S/O Why do you care if moms stay home?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if one half of a lesbian couple chooses to stay home with the kids?

I'm from San Francisco, so I know a lot of gay and lesbian couples. Usually there are two working parents in these scenarios, but perhaps that is because of the obscene cost of living in SF (and the obscene cost of reproductive medicine, surrogacy, and adoption), and because to some extent, SF employers tend to be much more progressive about childcare issues (for example, the big tech firms have on-site daycare--it is expensive but it's right there on site--and extended adoption/parental leave).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if one half of a lesbian couple chooses to stay home with the kids?

I don’t know a lot of lesbian couples with kids, but every one that I do know has super traditional roles with one person staying at home with kids and one person acting as the breadwinner.
Maybe if you take all of the anxiety about gender roles and the patriarchy out of it and just do what makes sense for your family, this is it.

As a lesbian with a kid, I think if you look at the choices made by lesbian parents it can help bring the structural factors that shape our choices into focus. Among couples I know:

1. Two professional equal earners happy in their jobs/each took half time maternity leave and then used full time paid childcare (this was me and my spouse)
2. One person has a high paying professional job with benefits, the other person has an hourly low wage job (low wage person become SAHM)
3. Two professionals, but one was a trailing spouse. After relocation it made sense for the trailing spouse to stay home with the baby rather than restart career with a baby at home.
4. One professional with solid job and benefits, spouse works parttime with flexible hours and they fill in with hourly childcare. Spouse may identify as a SAHM or WOHM depending on the crowd.
5. One person has a high paying job but variable salary, the other person has a lower paying job with good benefits, both continued working and they used full time childcare.
6. Two professional workers, one always dreamed of being SAH, so they agreed that she would SAH until the last child is in K.
7. One spouse works a job with regular m-f hours, the other spouse does 2 or 3 12s on the weekend or overnight and then takes on childcare during the day so they have no childcare costs.
8. One spouse really wanted to SAH but the other spouse got laid off, so they swapped roles.


I think lesbian couples tend to align more with the expectations of their socioeconomic community and structural realities about how to use the resources they have. When we had our child, we were both young in our careers making low professional salaries. It made sense for us to pay for childcare and keep working. Now that my spouse makes more than double what I do with good benefits, I might make a different choice. I also think there are many more women in between SAH and WOH than we usually recognize. Thankfully most of us find a way to make peace with the choices we have but don't go so far as needing to tear each other down about different choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if one half of a lesbian couple chooses to stay home with the kids?

I'm from San Francisco, so I know a lot of gay and lesbian couples. Usually there are two working parents in these scenarios, but perhaps that is because of the obscene cost of living in SF (and the obscene cost of reproductive medicine, surrogacy, and adoption), and because to some extent, SF employers tend to be much more progressive about childcare issues (for example, the big tech firms have on-site daycare--it is expensive but it's right there on site--and extended adoption/parental leave).

I will also add that the community of gay parents and their supporters is very strong here so emergency childcare/pickups, etc. almost seem to be less of an issue for most gay couples, haha. Gay couples and immigrants with extended family have great networks of childcare...it's the straight people who moved from out of town to SF that struggle the most with finding emergency childcare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why are the WOHMs so unhappy? You guys won and are emancipated. You are fulfilled, rich, healthy. Your kids are doing great. No need to justify yourself. You can easily opt out of this great debate that you have started. You feel free to applaud yourself, ok? Why do you want SAHMs to applaud you too?

Your post is clearly designed to poke a hornets nest. This thread was started with a loaded question that assumes Working moms have a problem with SAHMs Read most of the responses. They don’t. You start with another: why are working moms so unhappy? Stop with the stereotypes and generalizations.

Working moms don’t need you validation or your false concern. SAHMs don’t need validation. Stop with your nonsense.

[Anonymous]

There are so many factors that contribute to unhappiness. There are happy working moms and unhappy working moms. Happy stay at home moms and unhappy stay at home moms. I don't think the stay at home or working decision is what makes them happy or unhappy. Sure, it's a factor, but humans are complex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never jump into these stupid debates and did not read the prior posts, but for this one I have to, because the OP betrays the total ignorance about history, women's rights, and the role of women in society.

