A Generation of American Men Give Up on College: ‘I Just Feel Lost’

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[b]

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the words that stand in it to me in the thread title: Give Up. If the first time men aren’t the dominant demo in an institution society places a high value on and their reaction is to give up, maybe they don’t belong in college.

I wonder what would happen to these poor fragile men if large numbers were sexually assaulted and sexually harassed at school and in the workplace with no consequences to the perpetuators; were raped and force to carry pregnancies to term; had their civil rights taken away; were disadvantaged by an old girls network; were paid less for equal work; we forced to bear children the didn’t want; had a glass ceiling; were significantly under-represented in Congress, the judiciary, corporate boardrooms and C-suites; had occupations they participate in in large numbers devalued (financially and in terms of prestige); were expected to do 2x to 4x more work in managing a home and raising children while working full time; etc, etc. it will take years for women’s job market participation to get back to where it was pre-COVID.

So, for the first time in this nation’s history, there is one area where white men don’t a structural advantage that makes everything easier for them and makes them the de facto dominant. Who cares? No one can argue with a straight face that they don’t have equal opportunities. In fact, my kids applied to SLACs and the standards were lower for DS.

If boys don’t have equal outcomes, maybe of the “boys will be boys” “it’s fine to spend hours on video games” mentality that has lowered our expectations of them. Or, maybe they are so unprepared for adversity because they literally never face it that they just “give up.”

Maybe boys and men need more adversity so they develop so coping skills and Grit, and not less.

But, but, but… think of the white men!

Teenage boys didn't create any of these things, nor have they enjoyed a structural advantage in education. But thank you again for pointing out that you want today's youth to suffer as much as possible, and demonstrating that you have no concern or compassion for them that would lead you to consider, for even a moment, whether there are some issues at play when it comes to our schools.

DP.. you are perpetuating a generation of snowflakes and boys with no grit. No one wants a generation of young men to suffer as much as possible. Stop being a drama queen.

We are pointing out that these young men don't have the kinds of road blocks that other groups have had historically, and yet these other groups have managed to rise above it. Why can't these young "men"?

My 17 yr old DS has to compete with smart and driven girls. So, then he needs to rise to the occasion. I am not going to feel "sorry" for him because he has to compete with girls. FFS.

Even with these stats, my DS knows he still has it a lot easier than girls do. He even said he is glad to not be a girl.. that they have it harder in general.

In the examples given, how did women who were not yet adults "rise above" these adult issues. We are talking about the path from childhood to adulthood.

I fully support giving all marginalized groups extra supports to help them succeed, but that doesn't mean that a traditionally advantaged group might face some obstacles in early education.

It infuriates me to hear all of you privileged people talking about how your boys are doing fine. Guess what? Mine are too, but that's mostly because of my privilege in being able to provide tutoring, extra supports, programs to help them explore their interests, etc. Did all of you kids do their college applications all by themselves without any parental support? Half of you probably hired college consultants.

My point is that many boys don't have these extra opportunities and supports. But more than that, my concern is about how the current system causes boys to view themselves in a negative way. In this regard, I worry more about boys of color. Yes, it's good to be diligent and to always complete your homework beginning at a young age. But not everyone has that ability when the system demands it. All children need to be build up, not beaten down. That's how healthy adults of all genders and races are formed. Support, belief, and encouragement should be built into the system and it's not.

you have no idea to whom you are responding to.

I grew up low income. My brother went into the military and then to a public ivy from there.

Privileged? OK, I mean I had parents but they didn't speak any English, couldn't help us navigate anything, and were uneducated.

If any child, boy or girl, has some SN that requires supports, sure, that should be provided.

Are you saying that the ALL of these boys who can't complete a college application with the required information are all SN? Or are many just floundering because they don't realize that you need a good paying job to get by?

The previous system wasn't working for different groups, yet those groups figured it out.

I don't see many colleges preferring females over males. Quite the opposite. If you are a male, you seem to get a boost.

The article isn't about what colleges do. It's more about general . . . purposelessness of a generation.

And no, groups didn't figure it out. That's why we have all of the supports in place for marginalized groups. Or are you a pull yourself by your bootstraps Republican who blames minorities for not getting further ahead?

I am a minority and female. There were no supports when I went to college back in the 80s. I had to figure it out on my own. Not even my parents could help me since they didn't speak any English nor were they educated.

Stop coddling young men. You are not helping them. I have seen what coddling young men can do. It's not pretty.

So you are a Repblican?

