addition to 15 classes) that I have to be prepared for and lead. I am responsible for a mountain of paperwork and I can get on serious legal trouble if I screw it up.

And I get paid a fraction of what you do, even though we probably have similar educational credentials. (I have several degrees.)

What do you want? Two months of pay for work you aren’t doing? It has already been confirmed that there isn’t enough work to justify paying teachers for 12 months of work.

Or maybe you want a job where you work and get paid for 12 months? You won’t find any other job where you are even able to take (unpaid or paid) 2 months off in summer, 2 weeks off over Xmas, a week off for spring break, 4 day weekend for Labor Day and Memorial Day, 4 days off for thanksgiving, mid winter break on Feb…

I’ve done this on DCUM before:

I work 65 hours a week for 40 weeks: 2600 hours a year
A 40 hours/week job for 50 weeks: 2000 hours a year

I work 600 hours (15 weeks) more than an annual employee with a reasonable workload. I just have to cram all that into 10 months. I then have 2 months to get another job (at 40 hours a week) to make up for my low pay.

So… I AM doing the work. Want to try that argument again?

And you are assuming everyone else working all 12 months per year on salary is working 8 hrs per day? Ha

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

I've been in many of those courtrooms, and court stops all the time. As a teacher, people seem to think that I can get my work done during the 15 minutes when the kids are eating lunch. I don't understand why lawyers can't (OK, actually I do, but it's why it mindboggles me that I can understand that you can't just do intellectually demanding work standing in a hallway with distractions, and that you also need time in your office to work on cases, but you can't understand the same things about me)l

I don't get two months off for mental health. I have two months during which I need to find another job, because I'm not getting paid.

Thank you! The “two months off” is actually two UNPAID months, during which I work a 2nd job and still spend many hours a week preparing for the next school year. I also have to take classes (on my dime) to maintain my certification.

Lawyer PP,
I can see your job is challenging. I don’t understand why you can’t give teachers the same respect. I have 150 “clients” and I meet with them for over 30 hours each week. I’m directly responsible for meeting EACH ONE where they are and helping them progress forward, a task that is nearly impossible considering their different needs, backgrounds, experiences, preparation, etc. I also have 8 weekly meetings (in addition to 15 classes) that I have to be prepared for and lead. I am responsible for a mountain of paperwork and I can get on serious legal trouble if I screw it up.

And I get paid a fraction of what you do, even though we probably have similar educational credentials. (I have several degrees.)

I have not been disrespectful to you or any other teachers, you seem to have a humongous chip on your shoulder that makes it impossible for you to look past your preconceptions about other people's workloads and salaries and everything else.

Until very recently, legal aid attorneys and public defenders and prosecutors made the same average salary as most teachers. You are clearly one of the ignorant Americans who think *all* lawyers make bank, when nothing could be further from the truth. Law school is also incredibly expensive and the majority of lawyers are carrying a much higher student debt burden than the majority of teachers, while lawyers have only recently become eligible for the same kind of loan forgiveness that has been standard for teachers for decades.

If a lawyer screws up in their job, they can face disbarment and permanent removal from the profession and means of making a living in their chosen profession into which they have invested years of education and training.

Educators have the lowest suicide rate of any profession tracked by the CDC, despite the apparent endless complaining about working conditions that you have very well schooled me on in this exchange. Lawyers by contrast have a suicide rate 3x that of educators. But sure, it's easy peasy being a lawyer and raking in the cash - so why don't you go to law school and get on easy street and stop b****ing about being a disrespected teacher?

Thank you, truly, for letting me know in advance that the worst thing I'll encounter when I start teaching next year is not hungry kids who are being molested and beaten at home and struggle to focus on what I'm trying to teach them, but rather bitter teachers who feel they are the most put upon person in the entirety of the working world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

I've been in many of those courtrooms, and court stops all the time. As a teacher, people seem to think that I can get my work done during the 15 minutes when the kids are eating lunch. I don't understand why lawyers can't (OK, actually I do, but it's why it mindboggles me that I can understand that you can't just do intellectually demanding work standing in a hallway with distractions, and that you also need time in your office to work on cases, but you can't understand the same things about me)l

I don't get two months off for mental health. I have two months during which I need to find another job, because I'm not getting paid.

Thank you! The “two months off” is actually two UNPAID months, during which I work a 2nd job and still spend many hours a week preparing for the next school year. I also have to take classes (on my dime) to maintain my certification.

