NY times op ed on the teacher crisis

[Anonymous]

Teachers don’t lol themselves. They quit and they are doing it in droves. I’ve never seen teachers quit mid year before and we’ve had many do it in the last 3 years.

[Anonymous]

This tfa wannabe has to be a troll right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The simple answer is pay. They can work less, for more $, in the private sector. Why WOULD they want to teach? Loving kids, or loving your work etc (despite the problems) is not always enough. They have families to support too. Raise pay. Significantly.

That said (to address one of the comments): k-12 teaching will NEVER be a career that commonly offers options to work remotely. Ever ever ever. That is an incredibly unreasonable expectation. If you want to work from home, K-12 teaching is not the career for you.

I agree pay and benefits are the core issue. FWIW, we are in DCPS and it seems like even in our Title 1 school, they retain teachers really well. I know there is a pay bump for Title 1 teachers and I think it makes a difference. Some of the veteran teachers at our school make as much as 120k. That's a very good salary in the public sector -- there are engineers who make less, and even high level administrators who oversee large departments only make a bit more. So paying teachers well definitely helps with retention (and I'm betting also helps with job satisfaction -- it's easier to deal with annoying work stuff if you feel you are being well compensated).

But I think the other key issue is administration. The number one complaint I hear from DCPS teachers is frustration with either Central Office or school administration, and the biggest issue is the feeling that the people setting policy, deciding on curriculum, determining schedules, etc., are checked out or don't really care about what is happening at the classroom level. So I think one concrete thing school districts could do to improve teacher retention is to hire more people with actual classroom experience into administration and support roles, and to do a better job of listening to teachers and responding to their feedback. Teachers should have a say in curriculum changes, and their input should be essential to other aspects of policy-making.

I agree with most of this, although I don't know if pay is "the core" issue. It's absurd to think that even $50,000 a 50,000-a-year pay increase would transform unhappy teachers into happy ones if all other conditions remain the same. Greater autonomy and more supportive administration are also needed. The teacher's post listing things to change is amazing.

NP. But the things being complained about are pretty much present in every single profession. Long hours, “overtime”, annoying emails, using your own money and resources toward something to do to with your job. To me, these are standard issues every professional adult deals with at work.

As a public sector employee, the above resonates with me. As a PP noted, there are scores of highly educated professionals who work in public sector jobs who earn low wages, have unreasonable workloads, are expected to devote endless hours of extra labor without compensation (we get BS "comp" time we can't use), and who don't get winter and spring breaks. Check out some attorney discussion boards and read how difficult it is to find public defenders and prosecutors because of the low pay and crushing workload. This is a problem that extends beyond the education field.

Another thing no one has mentioned is that it's difficult as a parent to strike the appropriate balance between supporting our kids and their teachers and becoming too involved. The entire education system needs to be revamped from top to bottom to set teachers up for success, which in turn will improve relationships with parents. With too many meetings and administrative burdens, it's easy to see why teachers' work in the classroom can suffer. Dealing with teachers who lack the time or bandwidth to build relationships with students and ratchets up parental stress.

The article talks about eroded respect for teachers. I always found it interesting that my ADHD kid would get zeros for the work he didn't turn in or turned in late, yet his teachers could take more than 10 days to respond to an email with a straightforward question or were permitted to enter a quarter's work of grades on the last day of the quarter. I tried to be understanding, but I admit my respect for the profession waivered from time to time, and it probably showed. Like teachers, parents are human beings being pulled in multiple directions. I know from experience with my own job that stressed and overwhelmed workers are less effective than happy ones. It's essential to create a workplace where teachers earn respect by having enough time to do the parts of their jobs that students and parents can see.

My DD didn't turn in her homework on time ONCE in 2nd grade last year and she was forced to not participate in their extra recess as a punishment. She kept saying she brought it, the teacher wouldn't listen to her ... well turns out the homework collector kid stashed it under a pile. They found it the next day. Crazy punishment for a 7 year old IMO. This teacher then at the end of the year didn't even fully enter her grades on her report card. I emailed during their PD days at the end of the year to ask about this and got zero response. She has no grades still for that quarter online.