What does politics have to do with this? You don't think there are liberals who think these young men have no grit? I voted for Biden. So did my spouse, and my spouse feels the same way I do.

Are you a liberal? Do liberals not have any fortitude or grit?

Yep, I was right. A Republican.

I'm one of those old-school liberals who doesn't think that teaching "grit" should be an excuse for a system that doesn't meet the needs of those it serves. It's always worth examining whether there is more at play than simply lazy, video-game obsessed young males. But obviously most people in this form would prefer to live by their winners and losers worldview without examining if there are ways we could do better for our youth.

How do you suggest we do better for boys then? If they have every advantage and involved parents and just aren’t doing the work, how do you think we should help boys?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[b]

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the words that stand in it to me in the thread title: Give Up. If the first time men aren’t the dominant demo in an institution society places a high value on and their reaction is to give up, maybe they don’t belong in college.

I wonder what would happen to these poor fragile men if large numbers were sexually assaulted and sexually harassed at school and in the workplace with no consequences to the perpetuators; were raped and force to carry pregnancies to term; had their civil rights taken away; were disadvantaged by an old girls network; were paid less for equal work; we forced to bear children the didn’t want; had a glass ceiling; were significantly under-represented in Congress, the judiciary, corporate boardrooms and C-suites; had occupations they participate in in large numbers devalued (financially and in terms of prestige); were expected to do 2x to 4x more work in managing a home and raising children while working full time; etc, etc. it will take years for women’s job market participation to get back to where it was pre-COVID.

So, for the first time in this nation’s history, there is one area where white men don’t a structural advantage that makes everything easier for them and makes them the de facto dominant. Who cares? No one can argue with a straight face that they don’t have equal opportunities. In fact, my kids applied to SLACs and the standards were lower for DS.

If boys don’t have equal outcomes, maybe of the “boys will be boys” “it’s fine to spend hours on video games” mentality that has lowered our expectations of them. Or, maybe they are so unprepared for adversity because they literally never face it that they just “give up.”

Maybe boys and men need more adversity so they develop so coping skills and Grit, and not less.

But, but, but… think of the white men!

Teenage boys didn't create any of these things, nor have they enjoyed a structural advantage in education. But thank you again for pointing out that you want today's youth to suffer as much as possible, and demonstrating that you have no concern or compassion for them that would lead you to consider, for even a moment, whether there are some issues at play when it comes to our schools.

DP.. you are perpetuating a generation of snowflakes and boys with no grit. No one wants a generation of young men to suffer as much as possible. Stop being a drama queen.

We are pointing out that these young men don't have the kinds of road blocks that other groups have had historically, and yet these other groups have managed to rise above it. Why can't these young "men"?

My 17 yr old DS has to compete with smart and driven girls. So, then he needs to rise to the occasion. I am not going to feel "sorry" for him because he has to compete with girls. FFS.

Even with these stats, my DS knows he still has it a lot easier than girls do. He even said he is glad to not be a girl.. that they have it harder in general.

In the examples given, how did women who were not yet adults "rise above" these adult issues. We are talking about the path from childhood to adulthood.

I fully support giving all marginalized groups extra supports to help them succeed, but that doesn't mean that a traditionally advantaged group might face some obstacles in early education.

It infuriates me to hear all of you privileged people talking about how your boys are doing fine. Guess what? Mine are too, but that's mostly because of my privilege in being able to provide tutoring, extra supports, programs to help them explore their interests, etc. Did all of you kids do their college applications all by themselves without any parental support? Half of you probably hired college consultants.

My point is that many boys don't have these extra opportunities and supports. But more than that, my concern is about how the current system causes boys to view themselves in a negative way. In this regard, I worry more about boys of color. Yes, it's good to be diligent and to always complete your homework beginning at a young age. But not everyone has that ability when the system demands it. All children need to be build up, not beaten down. That's how healthy adults of all genders and races are formed. Support, belief, and encouragement should be built into the system and it's not.

you have no idea to whom you are responding to.

I grew up low income. My brother went into the military and then to a public ivy from there.

Privileged? OK, I mean I had parents but they didn't speak any English, couldn't help us navigate anything, and were uneducated.

If any child, boy or girl, has some SN that requires supports, sure, that should be provided.

Are you saying that the ALL of these boys who can't complete a college application with the required information are all SN? Or are many just floundering because they don't realize that you need a good paying job to get by?

The previous system wasn't working for different groups, yet those groups figured it out.

I don't see many colleges preferring females over males. Quite the opposite. If you are a male, you seem to get a boost.