Lawyer PP,
I can see your job is challenging. I don’t understand why you can’t give teachers the same respect. I have 150 “clients” and I meet with them for over 30 hours each week. I’m directly responsible for meeting EACH ONE where they are and helping them progress forward, a task that is nearly impossible considering their different needs, backgrounds, experiences, preparation, etc. I also have 8 weekly meetings (in addition to 15 classes) that I have to be prepared for and lead. I am responsible for a mountain of paperwork and I can get on serious legal trouble if I screw it up.

And I get paid a fraction of what you do, even though we probably have similar educational credentials. (I have several degrees.)

I have not been disrespectful to you or any other teachers, you seem to have a humongous chip on your shoulder that makes it impossible for you to look past your preconceptions about other people's workloads and salaries and everything else.

Until very recently, legal aid attorneys and public defenders and prosecutors made the same average salary as most teachers. You are clearly one of the ignorant Americans who think *all* lawyers make bank, when nothing could be further from the truth. Law school is also incredibly expensive and the majority of lawyers are carrying a much higher student debt burden than the majority of teachers, while lawyers have only recently become eligible for the same kind of loan forgiveness that has been standard for teachers for decades.

If a lawyer screws up in their job, they can face disbarment and permanent removal from the profession and means of making a living in their chosen profession into which they have invested years of education and training.

Educators have the lowest suicide rate of any profession tracked by the CDC, despite the apparent endless complaining about working conditions that you have very well schooled me on in this exchange. Lawyers by contrast have a suicide rate 3x that of educators. But sure, it's easy peasy being a lawyer and raking in the cash - so why don't you go to law school and get on easy street and stop b****ing about being a disrespected teacher?

Thank you, truly, for letting me know in advance that the worst thing I'll encounter when I start teaching next year is not hungry kids who are being molested and beaten at home and struggle to focus on what I'm trying to teach them, but rather bitter teachers who feel they are the most put upon person in the entirety of the working world.

PS - You are burnt out, and it is time for you to quit teaching. With the attitude you've expressed here, you can't be doing much good for your students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

Progressive policies where remedial learners are kept in classes with advanced learners, getting rid of tracking or ap classes or teaching to the lowest denominator are all factors in this.

The author generally focuses the article partly on culture war stuff like stupid southern schools banning any discussion of trans issues etc, but neglects to include a discussion of the very real problematic issues of teachers being unable to control their classrooms and discipline kids. Basically out of control kids have to stay in the classroom because it’s now “unfair” to suspend or remove them. Until teachers feel safe and respected a big part of teacher retention is unaddressed and the lack of teachers will continue. I agree with much of the other problems in the article, but why it so hard to admit we can’t just restorative Justice hug problems away?

Then why are red states who are as far removed from progressive policies as you can possibly get facing the same (and in some cases greater) shortages?

Because you can have multiple causes and multiple things can be true at the same time.

In red states teachers are quitting because of trans bans and other toxic right-wing politics.

In blue states teachers are quitting because they can no longer control their classroom because of "restorative" justice and other toxic left-wing politics.

Different reasons but same effect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

I've been in many of those courtrooms, and court stops all the time. As a teacher, people seem to think that I can get my work done during the 15 minutes when the kids are eating lunch. I don't understand why lawyers can't (OK, actually I do, but it's why it mindboggles me that I can understand that you can't just do intellectually demanding work standing in a hallway with distractions, and that you also need time in your office to work on cases, but you can't understand the same things about me)l

I don't get two months off for mental health. I have two months during which I need to find another job, because I'm not getting paid.

Thank you! The “two months off” is actually two UNPAID months, during which I work a 2nd job and still spend many hours a week preparing for the next school year. I also have to take classes (on my dime) to maintain my certification.

Lawyer PP,
I can see your job is challenging. I don’t understand why you can’t give teachers the same respect. I have 150 “clients” and I meet with them for over 30 hours each week. I’m directly responsible for meeting EACH ONE where they are and helping them progress forward, a task that is nearly impossible considering their different needs, backgrounds, experiences, preparation, etc. I also have 8 weekly meetings (in addition to 15 classes) that I have to be prepared for and lead. I am responsible for a mountain of paperwork and I can get on serious legal trouble if I screw it up.

And I get paid a fraction of what you do, even though we probably have similar educational credentials. (I have several degrees.)

I have not been disrespectful to you or any other teachers, you seem to have a humongous chip on your shoulder that makes it impossible for you to look past your preconceptions about other people's workloads and salaries and everything else.