Grades don’t matter until at least 5th grade when some of it matters for math level or some such,
But the punishment is crazy. I hope next time you raise hell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've been thinking about teaching in my golden years. I'm more afraid of being shot, catching something from an unvaxxed kid, or being targeted in some way by easily triggered parents.

Plus the pay is terrible.

No please don’t teach. If you don’t know that the vaccine works for the vaccinated person and not for those around them, maybe you need more education yourself

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

+1 As a former teacher, I still have nightmares about the freaking paragraph length e-mails I would receive from SAHMs angered by a slight that their precious child received in class. Go do something else with your life! The teacher is already overburdened with the KIDS in her actual class in front of her. She doesn't have time to get on the computer and wrote you in length back.

Oh no, a whole paragraph...

You're missing the point. Parents shouldn't be hovering and emailing over every single slight their children might experience during the school day.

Even if something like denying recess is happening? Too many things seem unimportant to teachers that are important to parents and kids
My personal pet peeve is denying access to water and bathroom

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

+1 As a former teacher, I still have nightmares about the freaking paragraph length e-mails I would receive from SAHMs angered by a slight that their precious child received in class. Go do something else with your life! The teacher is already overburdened with the KIDS in her actual class in front of her. She doesn't have time to get on the computer and wrote you in length back.

Oh no, a whole paragraph...

You're missing the point. Parents shouldn't be hovering and emailing over every single slight their children might experience during the school day.

Even if something like denying recess is happening? Too many things seem unimportant to teachers that are important to parents and kids
My personal pet peeve is denying access to water and bathroom

Yes, yes you should email about denying recess and water. No you should not email the teacher about why she didn't help the kid fix her sweater for picture day. The first is important, the second is hovering. No need to be obtuse, you know the difference and so do 99% of most teachers.

[Anonymous]

Hehehe, preteachers are so overly optimistic and idealistic.

I hope it works out for you, TFA lawyer. I really do.

--20 year veteran who teaches at a "cushy" school where new teachers still regularly cry that first year, regardless of former experience.

[Anonymous]

My attitude is that if it's just too awful working with at risk kids, I'll fulfill my two year contract and then move to a nice school with UMC kids where this kind of issue is much less common.

Oh, man. You're gonna get a shock.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

My attitude is that if it's just too awful working with at risk kids, I'll fulfill my two year contract and then move to a nice school with UMC kids where this kind of issue is much less common.

Oh, man. You're gonna get a shock.

The odds this attorney makes it to the second semester are off the board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

+1 As a former teacher, I still have nightmares about the freaking paragraph length e-mails I would receive from SAHMs angered by a slight that their precious child received in class. Go do something else with your life! The teacher is already overburdened with the KIDS in her actual class in front of her. She doesn't have time to get on the computer and wrote you in length back.

Oh no, a whole paragraph...

You're missing the point. Parents shouldn't be hovering and emailing over every single slight their children might experience during the school day.

Even if something like denying recess is happening? Too many things seem unimportant to teachers that are important to parents and kids
My personal pet peeve is denying access to water and bathroom

Yes, yes you should email about denying recess and water. No you should not email the teacher about why she didn't help the kid fix her sweater for picture day. The first is important, the second is hovering. No need to be obtuse, you know the difference and so do 99% of most teachers.

Lol that you think the kind of teacher who withholds recess or water is the kind of teacher who will be responsive when you email her to tell her that these punishments aren't okay for your kid. The teacher who is going to be responsive to that complaint isn't going to do that stuff to begin with, because that's lazy, counter-productive classroom management ("let's deprive the kids having the most trouble sitting still and staying on task of the ONE THING that might actually help with that!").

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

I've been in many of those courtrooms, and court stops all the time. As a teacher, people seem to think that I can get my work done during the 15 minutes when the kids are eating lunch. I don't understand why lawyers can't (OK, actually I do, but it's why it mindboggles me that I can understand that you can't just do intellectually demanding work standing in a hallway with distractions, and that you also need time in your office to work on cases, but you can't understand the same things about me)l

I don't get two months off for mental health. I have two months during which I need to find another job, because I'm not getting paid.

Thank you! The “two months off” is actually two UNPAID months, during which I work a 2nd job and still spend many hours a week preparing for the next school year. I also have to take classes (on my dime) to maintain my certification.