The article isn't about what colleges do. It's more about general . . . purposelessness of a generation.

And no, groups didn't figure it out. That's why we have all of the supports in place for marginalized groups. Or are you a pull yourself by your bootstraps Republican who blames minorities for not getting further ahead?

I am a minority and female. There were no supports when I went to college back in the 80s. I had to figure it out on my own. Not even my parents could help me since they didn't speak any English nor were they educated.

Stop coddling young men. You are not helping them. I have seen what coddling young men can do. It's not pretty.

So you are a Repblican?

What does politics have to do with this? You don't think there are liberals who think these young men have no grit? I voted for Biden. So did my spouse, and my spouse feels the same way I do.

Are you a liberal? Do liberals not have any fortitude or grit?

Yep, I was right. A Republican.

I'm one of those old-school liberals who doesn't think that teaching "grit" should be an excuse for a system that doesn't meet the needs of those it serves. It's always worth examining whether there is more at play than simply lazy, video-game obsessed young males. But obviously most people in this form would prefer to live by their winners and losers worldview without examining if there are ways we could do better for our youth.

? you have reading comprehension issues.

I'm an Independent. Spouse is a liberal. Once again.. both voted for Biden.

Most people realize that life is tough, and you have to toughen up a bit. I teach my kids to not blame others for their failures, and that if something is hard, then you have two choices: 1. give up or 2. try harder.

It's also worth examining how many of these so called "lost boys" are just lazy or the parents failed at launching them into adulthood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP— why should the rules be different for white males than everyone else on college admissions? I have yet to see any concrete explanation except video game addiction, which is the least compelling excuse ever for academic underperformance.

Now change "white male" to "POC" and the rules will be different.

The article stated that this is a problem for males of all races, not just white males. So do we just throw our hands up and say "They play too many video games! They are all working in the trades!" because some of those affected are white males?

[Anonymous]

Video game addiction. Vape/weed. Porn.

Laugh all you want but this is the truth. Boys as young as 4 and 5 become addicted to video games, then in their teens find vape and weed, then instead of seeking a girlfriend, then simply jerk off to porn stars.

I have quite a few 20-somethings in my family who look 20-something but act as if they stopped maturing at literally 13 or 14 years old.

Not only can they not focus on school because they have no attention span, they literally don't care about the high dating status academic success and a well-regarded career can bring. Why? Because they can simply jerk off to gorgeous babes on porno websites.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Considering the VAST majority of people in power are White males (CEOs, business leaders, politicians, etc.) your post makes zero sense.

That's changing rapidly. People in power tend to be older (takes a while to build experience) and they are retiring and other peopel are filling their roles.

Look at MCPS:
https://bethesdamagazine.com/bethesda-beat/opinion/opinion-its-time-to-honor-heroic-efforts-to-educate-students-during-a-pandemic-year/

Board of Ed: 100% female
Union Presidents: 100% female
Teachers: 80% female
Principals: 66% female
Support workers: 66% female

Everyone position from the very top on down to the very bottom is majority female.

Are you being purposely obtuse? Women have always been in teaching. When we talk about in power let’s talk about Fortune 500.

Stats as of 6/21 - With 41 women on the Fortune 500 list, women leaders hold just 8.1% of Fortune 500 CEO spots.

Fortune 500 CEOs tend to be old because of the experience needed. They went to college back when colleges were indeed male-dominated. That's rapidly changing at those people retire and die off.

Look at small businesses, 39% of all privately-held businesses are women-owned:
https://www.nawbo.org/resources/women-business-owner-statistics

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Video game addiction. Vape/weed. Porn.

Laugh all you want but this is the truth. Boys as young as 4 and 5 become addicted to video games, then in their teens find vape and weed, then instead of seeking a girlfriend, then simply jerk off to porn stars.

I have quite a few 20-somethings in my family who look 20-something but act as if they stopped maturing at literally 13 or 14 years old.

Not only can they not focus on school because they have no attention span, they literally don't care about the high dating status academic success and a well-regarded career can bring. Why? Because they can simply jerk off to gorgeous babes on porno websites.

So.. blame men or fix the problem?

[Anonymous]

Modern video games are no different than how the evil Brits dumped opium on the Chinese. It's warfare on a nation, in this case an entire gender.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Video game addiction. Vape/weed. Porn.

Laugh all you want but this is the truth. Boys as young as 4 and 5 become addicted to video games, then in their teens find vape and weed, then instead of seeking a girlfriend, they simply jerk off to porn stars.