Until very recently, legal aid attorneys and public defenders and prosecutors made the same average salary as most teachers. You are clearly one of the ignorant Americans who think *all* lawyers make bank, when nothing could be further from the truth. Law school is also incredibly expensive and the majority of lawyers are carrying a much higher student debt burden than the majority of teachers, while lawyers have only recently become eligible for the same kind of loan forgiveness that has been standard for teachers for decades.

If a lawyer screws up in their job, they can face disbarment and permanent removal from the profession and means of making a living in their chosen profession into which they have invested years of education and training.

Educators have the lowest suicide rate of any profession tracked by the CDC, despite the apparent endless complaining about working conditions that you have very well schooled me on in this exchange. Lawyers by contrast have a suicide rate 3x that of educators. But sure, it's easy peasy being a lawyer and raking in the cash - so why don't you go to law school and get on easy street and stop b****ing about being a disrespected teacher?

Thank you, truly, for letting me know in advance that the worst thing I'll encounter when I start teaching next year is not hungry kids who are being molested and beaten at home and struggle to focus on what I'm trying to teach them, but rather bitter teachers who feel they are the most put upon person in the entirety of the working world.

Seeing that I gave you respect for the job you do and you STILL can’t give respect to teachers for theirs, I’m simply going to end this.

Good luck next year. You are heading into teaching with far more preconceived notions than you initially let on. I encourage you not to take this hostility toward teachers with you as you start Teach for America. When you see what the job is actually like, you’ll need the support and encouragement we can give you. You can’t do this job alone, and attacking the people who know what you’ll need to learn isn’t going to win you any support during your first year.

Sincerely, good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

I've been in many of those courtrooms, and court stops all the time. As a teacher, people seem to think that I can get my work done during the 15 minutes when the kids are eating lunch. I don't understand why lawyers can't (OK, actually I do, but it's why it mindboggles me that I can understand that you can't just do intellectually demanding work standing in a hallway with distractions, and that you also need time in your office to work on cases, but you can't understand the same things about me)l

I don't get two months off for mental health. I have two months during which I need to find another job, because I'm not getting paid.

Thank you! The “two months off” is actually two UNPAID months, during which I work a 2nd job and still spend many hours a week preparing for the next school year. I also have to take classes (on my dime) to maintain my certification.

Lawyer PP,
I can see your job is challenging. I don’t understand why you can’t give teachers the same respect. I have 150 “clients” and I meet with them for over 30 hours each week. I’m directly responsible for meeting EACH ONE where they are and helping them progress forward, a task that is nearly impossible considering their different needs, backgrounds, experiences, preparation, etc. I also have 8 weekly meetings (in addition to 15 classes) that I have to be prepared for and lead. I am responsible for a mountain of paperwork and I can get on serious legal trouble if I screw it up.

And I get paid a fraction of what you do, even though we probably have similar educational credentials. (I have several degrees.)

I have not been disrespectful to you or any other teachers, you seem to have a humongous chip on your shoulder that makes it impossible for you to look past your preconceptions about other people's workloads and salaries and everything else.

Until very recently, legal aid attorneys and public defenders and prosecutors made the same average salary as most teachers. You are clearly one of the ignorant Americans who think *all* lawyers make bank, when nothing could be further from the truth. Law school is also incredibly expensive and the majority of lawyers are carrying a much higher student debt burden than the majority of teachers, while lawyers have only recently become eligible for the same kind of loan forgiveness that has been standard for teachers for decades.

If a lawyer screws up in their job, they can face disbarment and permanent removal from the profession and means of making a living in their chosen profession into which they have invested years of education and training.

Educators have the lowest suicide rate of any profession tracked by the CDC, despite the apparent endless complaining about working conditions that you have very well schooled me on in this exchange. Lawyers by contrast have a suicide rate 3x that of educators. But sure, it's easy peasy being a lawyer and raking in the cash - so why don't you go to law school and get on easy street and stop b****ing about being a disrespected teacher?

Thank you, truly, for letting me know in advance that the worst thing I'll encounter when I start teaching next year is not hungry kids who are being molested and beaten at home and struggle to focus on what I'm trying to teach them, but rather bitter teachers who feel they are the most put upon person in the entirety of the working world.

Seeing that I gave you respect for the job you do and you STILL can’t give respect to teachers for theirs, I’m simply going to end this.

Good luck next year. You are heading into teaching with far more preconceived notions than you initially let on. I encourage you not to take this hostility toward teachers with you as you start Teach for America. When you see what the job is actually like, you’ll need the support and encouragement we can give you. You can’t do this job alone, and attacking the people who know what you’ll need to learn isn’t going to win you any support during your first year.