Lawyer PP,
I can see your job is challenging. I don’t understand why you can’t give teachers the same respect. I have 150 “clients” and I meet with them for over 30 hours each week. I’m directly responsible for meeting EACH ONE where they are and helping them progress forward, a task that is nearly impossible considering their different needs, backgrounds, experiences, preparation, etc. I also have 8 weekly meetings (in addition to 15 classes) that I have to be prepared for and lead. I am responsible for a mountain of paperwork and I can get on serious legal trouble if I screw it up.

And I get paid a fraction of what you do, even though we probably have similar educational credentials. (I have several degrees.)

What do you want? Two months of pay for work you aren’t doing? It has already been confirmed that there isn’t enough work to justify paying teachers for 12 months of work.

Or maybe you want a job where you work and get paid for 12 months? You won’t find any other job where you are even able to take (unpaid or paid) 2 months off in summer, 2 weeks off over Xmas, a week off for spring break, 4 day weekend for Labor Day and Memorial Day, 4 days off for thanksgiving, mid winter break on Feb…

I’ve done this on DCUM before:

I work 65 hours a week for 40 weeks: 2600 hours a year
A 40 hours/week job for 50 weeks: 2000 hours a year

I work 600 hours (15 weeks) more than an annual employee with a reasonable workload. I just have to cram all that into 10 months. I then have 2 months to get another job (at 40 hours a week) to make up for my low pay.

So… I AM doing the work. Want to try that argument again?

And you are assuming everyone else working all 12 months per year on salary is working 8 hrs per day? Ha

It doesn’t matter if everyone else is. As a former teacher, I was able to secure a job that’s 40 hours a week and pays more than my private school job. Teachers aren’t quitting to become lawyers. They’re getting boring desk jobs. I thank God every day for my boring desk job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hehehe, preteachers are so overly optimistic and idealistic.

I hope it works out for you, TFA lawyer. I really do.

--20 year veteran who teaches at a "cushy" school where new teachers still regularly cry that first year, regardless of former experience.

I'm not overly optimistic or idealistic, poster. After decades in the criminal justice system, I've seen and endured things that would make most people despair. To suggest that I'm not tough enough to hack teaching in public schools is laughable - I've already done quite well as a substitute, so I am not worried that I can make it there.

I can make it anywhere, and have done so my entire life - beginning with a childhood in which I was molested and beaten on a regular basis, and witnessed my mother nearly murdered among other horrors. They don't make human beings more resilient than me. I'm certainly not going to have my feelings hurt by a bunch of kids, nor by their parents - I've worked thousands of hours with kids in educational settings already, it's not something alien to me. Dealing with difficult people - adults and children alike - has been my entire career thus far.

Save your disingenuous well wishes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hehehe, preteachers are so overly optimistic and idealistic.

I hope it works out for you, TFA lawyer. I really do.

--20 year veteran who teaches at a "cushy" school where new teachers still regularly cry that first year, regardless of former experience.

I'm not overly optimistic or idealistic, poster. After decades in the criminal justice system, I've seen and endured things that would make most people despair. To suggest that I'm not tough enough to hack teaching in public schools is laughable - I've already done quite well as a substitute, so I am not worried that I can make it there.

I can make it anywhere, and have done so my entire life - beginning with a childhood in which I was molested and beaten on a regular basis, and witnessed my mother nearly murdered among other horrors. They don't make human beings more resilient than me. I'm certainly not going to have my feelings hurt by a bunch of kids, nor by their parents - I've worked thousands of hours with kids in educational settings already, it's not something alien to me. Dealing with difficult people - adults and children alike - has been my entire career thus far.

Save your disingenuous well wishes.

You’ll be fine. Teachers love to act like teaching is the hardest most grueling job on the planet. It isn’t. You know that, I know that, lots of others who have truly worked hard(er) jobs know that.

[Anonymous]

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers.

I absolutely agree that teachers need to be paid more and given more planning time. However, this comment reflects utter ignorance about what it is like to be a lawyer - at least for me, as a DOJ litigator.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference is that if one of your clients became violent, you could call a security guard or the police to have them removed. If one of my students becomes violent, nobody comes. I’m told I am a bad teacher. I will finish up this year and you can take my place. I cannot work in a place where I do not feel safe. A student threw a spiral notebook at me a few weeks ago and the scratch on my face is still there. Nothing happened to that student but I was told not to place any demands on him. So he sleeps through a few classes and I hope to God nothing wakes him up again.