It is not just about what you, Cindy Lou, decide to do with your career once you have kids. It's about the bigger picture, and the fact that when women are not able to, for various reasons, combine career with family, or when we collectively as a society start to spin a narrative that children are hurt when women work, then women feel pressured to drop out, or guilted into dropping out, or forced into it, and then women (and children) suffer the consequences, for example:

-when you have only male OB/GYNs who force you into c-sections and many other procedures because of a lack of understanding or care for what women face
-when there is less money given in the budget process of government to education, or protection for families, because men typically value these things less
-- when you get no paid maternity leave because CEOs are all men and so are the legislators
-- when scientists run studies only on male subjects because they assume women are the same
-- when rape kids go untouched because it's simply not a priority for police departments (mostly male)
-when you have no access to birth control because male legislators don't value it

I could go on and on. All of the above is part of our history and was part of our reality for hundreds/thousands of years. This is why women have fought to be in the workplace. So when SAHMs start talking about "who cares when women aren't part of the workforce," well that is just completely stupid.

Mic drop, girl. And this is the fundamental issue I have with SAHMs. They are so freaking selfish and narrow-minded. THIS IS WHAT THE WOMEN WHO CAME BEFORE US FOUGHT FOR. but they can’t see the societal consequences (which you so brilliantly outlined).

Eye roll. This feminist crap makes me ill.

That's because you are selfish.

eh, you've just substituted where a woman's place is. It used to be that a woman's place was in the home. Now, you're saying that the only valid place for a woman is on the job.

You are just as rigid in your views towards women but you're not seeing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) it doesn’t affect me on a personal level, but make no mistake it affects me from the level that when they retire, they haven’t paid into the system for however many years. Just coatailling their husband and taking money working people have put into the system through FICA.
Claiming to have “the most important and hardest” job in the world. Sorry babe, once your kids are in elementary school, you are living a life of leisure, stop pretending otherwise.
2) I don’t care other than believing they are lazy and persist on continuing the stereotype of dependence on men versus contributing to equality.

This exactly. I believe that they are bringing all women down by allowing companies to justify the fact that all women quit when they have kids etc. Even worse when they have daughters and push them so hard academically. SAHMs of a daughter at a fancy private school? And they don’t even see the hypocrisy.

Goes double for those who have degrees from fancy institutions that could’ve gone to someone who would actually use them.

Its not hypocrotical at all for the SAHMs that are home temporarily. I worked before kids, took a hiatus for 6 yrs and am re-entering the workforce this month in which I will be working the rest of my life (till retirement, whenever that happens). Taking 6 yrs off in the grand scheme of it all, is not hypocritical at all. Its called spending different seasons of my life doing different things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never jump into these stupid debates and did not read the prior posts, but for this one I have to, because the OP betrays the total ignorance about history, women's rights, and the role of women in society.

It is not just about what you, Cindy Lou, decide to do with your career once you have kids. It's about the bigger picture, and the fact that when women are not able to, for various reasons, combine career with family, or when we collectively as a society start to spin a narrative that children are hurt when women work, then women feel pressured to drop out, or guilted into dropping out, or forced into it, and then women (and children) suffer the consequences, for example:

-when you have only male OB/GYNs who force you into c-sections and many other procedures because of a lack of understanding or care for what women face
-when there is less money given in the budget process of government to education, or protection for families, because men typically value these things less
-- when you get no paid maternity leave because CEOs are all men and so are the legislators
-- when scientists run studies only on male subjects because they assume women are the same
-- when rape kids go untouched because it's simply not a priority for police departments (mostly male)
-when you have no access to birth control because male legislators don't value it

I could go on and on. All of the above is part of our history and was part of our reality for hundreds/thousands of years. This is why women have fought to be in the workplace. So when SAHMs start talking about "who cares when women aren't part of the workforce," well that is just completely stupid.

Mic drop, girl. And this is the fundamental issue I have with SAHMs. They are so freaking selfish and narrow-minded. THIS IS WHAT THE WOMEN WHO CAME BEFORE US FOUGHT FOR. but they can’t see the societal consequences (which you so brilliantly outlined).

Eye roll. This feminist crap makes me ill.