Sincerely, good luck.

I've been a teacher before, I have several friends who have been public school teachers for decades and don't talk like you are talking. I'm actually talking to one of them on the phone right now, and he's told me that the kinds of things you've been posting here are evident in some teachers who are big on the union party line of 'teachers so maligned and overworked' and no response to that is adequate.

I don't disrespect teachers. After this exchange, and your insistence that you know things about other peoples' working lives and salaries that you clearly don't know, I do disrespect you.

Have a nice day, hope you can retire soon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

I've been in many of those courtrooms, and court stops all the time. As a teacher, people seem to think that I can get my work done during the 15 minutes when the kids are eating lunch. I don't understand why lawyers can't (OK, actually I do, but it's why it mindboggles me that I can understand that you can't just do intellectually demanding work standing in a hallway with distractions, and that you also need time in your office to work on cases, but you can't understand the same things about me)l

I don't get two months off for mental health. I have two months during which I need to find another job, because I'm not getting paid.

Thank you! The “two months off” is actually two UNPAID months, during which I work a 2nd job and still spend many hours a week preparing for the next school year. I also have to take classes (on my dime) to maintain my certification.

Lawyer PP,
I can see your job is challenging. I don’t understand why you can’t give teachers the same respect. I have 150 “clients” and I meet with them for over 30 hours each week. I’m directly responsible for meeting EACH ONE where they are and helping them progress forward, a task that is nearly impossible considering their different needs, backgrounds, experiences, preparation, etc. I also have 8 weekly meetings (in addition to 15 classes) that I have to be prepared for and lead. I am responsible for a mountain of paperwork and I can get on serious legal trouble if I screw it up.

And I get paid a fraction of what you do, even though we probably have similar educational credentials. (I have several degrees.)

I have not been disrespectful to you or any other teachers, you seem to have a humongous chip on your shoulder that makes it impossible for you to look past your preconceptions about other people's workloads and salaries and everything else.

Until very recently, legal aid attorneys and public defenders and prosecutors made the same average salary as most teachers. You are clearly one of the ignorant Americans who think *all* lawyers make bank, when nothing could be further from the truth. Law school is also incredibly expensive and the majority of lawyers are carrying a much higher student debt burden than the majority of teachers, while lawyers have only recently become eligible for the same kind of loan forgiveness that has been standard for teachers for decades.

If a lawyer screws up in their job, they can face disbarment and permanent removal from the profession and means of making a living in their chosen profession into which they have invested years of education and training.

Educators have the lowest suicide rate of any profession tracked by the CDC, despite the apparent endless complaining about working conditions that you have very well schooled me on in this exchange. Lawyers by contrast have a suicide rate 3x that of educators. But sure, it's easy peasy being a lawyer and raking in the cash - so why don't you go to law school and get on easy street and stop b****ing about being a disrespected teacher?

Thank you, truly, for letting me know in advance that the worst thing I'll encounter when I start teaching next year is not hungry kids who are being molested and beaten at home and struggle to focus on what I'm trying to teach them, but rather bitter teachers who feel they are the most put upon person in the entirety of the working world.

Seeing that I gave you respect for the job you do and you STILL can’t give respect to teachers for theirs, I’m simply going to end this.

Good luck next year. You are heading into teaching with far more preconceived notions than you initially let on. I encourage you not to take this hostility toward teachers with you as you start Teach for America. When you see what the job is actually like, you’ll need the support and encouragement we can give you. You can’t do this job alone, and attacking the people who know what you’ll need to learn isn’t going to win you any support during your first year.

Sincerely, good luck.

I've been a teacher before, I have several friends who have been public school teachers for decades and don't talk like you are talking. I'm actually talking to one of them on the phone right now, and he's told me that the kinds of things you've been posting here are evident in some teachers who are big on the union party line of 'teachers so maligned and overworked' and no response to that is adequate.

I don't disrespect teachers. After this exchange, and your insistence that you know things about other peoples' working lives and salaries that you clearly don't know, I do disrespect you.

Have a nice day, hope you can retire soon.

Big on union party lines? You are SO FAR OFF, as is your teacher friend. So far off.

Again, and I say this sincerely: good luck. You’d be pretty surprised if you met me in real life, once you realized how your assessment misrepresented what is actually working and good in education. But regardless of your disrespect for me, I wish you luck. We need people.