And the other difference is that lawyers aren't in the courtroom in front of a judge 30 hours a week. They get time to plan. Even when they complain that it's not enough, they get more time to plan that most teachers. My brother does corporate training, where he presents the same exact thing over and over again, using a scripted curriculum, to adults, none of whom are learning English and have IEPs, and he has a much higher ratio of planning time to instructional time than I do.

I've been hurt by students including a broken bone. That's not what makes me consider leaving. The thing that makes me consider leaving is that the workload is such that I can put in 80 hour weeks, and still feel like I am failing kids due to not having enough time. And failing kids is what I can't tolerate. But I'm a special educator, a position that has been hit particularly hard by this crisis.

Sorry, more ignorance of the legal profession expressed here. You might be thinking of corporate lawyers? Public defenders and prosecutors often spend most of every work day in the courtroom in routine hearings, and if it's rural America they may spend several hours each week traveling to and from various courthouses because maybe PDs cover multiple courts. Then have to spend more hours back in the office doing the casework. As a public defender and prosecutor my typical work week was 60 hours, and if I was in trial prep or trial, easily 70-90. And I barely had the ability to take my two weeks' vacation, I often didn't because coming back from a vacation would be such a nightmare of piled up work that it destroyed any positive benefit from taking time off. No such thing as two solid months off for mental health break.

I've been in many of those courtrooms, and court stops all the time. As a teacher, people seem to think that I can get my work done during the 15 minutes when the kids are eating lunch. I don't understand why lawyers can't (OK, actually I do, but it's why it mindboggles me that I can understand that you can't just do intellectually demanding work standing in a hallway with distractions, and that you also need time in your office to work on cases, but you can't understand the same things about me)l

I don't get two months off for mental health. I have two months during which I need to find another job, because I'm not getting paid.

Thank you! The “two months off” is actually two UNPAID months, during which I work a 2nd job and still spend many hours a week preparing for the next school year. I also have to take classes (on my dime) to maintain my certification.

Lawyer PP,
I can see your job is challenging. I don’t understand why you can’t give teachers the same respect. I have 150 “clients” and I meet with them for over 30 hours each week. I’m directly responsible for meeting EACH ONE where they are and helping them progress forward, a task that is nearly impossible considering their different needs, backgrounds, experiences, preparation, etc. I also have 8 weekly meetings (in addition to 15 classes) that I have to be prepared for and lead. I am responsible for a mountain of paperwork and I can get on serious legal trouble if I screw it up.

And I get paid a fraction of what you do, even though we probably have similar educational credentials. (I have several degrees.)

What do you want? Two months of pay for work you aren’t doing? It has already been confirmed that there isn’t enough work to justify paying teachers for 12 months of work.

Or maybe you want a job where you work and get paid for 12 months? You won’t find any other job where you are even able to take (unpaid or paid) 2 months off in summer, 2 weeks off over Xmas, a week off for spring break, 4 day weekend for Labor Day and Memorial Day, 4 days off for thanksgiving, mid winter break on Feb…

I’ve done this on DCUM before:

I work 65 hours a week for 40 weeks: 2600 hours a year
A 40 hours/week job for 50 weeks: 2000 hours a year

I work 600 hours (15 weeks) more than an annual employee with a reasonable workload. I just have to cram all that into 10 months. I then have 2 months to get another job (at 40 hours a week) to make up for my low pay.

So… I AM doing the work. Want to try that argument again?

And you are assuming everyone else working all 12 months per year on salary is working 8 hrs per day? Ha

It doesn’t matter if everyone else is. As a former teacher, I was able to secure a job that’s 40 hours a week and pays more than my private school job. Teachers aren’t quitting to become lawyers. They’re getting boring desk jobs. I thank God every day for my boring desk job.

There will be be people that want to work a steady 40 hr week desk job 12 months per year. That’s fine.

But teacher is unique that you get a LOT of time off that you are unable to get at any other job, short of taking a sabbatical: 2 weeks Xmas, 11 weeks summer, 1 week spring break, February break, several 4 day weekends. That is probably 15 plus weeks total of not working.