That's because you are selfish.

eh, you've just substituted where a woman's place is. It used to be that a woman's place was in the home. Now, you're saying that the only valid place for a woman is on the job.

You are just as rigid in your views towards women but you're not seeing it.

No, I’m not. You are over-reaching. I was responding only to the “feminism makes me ill” PP. Never said anything about a woman’s place. I find women and men who give no thought to anything but themselves and their immediate families nauseating. That selfishness is the root of so many societal ills, more than just women’s rights.

[Anonymous]

I don’t care that some people SAHM. I expect the same and not getting judgement for WOHM. I also expect that we live and let live about expectations. I don’t bake things for the bake sale at school but I appreciate the people who organize it and the warmth and spirit it adds. I buy a lot of baked goods at the sales. I also hope that SAHMs will try to coordinate with me on play dates and try to find a time to either meet with my nanny during the week or find a time on weekends. In SAHM families in my experience the Dad usually does the playdates on weekends and of course that is totally cool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never jump into these stupid debates and did not read the prior posts, but for this one I have to, because the OP betrays the total ignorance about history, women's rights, and the role of women in society.

It is not just about what you, Cindy Lou, decide to do with your career once you have kids. It's about the bigger picture, and the fact that when women are not able to, for various reasons, combine career with family, or when we collectively as a society start to spin a narrative that children are hurt when women work, then women feel pressured to drop out, or guilted into dropping out, or forced into it, and then women (and children) suffer the consequences, for example:

-when you have only male OB/GYNs who force you into c-sections and many other procedures because of a lack of understanding or care for what women face
-when there is less money given in the budget process of government to education, or protection for families, because men typically value these things less
-- when you get no paid maternity leave because CEOs are all men and so are the legislators
-- when scientists run studies only on male subjects because they assume women are the same
-- when rape kids go untouched because it's simply not a priority for police departments (mostly male)
-when you have no access to birth control because male legislators don't value it

I could go on and on. All of the above is part of our history and was part of our reality for hundreds/thousands of years. This is why women have fought to be in the workplace. So when SAHMs start talking about "who cares when women aren't part of the workforce," well that is just completely stupid.

Mic drop, girl. And this is the fundamental issue I have with SAHMs. They are so freaking selfish and narrow-minded. THIS IS WHAT THE WOMEN WHO CAME BEFORE US FOUGHT FOR. but they can’t see the societal consequences (which you so brilliantly outlined).

Eye roll. This feminist crap makes me ill.

That's because you are selfish.

eh, you've just substituted where a woman's place is. It used to be that a woman's place was in the home. Now, you're saying that the only valid place for a woman is on the job.

You are just as rigid in your views towards women but you're not seeing it.

No, I’m not. You are over-reaching. I was responding only to the “feminism makes me ill” PP. Never said anything about a woman’s place. I find women and men who give no thought to anything but themselves and their immediate families nauseating. That selfishness is the root of so many societal ills, more than just women’s rights.

You basically are saying that you don't believe that women should be able to make the decision to SAH because that is selfish of them. I think that women are smart enough to figure these things out for themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t care that some people SAHM. I expect the same and not getting judgement for WOHM. I also expect that we live and let live about expectations. I don’t bake things for the bake sale at school but I appreciate the people who organize it and the warmth and spirit it adds. I buy a lot of baked goods at the sales. I also hope that SAHMs will try to coordinate with me on play dates and try to find a time to either meet with my nanny during the week or find a time on weekends. In SAHM families in my experience the Dad usually does the playdates on weekends and of course that is totally cool.

I totally agree. FWIW, I've worked bake sales from time to time and there seems to be an even mix of SAHPs, WAHPs and WOHMs involved in those fund raisers. They are easy to organize and are a simple way to bring money in. I think there are parents who do bake sales and those that do not. It's not really a SAHM or WOHM issue.

Play dates are usually hosted by the moms. Dads will take kids to the playground or swimming pool to play with the neighborhood kids who happen to be there. There are exceptions, but that is usually the way it works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I never jump into these stupid debates and did not read the prior posts, but for this one I have to, because the OP betrays the total ignorance about history, women's rights, and the role of women in society.