I have quite a few 20-somethings in my family who look 20-something but act as if they stopped maturing at literally 13 or 14 years old.

Not only can they not focus on school because they have no attention span, they literally don't care about the high dating status academic success and a well-regarded career can bring. Why? Because they can simply jerk off to gorgeous babes on porno websites.

So.. blame men or fix the problem?

You think this collection of sellout parasitic hacks on The Hill would ever ban porn and video games for everyone under 18? As if.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP— why should the rules be different for white males than everyone else on college admissions? I have yet to see any concrete explanation except video game addiction, which is the least compelling excuse ever for academic underperformance.

Now change "white male" to "POC" and the rules will be different.

The article stated that this is a problem for males of all races, not just white males. So do we just throw our hands up and say "They play too many video games! They are all working in the trades!" because some of those affected are white males?

Since you are so concerned about POC, I’m sure you are equally concerned that white men earn significantly more than women and POC doing the same job.

Large racial and gender wage gaps in the U.S. remain, even as they have narrowed in some cases over the years. Among full- and part-time workers in the U.S., blacks in 2015 earned just 75% as much as whites in median hourly earnings and women earned 83% as much as men.

In 2020, women earned 84% of what men earned, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of median hourly earnings of both full- and part-time workers. ... The U.S. Census Bureau has also analyzed the gender pay gap, though its analysis looks only at full-time workers (as opposed to full- and part-time workers).May 25, 2021”

Or do you just throw up your hands up and say oh, well doesn’t affect my son?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Video game addiction. Vape/weed. Porn.

Laugh all you want but this is the truth. Boys as young as 4 and 5 become addicted to video games, then in their teens find vape and weed, then instead of seeking a girlfriend, then simply jerk off to porn stars.

I have quite a few 20-somethings in my family who look 20-something but act as if they stopped maturing at literally 13 or 14 years old.

Not only can they not focus on school because they have no attention span, they literally don't care about the high dating status academic success and a well-regarded career can bring. Why? Because they can simply jerk off to gorgeous babes on porno websites.

but at some point, they will become incels, and blame women for not wanting to date them.

Even if video game is the problem, what should be done about it? Blame the parents. My kids don't have an xbox, and when my DS got addicted to computer gaming when he was 12, I cut him off cold turkey. He can now manage it better. Straight A student in magnet, and still finds time to play on computer games but also socializes.

IMO, this is a parenting failure in a lot of ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Good news for sons, now more spots for boys available as schools seek gender balance (even if they won't talk about it)

Other than a small number of tech schools, most private college have been doing affirmative action for boys since the early 2000; at my non-ivy private circa 2003, boys had incoming GPAs significantly lower than girls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Considering the VAST majority of people in power are White males (CEOs, business leaders, politicians, etc.) your post makes zero sense.

That's changing rapidly. People in power tend to be older (takes a while to build experience) and they are retiring and other peopel are filling their roles.

Look at MCPS:
https://bethesdamagazine.com/bethesda-beat/opinion/opinion-its-time-to-honor-heroic-efforts-to-educate-students-during-a-pandemic-year/

Board of Ed: 100% female
Union Presidents: 100% female
Teachers: 80% female
Principals: 66% female
Support workers: 66% female

Everyone position from the very top on down to the very bottom is majority female.

Are you being purposely obtuse? Women have always been in teaching. When we talk about in power let’s talk about Fortune 500.

Stats as of 6/21 - With 41 women on the Fortune 500 list, women leaders hold just 8.1% of Fortune 500 CEO spots.

Fortune 500 CEOs tend to be old because of the experience needed. They went to college back when colleges were indeed male-dominated. That's rapidly changing at those people retire and die off.

Look at small businesses, 39% of all privately-held businesses are women-owned:
https://www.nawbo.org/resources/women-business-owner-statistics

Soooo interesting that you quote an increase in women small business owners… Guess why? Because they made their businesses a success by themselves - they didn’t have to climb a corporate ladder that has traditionally held them back. There are plenty of CEOs/CFOs that are in their late 40s/early fifties (my age) when women were going to college in equal numbers to men. And no, that’s not “rapidly changing” - women represent less than 10% of the Fortune 500 CEOs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a little surprised that no one has pointed out yet that the WSJ in the past few years has become a Trump Republican mouthpiece. I'm very skeptical of ANYTHING that they print.

My son (who has ADHD and loves video games) was admitted to 100% of the colleges he applied to and is doing great. Same with all his friends. Same with my nephew. Not quite sure where this sense of grievance is coming from, but I'm really skeptical of anything that WSJ tells me about it.

There is a paywall, so I couldn't read the article, but I gotta say this whole "the system has failed me" stuff sounds a whole lot like the misandry nonsense that I've been hearing forever wherein anti-social loser men claim to be "lost" because they aren't allowed to abuse women and make racist jokes anymore. As a middle aged white guy who recently went through a job search, I don't find the world hard for men. It's certainly far easier for me than for women in my life or the people of color I know.

Interesting, because my young for his grade son, who also was admitted to every college he applied to and loves video games, will be the first to tell you that he doesn't speak up in class - ever - because he is afraid he will say something wrong and realizes that, regardless, his perspective isn't welcome. He doesn't feel sorry for himself. He accepts this as truth.

My younger son, who also gets good grades now that he is older, feels the same. I can assure you that neither boy is racist, woman hating, or even self-pitying. They are actually pretty insightful.

+1
Yep. Same experience here. Not self-pity, but definitely eyes wide open.

I asked my white son about this. This has not been his experience. My kid is pretty active in race and gender relations stuff at school and has actually be asked to participate more -- attend more meetings, meet with faculty, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Video game addiction. Vape/weed. Porn.

Laugh all you want but this is the truth. Boys as young as 4 and 5 become addicted to video games, then in their teens find vape and weed, then instead of seeking a girlfriend, then simply jerk off to porn stars.

I have quite a few 20-somethings in my family who look 20-something but act as if they stopped maturing at literally 13 or 14 years old.

Not only can they not focus on school because they have no attention span, they literally don't care about the high dating status academic success and a well-regarded career can bring. Why? Because they can simply jerk off to gorgeous babes on porno websites.

but at some point, they will become incels, and blame women for not wanting to date them.

Even if video game is the problem, what should be done about it? Blame the parents. My kids don't have an xbox, and when my DS got addicted to computer gaming when he was 12, I cut him off cold turkey. He can now manage it better. Straight A student in magnet, and still finds time to play on computer games but also socializes.

IMO, this is a parenting failure in a lot of ways.

There isn't a word more cringe and more astroturfed than "incel". Anyone who uses this derogatory word shows themselves to be an easily brainwashed dipsh*t. With a 50/50 gender mix, you realize for every "incel," there's a "femcel", right? I know your peabrain will claim that's not true, that "high-status" males are procreating and sleeping with dozens of women. No. That's not real life. Do you work in a large office? I do. Late 20s and 30-something gals are terminally single and childless at an alarming rate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a little surprised that no one has pointed out yet that the WSJ in the past few years has become a Trump Republican mouthpiece. I'm very skeptical of ANYTHING that they print.

My son (who has ADHD and loves video games) was admitted to 100% of the colleges he applied to and is doing great. Same with all his friends. Same with my nephew. Not quite sure where this sense of grievance is coming from, but I'm really skeptical of anything that WSJ tells me about it.

There is a paywall, so I couldn't read the article, but I gotta say this whole "the system has failed me" stuff sounds a whole lot like the misandry nonsense that I've been hearing forever wherein anti-social loser men claim to be "lost" because they aren't allowed to abuse women and make racist jokes anymore. As a middle aged white guy who recently went through a job search, I don't find the world hard for men. It's certainly far easier for me than for women in my life or the people of color I know.

Interesting, because my young for his grade son, who also was admitted to every college he applied to and loves video games, will be the first to tell you that he doesn't speak up in class - ever - because he is afraid he will say something wrong and realizes that, regardless, his perspective isn't welcome. He doesn't feel sorry for himself. He accepts this as truth.

My younger son, who also gets good grades now that he is older, feels the same. I can assure you that neither boy is racist, woman hating, or even self-pitying. They are actually pretty insightful.

+1
Yep. Same experience here. Not self-pity, but definitely eyes wide open.

I asked my white son about this. This has not been his experience. My kid is pretty active in race and gender relations stuff at school and has actually be asked to participate more -- attend more meetings, meet with faculty, etc.

I am a college professor and I don't see it either. I am a woman, POC, and teach history to all majors but more STEM than humanities. My male students, both white and POC, feel comfortable expressing themselves in class, which often involves discussions of gender, class, race, politics, etc. in the US. However, I have noticed that female students are, in general, more organized than male students. In other words, they are better students, not smarter, but better able to meet academic expectations such as studying, handing in assignments on time, managing course loads, etc.