It is not just about what you, Cindy Lou, decide to do with your career once you have kids. It's about the bigger picture, and the fact that when women are not able to, for various reasons, combine career with family, or when we collectively as a society start to spin a narrative that children are hurt when women work, then women feel pressured to drop out, or guilted into dropping out, or forced into it, and then women (and children) suffer the consequences, for example:

-when you have only male OB/GYNs who force you into c-sections and many other procedures because of a lack of understanding or care for what women face
-when there is less money given in the budget process of government to education, or protection for families, because men typically value these things less
-- when you get no paid maternity leave because CEOs are all men and so are the legislators
-- when scientists run studies only on male subjects because they assume women are the same
-- when rape kids go untouched because it's simply not a priority for police departments (mostly male)
-when you have no access to birth control because male legislators don't value it

I could go on and on. All of the above is part of our history and was part of our reality for hundreds/thousands of years. This is why women have fought to be in the workplace. So when SAHMs start talking about "who cares when women aren't part of the workforce," well that is just completely stupid.

SAHM's don't have a problem with women in the workforce. They just don't want to be in the workforce. They don't mind that you do. The world will keep on turning if SOME women don't enter the workforce. I guarantee you that zero men make work decisions based on what's better for society. It's all about #1 as it should be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never jump into these stupid debates and did not read the prior posts, but for this one I have to, because the OP betrays the total ignorance about history, women's rights, and the role of women in society.

It is not just about what you, Cindy Lou, decide to do with your career once you have kids. It's about the bigger picture, and the fact that when women are not able to, for various reasons, combine career with family, or when we collectively as a society start to spin a narrative that children are hurt when women work, then women feel pressured to drop out, or guilted into dropping out, or forced into it, and then women (and children) suffer the consequences, for example:

-when you have only male OB/GYNs who force you into c-sections and many other procedures because of a lack of understanding or care for what women face
-when there is less money given in the budget process of government to education, or protection for families, because men typically value these things less
-- when you get no paid maternity leave because CEOs are all men and so are the legislators
-- when scientists run studies only on male subjects because they assume women are the same
-- when rape kids go untouched because it's simply not a priority for police departments (mostly male)
-when you have no access to birth control because male legislators don't value it

I could go on and on. All of the above is part of our history and was part of our reality for hundreds/thousands of years. This is why women have fought to be in the workplace. So when SAHMs start talking about "who cares when women aren't part of the workforce," well that is just completely stupid.

I appreciate everything you said, but none of it would make it possible for me to put my 4-month-old in daycare. There is something primal/emotional in me that will not let someone else be my infant/toddler’s primary caregiver. It’s not guilt or worry - it’s just a deep desire to be with her. Do I think these are all good arguments to return to work when she’s like 5? yes. Also, remember that I vote for all the policies you suggested, even if I’m not currently working. And really, what is to stop someone from taking a couple years off from their medical practice, for ex, and then returning when her kids are in preschool? I mean, even Nancy Pelosi was a sahm for awhile....

I'm the PP that you quoted. I get the primal desire to be with your kids, I also stayed home when my kids were very young, my post is more about people who leave the workforce entirely or who seem to think that there are no consequences down the line if women on the whole start dropping their careers because they're conned into thinking they have to or they can't combine the two.

Women *on the whole* aren't dropping their careers. Only some women are. And that's OK.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) it doesn’t affect me on a personal level, but make no mistake it affects me from the level that when they retire, they haven’t paid into the system for however many years. Just coatailling their husband and taking money working people have put into the system through FICA.
Claiming to have “the most important and hardest” job in the world. Sorry babe, once your kids are in elementary school, you are living a life of leisure, stop pretending otherwise.
2) I don’t care other than believing they are lazy and persist on continuing the stereotype of dependence on men versus contributing to equality.

This exactly. I believe that they are bringing all women down by allowing companies to justify the fact that all women quit when they have kids etc. Even worse when they have daughters and push them so hard academically. SAHMs of a daughter at a fancy private school? And they don’t even see the hypocrisy.

Goes double for those who have degrees from fancy institutions that could’ve gone to someone who would actually use them.

Oh, wow. The ignorance factor is off the charts here.

[Anonymous]

This subject makes my head spin. I will never fathom why someone not in my immediate family would care whether I SAH with my own kids. Unreal and so, so insecure.